Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[Com Fox]

That has to be one of the dumbest things I've read in a long time...

I've seen Anime protagonists make wiser decisions than Elon Musk here

 

[inCloud]

Why not? There's no evidence of the contrary

The burden of proof rests on the plaintiff or the person filing the suit.

But what about 6 previous years? It wasn't 1 year ago when this war began.
I'm not saying it strictly meets the definition of genocide, but neither the Russian actions in Ukraine do.

It was always Putins war. Russian mercs, russian weapons, russian speaking nationalists that beat **** out of those who wasn't ok with separatism. There are reasons why ordinary people in Odessa, Kharkiv, Mariupol dont want to be in DPR/LPR and choosing nationalists from Azov instead of russian saviours.

I know merc who was in DPR, know how Russian officials recruit young guys here in 2016.

And when conflict was almost over Putin reignite it by throwing at Ukranians our army.

 

[Scaff]

You missed the point - I mean the actual Nazi collaborators of WW2. I don't remember any street in Russia named after Andrey Vlasov or Bronislav Kaminski, or any monuments of them placed. People who publicly glorify historic personalities like these two don't walk free for too long in Russia.

Umm, have you heard about a bloke called Stalin, he was kinda big in your neck of the woods, responsible for the murder of millions. I think you need to lock up circa 51% of Russians.

Regarding the Wagner PMC, I know they aren't the most humane on the battlefield, but all we know about their alleged Nazi ideology is the tatoos on Utkin's body. Unlike the Azov commander Biletsky who publicly expressed his ideas.

Alleged! That's hypocritical handwaving of the highest order.

How many non-neo-nazis do you know with Nazi tattoos?

 

[Joey D]

Okay, what intelligence is telling Putin is going to move further into Europe, where most countries are NATO members?

Western Europe and the US intelligence agencies. I mean Poland is rightfully worried as are the Baltic countries. Given Putin's complete lack of foresight, I'm more inclined to believe the intelligence now more than ever.

Sorry if I'm wrong, but I feel like your standards of genocide differ depending on whether the victims are Russians or not. Earlier, you accused Russia of genocide of Georgians and Chechens (although the "genocided" Chechens are still there and they're fighting for Russia now) and you now accuse RF of genocide of Ukriainains, but massive civilian casualties in Donbass don't count as genocide for you. Can you explain how you decide what is genocide and what is not?

Genocide - noun - The mass killing or displacement of a group of people belonging to the same nation, culture, or ethnic group. The Russian did commit genocide in Georgia and Chechnya, the European Court of Human Rights has rulings on it. I know you're not going to accept it though for whatever reason. I have no idea how the Georgia and Chechnyan conflicts were disseminated in Russian when they were going on, but if it's anything like how Russia is passing along the information about Ukraine, I can only imagine.

I'm not really sure how you could even consider Donbas a genocide. The people there have their own republic now, even if it's a sham republic, but typically people who are undergoing genocide don't end up with their own country during the claimed genocide. As I've said more than once though, Ukraine likely committed war crimes in Donbas. That doesn't erase or excuse Russia from committing war crimes in Ukraine. It also doesn't erase or excuse Ukraine from answering for those crimes.

With regards to standards of genocide being whether their Russian or not seems like an odd thing to say. I don't really give much thought to Russians since, for the most part, I assume they're just people living their life. So I'm not cheering when they get killed. The civilian causalities in Donbas were likely Russian and Ukrainian alike and per the best source I can find (the UN), the number of deaths is under 4,000 and more than half of that occurred in 2014. Since 2016 there have been less than 400 civilian casualties.

And there's no need for that "Putin-aid drinker" thing. You don't need to be a Putinist to acknowledge the anti-Russian violence in east Ukraine. I know quite many people (including political activists) who are openly anti-Putin but support the Russian rebellion in Donbass. And we can have a respectful discussion, without falling to personal attacks.

You've parroted categorically false information and claims that only hold weight in the Russian media and several people have called you out on it. Case-in-point being the bombing of the maternity hospital. If it really was a secret base for Nazis or whatever, don't you think at least one other source outside of Russia (and probably China) would've corroborated it? Look the AP News and Reuters don't have agendas, they report what happened, it's sort of their thing so if they report it, it's likely been confirmed by multiple sources. You can dismiss them as Western propaganda or whatever, but in terms of trustworthy news, it doesn't really get any more factual than those two outlets. If you were questioning sources like CNN or Fox News, then you may have a point since those sources do have an agenda.

 

[Scaff]

Russia doesn't glorify Stalin since 1956. Have you wondered why and when the city of Stalingrad became Volgograd? And during the Perestroika era (late '80s), the Soviet government officialy deplored the crimes of Stalinism such as collusion with Hitler (Molotov-Ribbentrop pact) and the Katyn massacre. You are wrong if you think Russia doesn't acknowledge the cruelty of Stalin's rule.

You borderline into outright missinformation now

Putin, once critical of Stalin, now embraces Soviet dictator's tactics

Only six years ago, President Vladimir Putin visited the Polish port of Gdansk, birthplace of the Solidarity movement that threw off Soviet domination, and reassured his Eastern European neighbors that Russia had only friendly intentions.

www.latimes.com

 

[Biggles]

And what are you trying to say by this? That Russia is still guilty in crimes of a Georgian terrorist? Or that Putin is responsible for them because he served in KGB?

Russia doesn't glorify Stalin since 1956. Have you wondered why and when the city of Stalingrad became Volgograd? And during the Perestroika era (late '80s), the Soviet government officialy deplored the crimes of Stalinism such as collusion with Hitler (Molotov-Ribbentrop pact) and the Katyn massacre. You are wrong if you think Russia doesn't acknowledge the cruelty of Stalin's rule.

Of course there are some people in Russia who believe Stalin was good and would want him back, but the government avoids even talking about Stalin or Lenin when it's not necessary.

What I'm trying to say is that although the situation is nowhere near as dire (so far) as it was during WWII, the scenario is developing in a similar way. What we are seeing is re-emergence of aggressive, militaristic nationalism which demonizes the other side - Putin tries to paint Ukrainians as "nazis" - in order to justify invasion & repression.

The Soviet government "officially" deplored the the crimes of Stalinism? Ok, but what we see is that Putin is essentially becoming another Stalin, killing or silencing all opponents & undermining the fragile democracy of Russia while drawing all power to himself & his cronies. As with Hitler, it is being done with the acquiescence of the majority of the Russian people who are distracted by propaganda about Ukrainian "nazis". We've seen it all before quite recently in the Balkans where people were convinced to demonize their neighbours based on perceived historical, ethnic or religious grievances.

 

[McLaren]

That woman "whom the AP has not been able to identify" looks similar to a beauty blogger ("krevvetochka" and "gixie_beauty" on Instagram), who is actually pregnant. On another photo, a very similarly looking woman is walking. But it's unlikely that she could be a patient there, because according to the locals, there were no patients inside - it's been used as a military outpost by the Azov soldiers.


So, I'd say it's highly likely to be staged. Of course I'm not 100% sure, but identifying that woman and checking if she actually dead or not would be necessary to verify.

You spouted all this when the article debunks it right off the bat.

Accused of attacking civilians, Russian officials claimed the maternity hospital had been taken over by Ukrainian extremists to use as a base, and that no patients or medics were left inside. Russia’s ambassador to the U.N. and the Russian Embassy in London falsely described the AP images as fakes.

Associated Press journalists, who have been reporting from inside blockaded Mariupol since early in the war, documented the attack and saw the victims and damage firsthand. They shot video and photos of several bloodstained, pregnant mothers fleeing the blown-out maternity ward as medical workers shouted and children cried.

The AP team tracked down some of the victims Friday and Saturday after they were transferred to another hospital on the outskirts of Mariupol. The port city on the Sea of Azov has been without supplies of food, water, power or heat for more than a week. Electricity from emergency generators is reserved for operating rooms.

As survivors described their ordeal, explosions shook the walls, causing medical workers to flinch. Shelling and shooting in the area is sporadic but relentless. Emotions ran high, even as doctors and nurses focused on their work.

Hey all, here's a third pregnant woman saved. Guess she's also a model as has been the excuse now for the other 2.

A third pregnant woman seen by AP lost some of her toes in the bombing, and medical workers performed a cesarean section on her Friday.

Her baby was rubbed vigorously to stimulate any signs of life. After a few tense moments, the baby began to wail.

Cheers resonated through the room amid the cries of the girl, who was named Alana. Her mother also cried and the medical staff wiped tears from their own eyes.

 

[unit-one]

That woman "whom the AP has not been able to identify" looks similar to a beauty blogger ("krevvetochka" and "gixie_beauty" on Instagram), who is actually pregnant. On another photo, a very similarly looking woman is walking. But it's unlikely that she could be a patient there, because according to the locals, there were no patients inside - it's been used as a military outpost by the Azov soldiers.


So, I'd say it's highly likely to be staged. Of course I'm not 100% sure, but identifying that woman and checking if she actually dead or not would be necessary to verify.

The blogger lady survived and gave birth. The other lady that was carried on a stretcher died, her child could not be saved.

 

[SestoScudo]

Wagners are scumbags they are also implicated in the mass slaughter of Libyans in the city of Tarhuna.

Wagners and the Salafi Al Kani militia. I suggest people look it up. Al Kani brothers ruled a region in Libya like theit personal kingdom and they constantly switched sides until they fully came to back Haftar as they believed he was winning.

 

[Obelisk]

I hate that I'm not keeping up on this thread. I have friends in Europe that I'm worried about, on top of being worried about the fate of Ukraine in this conflict.

On the other hand, seeing the actions and choices being made by certain GTP members in this thread makes me relieved that I'm not actively trying to engage in this.

Incidentally, I'm not sure if it was reported in here, but Russian troops opened fire on a group of journalists and killed notable reporter Brent Renaud in Irpin over the past two days.

 

[inCloud]

Incidentally, I'm not sure if it was reported in here, but Russian troops opened fire on a group of journalists and killed notable reporter Brent Renaud in Irpin over the past two days.

Yeah, was reported. Also Russian officials said that it's not our fault.

Thats how news about women with banner looks in our news, insane:

 

[Milouse]

The tv-sign-woman made a video just before her action on the set.

 

[inCloud]

The tv-sign-woman made a video just before her action on the set.

Right now her layer can't find her.

 

[eran0004]

Okay, what intelligence is telling Putin is going to move further into Europe, where most countries are NATO members?

What makes you think he wouldn’t?

You missed the point - I mean the actual Nazi collaborators of WW2. I don't remember any street in Russia named after Andrey Vlasov or Bronislav Kaminski, or any monuments of them placed. People who publicly glorify historic personalities like these two don't walk free for too long in Russia.

Russia wasn’t occupied by Russia during WWII. In many parts of Eastern Europe the Germans were initially seen as liberators because they drove the Soviet occupiers away. It’s the whole “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” thing. In countries like Russia and Norway you don’t see this, because they weren’t previously occupied before the Germans arrived.

No, I'm NOT praising the invasion, I think it was a mistake.

It’s not a mistake, it is a crime.

But if you're talking about the communists, I agree with you here. The bolsheviks destroyed our country in 1917, and if I was the president, I'd continue the decommunization campaign and remove Lenin's body from the Red Square. The subject of this thread - Ukraine - is another Lenin's mistake. However, I'm not sure resolving it in the Putin's "decommunization & denazification" way is the best idea.

You’re not sure? Wow.

That woman "whom the AP has not been able to identify" looks similar to a beauty blogger ("krevvetochka" and "gixie_beauty" on Instagram), who is actually pregnant. On another photo, a very similarly looking woman is walking. But it's unlikely that she could be a patient there, because according to the locals, there were no patients inside - it's been used as a military outpost by the Azov soldiers.


So, I'd say it's highly likely to be staged. Of course I'm not 100% sure, but identifying that woman and checking if she actually dead or not would be necessary to verify.

Please point out what identical features you have identified in the two women you are referring to. Because I don’t see how they would be the same person.

The Azov battalion is tiny, yet Russia claims that they are everywhere. Every war crime committed by Russia is justified by “but Azov…”

Wake up, a government that is telling the truth is not afraid of free media and free speech. How many Russians must be sent to prison before you realise that?

 

[Tornado]

Okay, what intelligence is telling Putin is going to move further into Europe, where most countries are NATO members?

lmao Russia openly threatened Finland and Sweden almost immediately after the invasion started. They even posted it on their Twitter for Christ's sake.

 

[McLaren]

Yeah, was reported. Also Russian officials said that it's not our fault.

Thats how news about women with banner looks in our news, insane:
View attachment 1124393

The video of the Russian police arresting people was incredibly worrying. 1 woman arrested bc her sign translated to “Two Words”, another taken with nothing on her sign, & a third woman who was about to share what looked like an approval of the war taken just before she could speak to the camera.

 

[Milouse]

The video of the Russian police arresting people was incredibly worrying. 1 woman arrested bc her sign translated to “Two Words”, another taken with nothing on her sign, & a third woman who was about to share what looked like an approval of the war taken just before she could speak to the camera.

The video is almost comical. The last woman could learn something, at least.

 

[inCloud]

The video of the Russian police arresting people was incredibly worrying. 1 woman arrested bc her sign translated to “Two Words”, another taken with nothing on her sign, & a third woman who was about to share what looked like an approval of the war taken just before she could speak to the camera.

OMON grabbing literally everyone from the streets near protestors main location. Its acts of terror. Right now its political protest, but social protest incoming. Ban of Instagram(its not only social network, its workplace for thousands), thousands dead and injured soliders, inflation, shutdown of buisnes and de facto default are triggers of protest.

The video is almost comical. The last woman could learn something, at least.

She is known provoker.

 

[McLaren]

OMON grabbing literally everyone from the streets near protestors main location. Its acts of terror. Right now its political protest, but social protest incoming. Ban of Instagram(its not only social network, its workplace for thousands), thousands dead and injured soliders, inflation, shutdown of buisnes and de facto default are triggers of protest.

She is known provoker.

Is it still the case as a Redditor who got arrested weeks ago said, that only serious protestors will see jail time & others will be getting heavy fines (like I guess that known provoker who never said anything against the war)? Or have they adopted w/ treating everyone the same? I noticed them having 3-4 buses now on stand-by.

 

[Milouse]

She is known provoker

Wait. The one pretending to support the war? What's her name?

 

[inCloud]

Is it still the case as a Redditor who got arrested weeks ago said, that only serious protestors will see jail time & others will be getting heavy fines (like I guess that known provoker who never said anything against the war)? Or have they adopted w/ treating everyone the same? I noticed them having 3-4 buses now on stand-by.

All get arrested, than trial and fines mostly. They can't put in jail thousands of people at once - our penitentiary system cant consume as much. Fines, termination of employment or expulsion right now are most common sanctions for protests.

Wait. The one pretending to support the war? What's her name?

Site where I saw links to prof of that are down by government

 

[Touring Mars]

US diplomats fear that China may have already committed to providing Russia with economic aid, and may also start to provide military aid to Russia.

This would be a very serious blow to international efforts to contain Russian aggression, and IMHO will have a disastrous effect on Western relations with China.

China should be able to see what Russia is doing independently and make decisions accordingly, but alas China and Russia's ultimate goals are strategically aligned (to roll back Western power) and hence China have a vested interest in supporting Russia.

However, the consequences could be severe, with the EU, US, UK and others facing the grim prospect of China - and possibly India as well - undermining economic sanctions as well as emboldening Putin and Russian aggression in Europe.

If China does support Russia in this horrific war, the consequences for Chinese people living in the West could be severe. I think that most people in the West understand that the Russian people are being misled by state propaganda, but others who openly support Russia in spite of the evidence available to them elsewhere will likely be considered as complicit.

 

[McLaren]

From what I've read, China is using the idea of propping up Russia to sweeten their own pot with other countries. That they still prefer US/EU partnerships over what Russia brings, but the idea of maybe throwing a bone Russia's way is their strategy to negotiate any new deals.

 

[inCloud]

US diplomats fear that China may have already committed to providing Russia with economic aid, and may also start to provide military aid to Russia.

Don't think its cost effective, most likely they would backstab Kremlin soon.

Russia doesn't need military aid, they need infantry.

 

[Blitz24]

US diplomats fear that China may have already committed to providing Russia with economic aid, and may also start to provide military aid to Russia.

This would be a very serious blow to international efforts to contain Russian aggression, and IMHO will have a disastrous effect on Western relations with China.

China should be able to see what Russia is doing independently and make decisions accordingly, but alas China and Russia's ultimate goals are strategically aligned (to roll back Western power) and hence China have a vested interest in supporting Russia.

However, the consequences could be severe, with the EU, US, UK and others facing the grim prospect of China - and possibly India as well - undermining economic sanctions as well as emboldening Putin and Russian aggression in Europe.

If China does support Russia in this horrific war, the consequences for Chinese people living in the West could be severe. I think that most people in the West understand that the Russian people are being misled by state propaganda, but others who openly support Russia in spite of the evidence available to them elsewhere will likely be considered as complicit.

China wants Taiwan and wants the US and the West out of it. This aligns perfectly with Russia when it comes to Ukraine. Both essentially have a nuclear or near-nuclear power country in their orbit (North Korea and Iran respectively). That being said, I don't think China is willing to spurn everyone just yet against the West. They may wait for when there are too many "neutral" countries to help the US/EU before they strike.

 

[Jimlaad43]

I'm surprised though that China would get into it though. The West have put in place so many sanctions on Russia, and China makes so much money from the West that I'm surprised they'd consider risking getting similar sanctions placed on them. A cowardly attack on Taiwan will be viewed as dimly as this one on Ukraine and will ostracise the regime and Winnie the Pooh to the rest of the world.

The West is currently taking the hit from missing out on Russian oil and products, but they're probably more scared of having to do the same for a Chinese powerhouse they rely on more. China has got a strong monopoly on Africa too, which is the next place the West would want to look for natural resources and cheap labour if China becomes off-limits.

 

[Dotini]

The breakdown of the existing world order into a new Cold War of international rivalries seems quite possible. We could be in trouble if China and India line up with Russia.

 

[SestoScudo]

China is helping Russia because Russia helps China with its military industry.

May not be the best of friends but their whole relationship compared to the past has always been to contain USA and Nato ambitions.

China has been copping it lately and Russia has been one of the few countries to back China in the international world of politics.

China needs jet engines for their aircraft.

 

[Liquid]

It would be a scary partnership but I would guess that there absolutely would, eventually, be a Sino-Russian split much like there was a Sino-Soviet split; they won't be able to decide who gets the coffees.

 

[O604]

Gas is the only thing China needs from Russia. And they don't need as much anymore and are cashing in on electric. If they did need oil, in an alternate reality without options, they would have occupied areas of Russia already like they do all over the world. It's just been cheaper to just buy gas from Russia.

Putin and Xi are playing "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" game. But both are only in it for themselves. And both will need a place to run when their own population eventually turns on them.