Russian Invasion of Ukraine

  • Thread starter Rage Racer
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Very sceptical about deadly doses of radiation. Its not safe, but to get deadly doses they must live for weeks near radioactive vehicles which is very unlikely. Even if they do, death after one month looks very unlikely.

I could see high % of oncology in near future.
 
Very sceptical about deadly doses of radiation. Its not safe, but to get deadly doses they must live for weeks near radioactive vehicles which is very unlikely. Even if they do, death after one month looks very unlikely.

I could see high % of oncology in near future.
If they dig foxholes and disturbed the soil massively its quite possible, I have a friend who has visited a few times and while paved roads were OK, any area with soil was strictly off limits.
 
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According to this source, death can happen within' 3 days if the exposure is enough. So, a month doesn't seem unlikely if they actively dug into the ground and spent long amounts of time in it.
Cardiovascular/central nervous system sickness is the type of ARS produced by extremely high total body doses of radiation (greater than 3000 rads). This type is the most severe and is always fatal. In addition to nausea and vomiting in the prodromal stage, patients with cerebral syndrome will also experience anxiety, confusion, and loss of consciousness within a few hours, the latent period will occur. 5 or 6 hours after the initial radiation exposure, tremors, and convulsions will begin, and eventually coma and death are inevitable within 3 days.

CDC shares the same as well as Gastrointestinal syndrome where death can occur within' 2 weeks.
  • Gastrointestinal (GI) syndrome:the full syndrome will usually occur with a dose greater than approximately 10 Gy (1000 rads) although some symptoms may occur as low as 6 Gy or 600 rads.
    • Survival is extremely unlikely with this syndrome. Destructive and irreparable changes in the GI tract and bone marrow usually cause infection, dehydration, and electrolyte imbalance. Death usually occurs within 2 weeks.
  • Cardiovascular (CV)/ Central Nervous System (CNS) syndrome:the full syndrome will usually occur with a dose greater than approximately 50 Gy (5000 rads) although some symptoms may occur as low as 20 Gy or 2000 rads.
    • Death occurs within 3 days. Death likely is due to collapse of the circulatory system as well as increased pressure in the confining cranial vault as the result of increased fluid content caused by edema, vasculitis, and meningitis.
 
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If they dig foxholes and disturbed the soil massively its quite possible, I have a friend who has visited a few times and while paved roads were OK, any area with soil was strictly off limits.
There is big difference between harm to health and dead in one month.
According to this source, death can happen within' 3 days if the exposure is enough.
For that much rads they should drink from reactor.
 
The situation now is, he has already lost the income, since the payments in Euros and and dollars are frozen upon arrival by sanctions and are unusable to him. At the moment, he is giving away billions in gas to Europe for free. It makes no sense not to turn off the gas flow.
Payments from the EU countries are going through Gazprom bank, which has (very conveniently) been excluded from sanctions. EU not likely to change stance on this anytime soon because some of the major players need the gas (at least until they can transition). Putin is quite happy to take the money (600-700 million EUR per day, depending on gas price), especially with sanctions in place. Pretty sure it will just stay as-is as it's profitable for both.
 
Payments from the EU countries are going through Gazprom bank, which has (very conveniently) been excluded from sanctions. EU not likely to change stance on this anytime soon because some of the major players need the gas (at least until they can transition). Putin is quite happy to take the money (600-700 million EUR per day, depending on gas price), especially with sanctions in place. Pretty sure it will just stay as-is as it's profitable for both.
Fortunately, the payments are not due until late April or May, time enough to arrange the Gazprom Euros to rubles workaround. Late word is that Putin has backed off his threat to turn off the gas.

 
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Without digging into the soil, the radiation in the Red Forest is upwards of 10.0 mSv/hour, which is .01 Gy/hour, and would hit 3 Gy in just about 12 days, which is sort of the baseline for major health concerns. Merck has a huge document based on radiation sickness and how much radiation a person can typically withstand.

By comparison, the average person in the US gets 3 mSv/year. So in some places in the Red Forest, you're getting more radiation in an hour than the average American does all year. On an average flight, you get roughly .0001 mSv/hour.

So if we account for things like digging into the soil, the number of dust particles that were kicked up while digging, and the fact that everything the soldiers were touching, eating, and drinking were covered with radioactive material it's not surprising that some soldiers are already starting to die due to exposure.

Here's the breakdown of what happens based on how many Gy a person absorbs (some medical images, so take that as a warning).

Anything more than 8 Gy pretty much means you're fate is sealed with or without care. Anything under 2 Gy means you have a decent chance to survive and from that baseline up to the 8 Gy number, the chance of death rapidly increases.

Given how quickly the soldiers died, they could've easily received upwards of 30 Gy. This is assuming they're a healthy adult with no underlying conditions either.
 
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Ukrainians risking two Mi-24 helicopters for a special operation and penetrate 30-40 km or even more in to Russia for a fuel base?
Or a Russian false-flag special operation to hinder peace talks that are held right now?

I can't find the street they are flying alongside.

Wait, are you telling me Russia is accusing Ukraine of conducting a raid against a legitimate military target inside Russia during a war Russia started? How dare they!
 
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Wait, are you telling me Russia is accusing Ukraine of conducting a raid against a legitimate military target inside Russia during a war Russia started? How dare they!
Not exactly... Russia said that the fuel depo was civilian.

BTW, the helicopters went somewhere west across the city after the raid.

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Not exactly... Russia said that the fuel depo was civilian
I believe a fuel depot is a legitimate military target in war, even if it's in civilian control.

Edit: ""In so far as objects are concerned, military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage."
Article 52, Geneva convention
 
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I have to say I am disappointed in the Russian people. I used to think they were smart. And strong.

I expected a Revolution/Coup by now. Not only to stop Putin but to prove they could. I'm afraid that they're just defeated people, comfortable in vicitmhood. :(
 
I believe a fuel depot is a legitimate military target in war, even if it's in civilian control.

Edit: ""In so far as objects are concerned, military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage."
Article 52, Geneva convention
Yeah, I'm just saying how Russia is telling their stories.
(Google translate)

1648859639209.png

1648859667309.png


"tank farm" = fuel base/ fuel storage.
 
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Very sceptical about deadly doses of radiation. Its not safe, but to get deadly doses they must live for weeks near radioactive vehicles which is very unlikely. Even if they do, death after one month looks very unlikely.

I could see high % of oncology in near future.
The soil and organic life are even more dangerous than metal structures in the area. The soil and plants absorbed radiation and have stored it peacefully for decades in the topsoil. While the roads through the exclusion zone are safe for travel and even host tours, with abandoned vehicles and structures easily avoidable, the dirt and forests aren't safe. And the soldiers didn't just start hiking through the forest, they dug holes and laid down directly in soil that's been storing radioactive particles for decades, and their vehicles put all that radioactive dirt and dust into the air and directly into soldiers' lungs.

Unfortunately if one soldier has already died from it then exposure was likely extreme and dozens more will probably die from it in the near future. This is very similar to what happened to people living in Pripyat during the disaster. Initial symptoms are fairly mild, like a flu, but over the course of a few weeks more and more DNA fails and cells continue to die. Oncology can't do anything about that, it's actually more like the opposite of cancer. It's runaway cell death, not growth.

Edit: Treed by a bunch of people lol.
 
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Very sceptical about deadly doses of radiation. Its not safe, but to get deadly doses they must live for weeks near radioactive vehicles which is very unlikely. Even if they do, death after one month looks very unlikely.

I could see high % of oncology in near future.
If they dig foxholes and disturbed the soil massively its quite possible, I have a friend who has visited a few times and while paved roads were OK, any area with soil was strictly off limits.
There is big difference between harm to health and dead in one month.
Yep. The difference is whether it's on the ground undisturbed or you're kicking up a ****ton of radioactive dust and breathing it in.


The problem with radiation is there's about a billion different ways of measuring it and about a billion different types of it.

Chernobyl resulted a widespread release of Iodine-131 and Caesium-137 (both decay by beta emission, more on that later), measured in Becquerels. This measures atom decay: 1Bq is 1 nucleus decaying every 1 second. Think of a Geiger counter clicking at a rate of one click a second and that's basically a Becquerel.

In terms of all material released to atmosphere, Chernobyl emitted roughly 10EBq - that's 10 ExaBecquerels. If you're not familiar with your SI prefixes, "exa" is a thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand, or 10^18. Think of the Geiger counter clicking at a rate of 10 quintillion clicks a second and that's basically 10EBq. Bq is basically a measurement of activity

But decay alone doesn't tell us much; we need to know how it decays. There's four basic types of radioactive decay, which are alpha, beta, and neutron particles and gamma waves.

  • An alpha particle is more or less a helium nucleus: it's big and heavy and easily stopped - which means it does surface damage as all its energy is stopped by the surface layer.
  • A beta particle is an electron moving at incredible speeds. They're harder to stop, but that means they do damage further in - if quite a good deal less of it because it's so much lighter.
  • Neutrons are... neutrons. Heavier than betas, lighter than alphas, and they're a bit complex when it comes to how damaging they are as it depends. We don't need to worry about them here, so no bother.
  • Gamma is basically super short wavelength EM (like X rays, but more) and you can't stop the buggers easily but as a result they don't do as much damage; their problem is they basically irradiate everything because they go right through stuff.

What that means for the human body is that alphas are bad but only to exposed bits, betas are worse because they can get a couple of centimetres in, gammas are awful because they just attack everything. I-131 and Cs-137 emit betas.

Now comes unit #2: Roentgen. We're all familiar with this, I think: 3.6 Roentgen, not great, not terrible. It's basically a measure of X-ray/Gamma radiation in air, or a measurement of exposure. It's not super relevant at this point, but has a purpose later.

Unit #3: Grays. A Gray is an SI unit that measures radiation absorption by matter, or a measurement of dose. 1Gy is one joule of radiation energy absorbed per kilogram of matter - 1J/kg (I hate this, for reference, as the resolved units means it's 1 square metre square second). This basically determines how much energy is transferred from radiation to stuff, determining how much damage is done.

Grays are pretty easy to get to grips with. If you have a full-body (as in your entire body is exposed) dose of 1Gy, you might be dead but it'll take a while. If it's 5Gy, you're probably dead and it'll take a couple of weeks. If it's 10Gy, you're very dead and in a couple of days. However, bits of you might be fine if it's limited enough - 10Gy to just your hand is not deadly; we also use Grays to measure therapeutic radiation - cancer cells might be targetted with 100Gy (for quick reference, you'd experience >300Gy at the hypocenter of a small nuke if you weren't vapourised by the fireball, which you would be).

That takes us to unit #4, the Sievert, which is also a measure of dose. This used to be called the "Roentgen Equivalent Man" - or "rem" - before standardised and recalculated (1Sv = 100rem) and it takes into account biology.

In essence your vital organs are capable of absorbing different amounts of radiation before sustaining fatal damage, and different types of radiation do different amounts of damage as we saw earlier. A Sievert is basically the amount of damage a Gray does, corrected for where it's doing it and what radiation type is delivering it. 1Gy of alphas is 20 times worse than 1Gy of betas, and 1Gy directed at your bollocks is about eight times worse than 1Gy directed at your brain (I... don't know why bollocks are eight times more sensitive to radiation than brains). Crucially, lungs are about 50% more sensitive than bollocks.


Now the point I was getting to when I started.

The Red Forest has an ambient background dose of about a milliGray an hour, with hotspots spiking at 10mGy/hr - which you can for simplicity's sake equate to 10mSv/hr. Your general annual radiation dose (from cosmic rays and bananas; don't ask) is just over 2mSv, so the Red Forest give a radiation dose roughly 35,000 times that of background; you can hit your annual dose in 15 minutes. If you work with radiation, you're permitted a maximum dose of 50mSv/year (and since 3.6 Roentgen, converted to rem, is roughly 3.6mSv, now you know why it was neither great nor terrible!), but no more than 100mSv over a period of five years. You'd hit that walking in the Red Forest in a day.

Now breathe it in in dust form, because you've been digging up the soil, and take account of the fact it's beta radiation. Your dose is now close to 100mSv/hr.

Stay for 10 hours - not even half a day - and your internal exposure is equivalent to 1Gy (1Sv is, after all, the effect 1Gy has on biologics). 1Gy kills 5% of people in a couple of months. Stay for two days and it's near enough 5Gy, which kills half of people in two weeks. In four days you're toast and you get a lead-lined coffin at a funeral with no attendees.


If these idiots dug trenches and foxholes in the most highly irradiated soil on Earth, then yes, they absolutely, 100%, could have gone from being at elevated risk for some cancers from hanging around for a month to suffering acute radiation sickness and dying in days. No question about it.
 
I have to say I am disappointed in the Russian people. I used to think they were smart. And strong.

I expected a Revolution/Coup by now. Not only to stop Putin but to prove they could. I'm afraid that they're just defeated people, comfortable in vicitmhood. :(
Personal risks from protests is high(from monthly income to 30 days in jail), quality of life is still on European level and anomie is at max level. Even in that condition we have 15.000 arrests in first week of war for protests.

No one really knows what is in heads of Russians right now, my guess is denial. If you dont interested in politics and economics, you could see that some goods are not available but for the most part nothing really happening for you.

April will be critical.
 
Personal risks from protests is high(from monthly income to 30 days in jail), quality of life is still on European level and anomie is at max level. Even in that condition we have 15.000 arrests in first week of war for protests.

No one really knows what is in heads of Russians right now, my guess is denial. If you dont interested in politics and economics, you could see that some goods are not available but for the most part nothing really happening for you.

April will be critical.
yeah, and teachers are reported by students for speaking the truth



btw. looking at the map in the article, people from the UA travel further into Europe, we have around 300 000 refugees
 
US fueling the fire once more, is a contractors heaven..


The United States will provide $ 300 million in additional military assistance to Ukraine.

Source: Associated Press

The increase is up to $ 300 million in additional military aid to Ukraine, Pentagon spokesman John Kirby said.

"The United States has now committed more than $ 2.3 billion in military assistance to Ukraine since the Biden administration took office, including more than $ 1.6 billion in military assistance following the unprovoked and premeditated invasion of Ukraine. He said.

As for the package, it will include laser-guided missile systems, "kamikaze" Switchblade drones, as well as Puma light drones.

It is recalled that on Wednesday US President Joe Biden discussed with Volodymyr Zelensky on Wednesday about "additional" military capabilities needed to help the Ukrainian army "defend its country", according to the White House. Biden and Zelensky "discussed how the United States works day and night to meet Ukraine's key demands for security assistance," the US presidency said in a statement.

The New York Times also reported that the United States would work with its allies to transport Soviet-made tanks to Ukraine to bolster the country's military defenses in the Donbas region. In fact, the transport of tanks - with their number not being known - will begin soon.
 
US fueling the fire once more, is a contractors heaven..


The United States will provide $ 300 million in additional military assistance to Ukraine.

Source: Associated Press

The increase is up to $ 300 million in additional military aid to Ukraine, Pentagon spokesman John Kirby said.

"The United States has now committed more than $ 2.3 billion in military assistance to Ukraine since the Biden administration took office, including more than $ 1.6 billion in military assistance following the unprovoked and premeditated invasion of Ukraine. He said.

As for the package, it will include laser-guided missile systems, "kamikaze" Switchblade drones, as well as Puma light drones.

It is recalled that on Wednesday US President Joe Biden discussed with Volodymyr Zelensky on Wednesday about "additional" military capabilities needed to help the Ukrainian army "defend its country", according to the White House. Biden and Zelensky "discussed how the United States works day and night to meet Ukraine's key demands for security assistance," the US presidency said in a statement.

The New York Times also reported that the United States would work with its allies to transport Soviet-made tanks to Ukraine to bolster the country's military defenses in the Donbas region. In fact, the transport of tanks - with their number not being known - will begin soon.
Do you think it’s morally wrong to support Ukraine with weapons? If so, why?
 
Do you think it’s morally wrong to support Ukraine with weapons? If so, why?

I'm not aware of anything moral the US government or NATO ever did, and because you didn't understand it before i say it again this is not against the american people.
 
I'm not aware of anything moral the US government or NATO ever did, and because you didn't understand it before i say it again this is not against the american people.
And you don’t think Ukraine has a right to defend itself because…?
 
I'm not aware of anything moral the US government or NATO ever did, and because you didn't understand it before i say it again this is not against the american people.
This is a dodge. I'm also interested in an answer to the question you dodged with this post.

Is it morally wrong to support Ukraine with military weapons? If so, why?
 
And you don’t think Ukraine has a right to defend itself because…?

If you cared to read what i posted couple pages back you wouldn't be asking those questions

Yes it has all the right...and you are telling me that US and NATO caring a lot for Ukrainian people...?

If it wasn't NATO expansionism and US funding fascist groups in the first place,Putin was not going to invade Ukraine.

Listen i **** on Putin's face and it's capitalistic russia and i condemn Putin's invasion.

The thing is that people of Ukraine and people of russia are paying the price for the imperialistic antagonisms...
 
Do you think it’s morally wrong to support Ukraine with weapons? If so, why?
That would be a strange position indeed.
During WWII, the Great Patriotic War USA and other countries supplied the Soviet Union with tonnes of weapons to fight the invading troops, making a crucial difference in defending the country.
That's exactly the same as they do for Ukraine now.
 
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