Russian Invasion of Ukraine

  • Thread starter Rage Racer
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@Rage Racer

I think most people have been very tolerant of your viewpoint, few would argue that a perspective from within Russia doesn't have a value, and considering what's being inflicted upon Ukraine now, I think a lot of people are (rightfully) biting their tongue when conversing with you, we know it's not you that's doing this.. but no part of what you say justifies what happens.

You thought Russia wouldn't attack Ukraine, you thought NATO was going to attack you... the reality of NOW, is children are dying of thirst, hunger and exposure because YOUR government wants another Black sea port, there's no justification for this, the number of people displaced from their homes is ridiculous, the number of kids growing up KNOWING that their future was written off by YOUR LEADER, THAT YOU KEEP SUPPORTING, is getting more significant by the day.

How it started: YOU "IT'S JUST TRAINING EXERCISES"
How it's going: YOU "IT'S UKRAINES FAULT RUSSIA IS KILLING KIDS ON UKRAINIAN SOIL WITH STARVATION AND DEHYDRATION...

YOU went into THEIR COUNTRY to KILL them.. THAT is what you are defending, and you were naive enough to claim it was because NATO would invade?? When Moscow is surrounded, and your kinfolk face execution trying to escape, or death via cold, lonely starvation, perhaps people will accept you were right.. until then.. you ARE the bad guys.
 
Exorcet
Russia isn't at the top of military technology, but the country did inherit a lot from the USSR besides nuclear weapons. This war has shown that they're not as strong as they could be but I think part of it is a combination of lacking morale and military structure. The USSR was always built around defense rather offense. Unlike the US they suffered a large invasion in WWII and that shaped their thinking for the following decades up to today. The US had to support allies across the globe. Consequently US military doctrine grew into being able to fight anyone, anywhere, at any time. Russian doctrine was about making the homeland impenetrable. Ukraine as a former Soviet state inherited Soviet hardware which sets them up for defensive combat. This means Russia vs Ukraine is sort of a battle of turtles where the defender has an advantage. Then again, one might expect the bigger turtle to do better than it has.
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Russia everytime tried introduce new equipment either the production was slow or old equipment was kept in storage and modernised.

After the Soviets collapsed the Russians had all this equipment they did not know what to do.

They sold some, modernised and kept them in storage. Keeping in storage costs a lot of money.

Not to mention its not easy in phasing out old stuff it takes decades. Turkey today still uses m48s and m60s albeit in modernised forms.

Usa still uses Abrams tanks that got upgraded over time. Russia has accumluated too much Soviet stock also Russia gained even more with former Soviet countries handing over equipment to Russia.
 
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Instead of fighting head on the Ukrainians have been waging a war of attrition by targeting supply lines and Russian logistics. Ukraine fighting a head on battle would lead to more losses afterall they are fighting the second biggest army in the world they cant afford heavy losses.

Russia due to its logistics getting hit is also starting to play the war defensively as it tries to keep the gains it made.
 
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MatskiMonk
@Rage Racer

I think most people have been very tolerant of your viewpoint, few would argue that a perspective from within Russia doesn't have a value, and considering what's being inflicted upon Ukraine now, I think a lot of people are (rightfully) biting their tongue when conversing with you, we know it's not you that's doing this.. but no part of what you say justifies what happens.

You thought Russia wouldn't attack Ukraine, you thought NATO was going to attack you... the reality of NOW, is children are dying of thirst, hunger and exposure because YOUR government wants another Black sea port, there's no justification for this, the number of people displaced from their homes is ridiculous, the number of kids growing up KNOWING that their future was written off by YOUR LEADER, THAT YOU KEEP SUPPORTING, is getting more significant by the day.

How it started: YOU "IT'S JUST TRAINING EXERCISES"
How it's going: YOU "IT'S UKRAINES FAULT RUSSIA IS KILLING KIDS ON UKRAINIAN SOIL WITH STARVATION AND DEHYDRATION...

YOU went into THEIR COUNTRY to KILL them.. THAT is what you are defending, and you were naive enough to claim it was because NATO would invade?? When Moscow is surrounded, and your kinfolk face execution trying to escape, or death via cold, lonely starvation, perhaps people will accept you were right.. until then.. you ARE the bad guys.
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If you think I approve the decision of invading Ukraine, you are wrong. If I had the ability to rewind back in time, teleport into Kremlin and convince Putin not to do it, I'd use it. Yes, I thought Russia wouldn't attack, because I believed the consequences would be terrible and price uncceptable to the RF government (however, I posted a disclaimer earlier that I didn't pretend to be 100% correct in my predictions). Perhaps I underestimated the losses they were willing to accept.

But in no circumstances I will be rooting for the current government of Ukraine (the anti-Russian regime that did its best to alienate the largest ethnic minority in the country, and that is also responsible for this whole mess). Of course I feel bad for the innocent people of Ukraine, some of whom are my friends on Internet (or were - some of them just cut all contacts with everyone from Russia). Just don't forget that this whole story does have a context. This war didn't start a month ago. It's going on since 2014, but now it's in a new phase. A phase that may put a decisive end on this conflict. Or not. We are witnesses of history being written...

I don't divide anyone into "good" or "bad" guys. It's just "we" and "them" to me. No side is innocent and fluffy here. So, condemn me if you want to, but I will NOT wish defeat to the Russian army. No one wants war, everyone wants peace, but peace on his own conditions. Honestly, I still believe the politicians on either side would get along if they were more considerate and less greedy. But here is what we have. When diplomacy is silent, the guns start talking. And there's little we can do about it.

I just hope for all if this **** to end as soon as possible, and not escalate too much.
 
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Rage Racer
If you think I approve the decision of invading Ukraine, you are wrong. If I had the ability to rewind back in time, teleport into Kremlin and convince Putin not to do it, I'd use it. Yes, I thought Russia wouldn't attack, because I believed the consequences would be terrible and price uncceptable to the RF government (however, I posted a disclaimer earlier that I didn't pretend to be 100% correct in my predictions). Perhaps I underestimated the losses they were willing to accept.

But in no circumstances I will be rooting for the current government of Ukraine (the anti-Russian regime that did its best to alienate the largest ethnic minority in the country, and that is also responsible for this whole mess). Of course I feel bad for the innocent people of Ukraine, some of whom are my friends on Internet (or were - some of them just cut all contacts with everyone from Russia). Just don't forget that this whole story does have a context. This war didn't start a month ago. It's going on since 2014, but now it's in a new phase. A phase that may put a decisive end on this conflict. Or not. We are witnesses of history being written...

I don't divide anyone into "good" or "bad" guys. It's just "we" and "them" to me. No side is innocent and fluffy here. So, condemn me if you want to, but I will NOT wish defeat to the Russian army. No one wants war, everyone wants peace, but peace on his own conditions. Honestly, I still believe the politicians on either side would get along if they were more considerate and less greedy. But here is what we have. When diplomacy is silent, the guns start talking. And there's little we can do about it.

I just hope for all if this **** to end as soon as possible, and not escalate too much.
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In geopolitics its all about interests.

I used to shill for Turkey a lot. In the end none of them even give a crap about us we are just pawns on the chestboard. Every country cloaks its interests with a noble cause no matter what. You cant motivate anybody to fight for oil or land. 18 year old kids just want to study and have fun not fight a war caused by old men at the top.

Australia is even bullying east timor because in east timor's waters you have oil and gas that got discovered. Now East Timor coming close to China.

Russia and Ukraine have a big problem with Neo nazis. Russia also has its fair share of neo nazis which is pretty ironic as Nazis saw Slavs as subhumans. Slavs are white and also have their fair of blonde hair but they dont fit the Germans description because they held the Germanic race at the top.
 
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Rage Racer
Just don't forget that this whole story does have a context. This war didn't start a month ago. It's going on since 2014, but now it's in a new phase. A phase that may put a decisive end on this conflict. Or not. We are witnesses of history being written...
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There's certainly a context ... & it goes way back, long before 2014. The history of Eastern Europe in the 20th century is extraordinarily complicated & convoluted. To quote a small excerpt from the Jewish Times article you link to:

"Ukrainians sought independence during centuries of rule by the Russian and Austro-Hungarian empires as well as Poland, and seven decades as part of the Soviet Union. Subjugation under Poland lies at the heart of Ukraine’s historic resentment against Poles. When Soviet Ukraine was overrun by the Nazis during World War II, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists initially cooperated with Hitler’s forces, hoping to shake off the Soviet regime — which had collectivized farms, engineered a devastating famine that killed millions and imprisoned or executed regime opponents in droves. When leaders of the group realized the Nazis had no plans for an independent Ukraine, the group and its military wing switched to fighting both Stalin’s and Hitler’s forces. Other Ukrainian military units, such as the SS Galician Division or the Ukrainian Self Defense Legion, remained loyal to the Nazis."

The situation was very similar to what took place in other countries, including Poland, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria & the Balkan countries. Each of these countries had multiple internal factions with varying nationalist agendas & historical grievances to back them up. Trying to sort out the "good" & the "bad" in all this is a thankless task. Russia may have some justification for feeling aggrieved ... but so does Ukraine & every other country in the region. Putin has thrown out diplomacy & compromise & chosen to gamble that he can re-assert Russian dominance over its neighbour through the use of military force. This appears to have been a serious miscalculation on his part. The consequences of this war of choice, regardless of the eventual outcome, will damage Russia for years to come.
 
I don't agree with anything Rage Racer says. But his comments do help me humanize Russians in general. However flawed the logic, there is an attempt to apply logic.

However I do wonder why anyone would go to such lengths to "discuss" things in a place they know is not buying into the BS they are trying to spread. That part is weird. It would be like one of us going to a Russian forum and trying to spread our message there.
 
Rage Racer
and that is also responsible for this whole mess
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This was conceptually defensible when it looked like Russia was going to go in and take Donbas and the like and leave it at that. It just makes you look like a sociopath to keep saying it when Russia's actual goal became clear basically hours later to instead turn the entire country into a parking lot.
 
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Rage Racer
How often do you see Stalin being glorified by our state
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Cant remember any straight forward example. Some persons could argue about him in positive way, but in general his person mostly used as propaganda weapon.

On the other hand, praising Dzerzhinsky, Kadyrov and Nikolai II is Ok.
Rage Racer
collaboration with neo-Nazi forces
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It doesn't work this way.

Rage Racer
But in no circumstances I will be rooting for the current government of Ukraine (the anti-Russian regime that did its best to alienate the largest ethnic minority in the country, and that is also responsible for this whole mess
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We could see how Russian speaking Ukrainians hate Zelenskiy and love Putin, yeah.
 
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Rage Racer
If you think I approve the decision of invading Ukraine, you are wrong. If I had the ability to rewind back in time, teleport into Kremlin and convince Putin not to do it, I'd use it. Yes, I thought Russia wouldn't attack, because I believed the consequences would be terrible and price uncceptable to the RF government (however, I posted a disclaimer earlier that I didn't pretend to be 100% correct in my predictions). Perhaps I underestimated the losses they were willing to accept.

But in no circumstances I will be rooting for the current government of Ukraine (the anti-Russian regime that did its best to alienate the largest ethnic minority in the country, and that is also responsible for this whole mess). Of course I feel bad for the innocent people of Ukraine, some of whom are my friends on Internet (or were - some of them just cut all contacts with everyone from Russia). Just don't forget that this whole story does have a context. This war didn't start a month ago. It's going on since 2014, but now it's in a new phase. A phase that may put a decisive end on this conflict. Or not. We are witnesses of history being written...

I don't divide anyone into "good" or "bad" guys. It's just "we" and "them" to me. No side is innocent and fluffy here. So, condemn me if you want to, but I will NOT wish defeat to the Russian army. No one wants war, everyone wants peace, but peace on his own conditions. Honestly, I still believe the politicians on either side would get along if they were more considerate and less greedy. But here is what we have. When diplomacy is silent, the guns start talking. And there's little we can do about it.

I just hope for all if this **** to end as soon as possible, and not escalate too much.
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The guns started talking because your dictator for life president ordered an invasion. Stop trying to blame Ukraine for it.
 
Dotini
Threats of both tactical and strategic nuclear weapons from Russia? In for a penny in for a pound?
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This reminds me of Spike Milligan's idiot character Eccles in the Goon Show, who declares whilst on sentry duty: "Don't move or I'll blow my brains out!"

-

@RageRacer While I think context and history can help to understand how we got to this point, it is all rendered moot by the flagrant war crimes and atrocities being committed by Putin, his odious regime and his vile military.

What Putin has done and continues to do in Ukraine is indefensible. And threatening nuclear attacks on anyone who dares to intervene - even in a peacekeeping or humanitarian capacity - is sickening beyond belief.
 
Omg..!!!! (I would going to say if i was a believer)

And is on fox also...amazing..!!!
A bit old offcourse but nevertheless some truths.

 
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Rage Racer
I thought I'll respond to another member this time, but it seems like I'm about to get banned from posting in this thread (or even on this whole forum) for alleged misinformation, so let me at least explain before that happens.

Where is misinformation? How does it contradict what I said?
What I read here is the journalist's own speculations, a phrase of some Stalin era born citizen, an opinion of one historian (where he draws parallels like "Stalin was a rival to the West, Putin is a rival to the West, too"), a Stalin museum been opened (like museum is supposed to only glorify someone who this museum is about) and Putin praising the non-agression pact with the Third Reich (but not the secret protocol about dividing the spheres of influence). Based on this, the author concludes that Putin admires Stalin and you conclude that I misinform when I say Russia acknowledges the crimes of Stalinism.

But in the real Russia I live in (not the one you read about on media), Stalin is a very controversal person, and any positive (or negative) opinion about him on public causes an immediate ****storm. That historian mentioned in that LAT article, Nikolai Svanidze, once had a brawl on radio air where he punched his opponent in the face when they argued about Stalin. On the history lessons in my school, we all were told about GULAG, mass repressions, purges and other horrible attributes of Stalin era, but also about industrialization and victory in WWII - and the price they're paid for. "Great achievements, but also great sacrifices". Medvedev openly called Stalin a criminal during his presidency, while Putin refers to him as to a "controversal person". There are very polar opinions about Stalin in the Russian society so the government prefers to just avoid talking about him, not even to mention glorifying. There's no Stalin in Russian geography or city/street names since the '60s. If you mean to compare that to Ukraine's state honoring of Bandera and Shukhevich, it's not even close.

@inCloud, can you confirm? How often do you see Stalin being glorified by our state (not by pensioners who say "Сталина на вас нет!" ["too bad there's no Stalin for you!"] when they scold young people)?

All the "glamourisation" I've seen by your link on LAT (article of 2015) was Putin praising the USSR for avoiding the war with Hitler in 1939. But he spoke separately on the secret protocols (Putin's article on National Interest of 2020).

Now where is he glamourising Stalin, and where am I wrong about the Russian state acknowledging the terror of Stalinism? Aren't you the one misinforming people here?

A right-wing nationalist who continues to carry Central Asian immigrants in (personally cancelling the deportation of illegals) and even "glamourises Stalin" (as you say)? I suppose it's not easy to see from the UK, but that's not what real Russian right-wing nationalists look like. In reality, they are usually far from glorifying Putin and especially Stalin.
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That you think Putin describing him as "controversial person" doesn't equate to a lack of condemnation is pretty clear where you lie on this point.


Rage Racer
War crimes? Not for distinguished service but exactly for war crimes? Do you have any information what war crimes are they awarded for, or you're misinforming again?
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Did you actually bother reading any of the information I linked to?
Rage Racer
Not to mention your false equivalence of Nazi collaborators and Ukrainian SS divisions being glorified publicly and for many years by the Ukrainian state (with parades, monuments and street naming), to Putin awarding his officers (who don't brag about their supposed Nazi beliefs) without media publicity. Not many people in Russia even know who are Utkin and Wagner PMC while Ukraine made Bandera and Shukhevich the national heroes. See the difference?
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No it's not. First I have repeatedly condemned such units within Russia, while your response was pretty much ' just because he's got nazi tattoos doesn't mean he's a nazi'!

Rage Racer
Did I say it justifies the invasion? Where?
This whole Nazi discourse began when one member mocked the idea of Nazi battalions (not only Azov) serving for Ukrainian force because "they have a Jewish president!!", like Zelensky's Jewishness is some kind of obstacle for that (even Schwarznegger seems to think so). He was well aware about the Nazi problem in his country, but wasn't able to do anything about it. Or he just didn't want to. Or both.
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No, they mocked the idea that he country was awash with nazis, as per the denazification justification used by Putin.


Rage Racer
Censor me all you like. But then you'll have to mute around a half of this thread for multiple cases of misinformation that I can prove. However, I'm not sure you'll let me do this.
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The issues is that you've not proven it, in fact your claims of fact have a track record of not being backed up.

Rage Racer
But alright, let's get back to where you said you corrected me:

Yes. And?
Point 4 of the Minsk II treaty says: "On the first day after the pullout a dialogue is to start on modalities of conducting local elections in accordance with the Ukrainian legislation..."

Who would Ukraine have to start a dialogue with? With those who de-facto have control of the areas - the self-proclaimed governments of the breakaway states. Because Russia didn't attach them to its own territory like Crimea. "Talk to me about L/DPR? They aren't mine! Talk to them, and I'll get them talking anytime you want". But Ukraine just didn't want to negotiate with them, because that would mean to recognize them as legitmate parties of the conflict.
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Please don't try and retcon this. The parties in the discussion were quite clearly identified within the treaty as Ukraine, the Breakaway regions, and Russia.


Rage Racer
By the time Medvedev said this, Zelensky had been a president for 2 years, but still had done nothing for the Minsk accords, so he had grounds to think so. However, Medvedev isn't the one to decide whether Russia would or wouldn't talk to Ukraine. The "Iron Dimon" said straight what he thought, but Putin was more patient and gave Ukraine one more chance to negotiate. Shortly before the Z-day, Putin had a meeting with Macron, where he said that inmodest phrase addressed to Zelensky about the Minsk agreements - "like it or not - tough it out, my beauty!", calling him to follow the agreements one last time.

And what's anti-Semitic here? Medvedev mentions Zelensky's Jewish descent to shame him for collaboration with neo-Nazi forces. People on the West think it's nonsense for a country with Jewish president to have Nazi units in the army and police. And yes, it's nonsense - a nonsense that is happening in reality. More to that, Ukraine officially honors the OUN-B, the nationalist organization whose members served in Abwehr's Nachtigall battalion that directly took part in Holocaust, slaughtering Zelensky's tribesmen! That's what the ex-president of RF was talking about.
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More whataboutsim, and interestingly flowery prose about Putin! That aside, it doesn't actually address the point I raised at all

Rage Racer
From what I understand in this story, the "Normandy format" eventually came to a dead end for reason above - different positioning of Russia's role in the Donbass conflict.

But none of these changes the fact that Russia repeatedly urged Ukraine to comply with Minsk II and Ukraine repeatedly responded like "**** off, I'm not going to". If Ukraine wasn't able to follow them, it shouldn't have signed these treaties. In April 2021, Zelensky suggested to edit the Minsk II agreements, but didn't explain to Moscow what exactly did he want to change in them, and said again that he still wasn't willing to negotiate with the representatives of the breakaway states.
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While Russia was quite happy for the breakaway regions to do just the same, and forgetting that Russia was never a mediator in the process, but a participant.

Russia basically refused to be party to discussion and then complained about that when it was revealed they had said it.

Overall your response to these three points is quite telling, I was open about eh fact that I viewed both sides to be at fault for the collapse, you remain steadfast, despite quite clear evidence, that only one side can be at fault.


Rage Racer
So, I'm not misinforming or breaking the AUP in any other way. But you still can silence me if you want, I don't care much. It seems to me that very few people in this thread are interested to hear an alternative perspective instead of blindly consuming all the propaganda from mainstream media, so I'm losing interest to this discussion.
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You are, they question is are you doing so deliberately or not.

Rage Racer
the anti-Russian regime that did its best to alienate the largest ethnic minority in the country,
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They did an appalling job them given how many of they are now fighting against the Russian's!


Rage Racer
and that is also responsible for this whole mess
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Just no.
 
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TexRex
lol
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Considering the kind of conversation that Putin's ideologic partners push in the political environment, I want to see how long until he blames Ukraine for the war for being "woke", implant "critical race theory" or trying to create a "communist dictatorship" (well for this one he is larping about Nazism, while supporting nazis is his own country...). No wonder the use of "cancel culture".

newlinesmag.com

Exclusive: Russia Backs Europe’s Far Right

Emails and documents show just how closely Italian, French, German and Austrian politicians coordinate with Moscow
newlinesmag.com newlinesmag.com

Its symptomatic to see how many disruptive, wannabe dictators have grown in democratic countries recently, wanting to kill democracy values using democratic institutions (destroying them in the process). No wonder they always sell Putin as a positive example.

1_cbifot160220223122-7463258.jpg

This was last February 27, when he announced that he "sympathize with the Russian cause".



Oh, and watching Salvini, a racist perv about immigrants and Putin supporter, being humiliated in Poland when trying to capitalize about... Immigrants, is pure gold. Cheers to that mayor.
 
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Eunos_Cosmo
The last avenue out of this for Putin, without significant escalation or a protracted and politically doomed occupation is for him to have a GWB-style "Mission Accomplished" statement, proclaiming the Ukrainian military has been "incapacitated" and no longer a "threat." At this point the Russian military will disengage and go back to Russia. I seriously doubt this is what Putin intended to accomplish, but I don't see a better option for him. There would probably be some recognition of Crimea and Donbas as Russian territory, even if it's not formal.

I would guess that within a week we will know if Putin intends to de-escalate or escalate further. I really hope it's the former.
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I think...maybe....just maybe...Russia may be pivoting to this outcome. For the sake of everyone involved, I hope that it is true.

Russia states more limited war goal to 'liberate' Donbass
 
At this rate do Ukrainian forces even let them get that much without a bloodbath to do so? They were already starting to chase Russian forces out of captured areas before the "objectives of the first stage of the operation have generally been accomplished."
 
Tornado
At this rate do Ukrainian forces even let them get that much without a bloodbath to do so? They were already starting to chase Russian forces out of captured areas before the "objectives of the first stage of the operation have generally been accomplished."
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I imagine that Russia and Ukraine are negotiating as we speak with a condition of Russian withdrawal (from Western Ukraine anyways) being that Ukraine doesn't laugh too much at the mission accomplished line.
 
Did Bush ever actually do a thumbs up, was it just that the entire thing was just so laughably tone deaf (even before hindsight of ten more years of deaths kicked in) that it was a Photoshop that spread like mad that made perfect sense for him to do so noone questioned it?





I've only ever seen parts of the speech and even the ones I just checked seemed like only excerpts.
 
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Tornado
Did Bush ever actually do a thumbs up, was it just that the entire thing was just so laughably tone deaf (even before hindsight of ten more years of deaths kicked in) that it was a Photoshop that spread like mad that made perfect sense for him to do so noone questioned it?





I've only ever seen parts of the speech and even the ones I just checked seemed like only excerpts.
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Damnit, he really did do it:



23:03
 

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