Man, what a ****storm I caused with my comments about Katyn.
Sorry if I don't respond to all of you, my time for forum wars is limited.
Why do you always seem to forget this bit...
"President Viktor Yanukovych declared the award illegal, since Bandera was never a citizen of Ukraine, a stipulation necessary for getting the award. This announcement was confirmed by a court decision in April 2010.[20] In January 2011, the award was officially annulled.[21] A proposal to confer the award on Bandera was rejected by the Ukrainian parliament in August 2019"
... It was done by an outgoing president and removed less than three months later by the incoming president.
But just to remind you again, 0.006% of the armed forces and less than 2% of the vote.
Okay, but who are all these people then, marching across cities of Ukraine every 1st of January? Putin's undercover agents with torchlights?
And I'll remind that Kyiv and other cities of Ukraine have streets named after this person.
Not a fan of ultranationalist thing, but its another Kremlin bull****. Partnership between ounb and Germany was broken 8 days after invasion in Ukraine. Bandera was sent to jail by Nazis. Pre war there was some alliance against communist regime and Poland occupation (part of current Ukraine was under Poland), but guess who else has alliance with Nazis against Poland. And its not ordinary thing to call Stalin a nazi.
You're missing the Schutzmannschaft Bataillon 201, that was once commanded by Roman Shukhevych (another national hero of Ukraine), subordinated to SS and formed from Nachtigal and Roland battalions that mostly consisted of OUN-B members. This time they were the official part of German forces.
Ukraine had real heroes in its history, but of all of them it chose these scumbags to be proud of. If this was all just to say "**** you" to Russians, they were 100% successful with that.
cannot access Twitter and the like (or at least, not easily)
Getting accurate readings from Russia itself is also a bit difficult
What's difficult in installing VPN and turning it on? I'm used to this a long time ago, since I started playing one Japanese browser game that requires a Japanese IP for access.
That doesn't stop ordinary internet users from discussing and criticising the Russian operation.
@Liquid had never been on those Russian forums and social media but judges about them like he's an expert who knows more about RuNet than its actual users.
Russian government
aggressively putting out propaganda to paint a completely different picture of their invasion
And you think Ukraine or West behave any differently here? Are you sure their propaganda doesn't lie or distort facts? I can provide examples if you want.
Wars aren't fought without propaganda. It's been like that for hundreds of years.
That really isn't the "gotcha" that you think it is. Are you still able to do that using a regular internet connection without using a VPN, yes or no?
No, but how does it stop me from reading Facebook, Twitter or other blocked sources?
TBH, the fact that there are Soviet statues in Poland is very weird
It's the memory of Russian (and also Ukrainian, Belorussian, Tatar, Kazakh, Armenian, Jewish and of many other ethnicities of the USSR) soldiers who fought the Nazis in Poland and sacrificed their lives in the process, not of the communist regime. These are different things, is it so hard to understand?
considering that the Soviets
invaded Poland in conjunction with the Nazis,
that Stalin knew about the Warsaw Uprising and allowed it to fail (resulting in the near-total destruction of Warsaw itself and the deportation of Jewish civilians to Treblinka and Majdanek), and the aforementioned Katyn massacre, which was carried out during Stalin's purges,
discovered by the Nazis of all people (pg 244), and when the Polish Government-In-Exile asked for it to be investigated, Stalin basically told them to piss off and cut off all diplomatic relations, with the Soviet government continuing to cover-up the story until 1990.
No need to lecture me on history, I knew it all long before I started this thread.
It was explainable that USSR covered up the real story of Katyn during the war - it was not the best time to quarrel with the allies. The US also did their own investigation, but they kept the results in secret until the Cold War.
Also I find it funny how Poles first say "You invaded us, we didn't ask you to liberate us!" but then "You didn't help us during the Warsaw uprising!". Oh, but you guys said "Polska strong" and that you could have liberated yourself on your own, so why all those complaints about Warsaw, mmm?
Indeed there is a theory that Red Army waited on purpose for the Polish resistance (the main force of which was Armia Krajowa, that was hostile to Nazis and Soviets alike) to be wiped out by the Germans, because AK would be the next enemy after the defeat of Nazis, and would possibly shoot the Russians in the back after the capture of Warsaw. However, the more official story says that the Soviet troops of the 1st Belorussian Front (commanded by Marshal Konstantin Rokossowski, who was an ethnic Pole, by the way) had to pull up reserves and supply lines before assaulting the Polish capital, but the Soviet Air Force did provide support by dropping supplies to the Polish partisans.
And what's bad about it?
Sanctions are a game that can be played PvP. Poland was the earlier one to impose sanctions, and its disrespect to the memory of Soviet soldiers is more than a justified reason for Russia to retaliate. No need to expect RF to leave it unanswered.
It still doesn't justify the active aggression that Russia is wielding against Ukraine
I didn't say it does.
Are you honestly of the view that Russia is viewed favourable by the majority of Poles?
No, why'd you think I believe so?
I am well aware that Poland is a historic enemy of Russia, for over 400 years at least. Many Poles dislike Russia nowadays for things happened a long time ago, and my feelings toward the Polish state are mutual.
You forgot to mention that it took until 1990 for Russia to even acknowledge that Katyn was a massacre carried out by Russians
Yes, and?
post WW2 Russia annexed parts of Eastern Poland
More like, moved Poland a bit to the west.
After the WWII, the USSR took a lot more lands from Germany than just East Prussia (where Koenigsberg became Kaliningrad), but Stalin gave them to Poland as a compensation for the East Kresy (Galicia, Volhynia, etc). This is how Stettin became Szczecin, Danzig became Gdansk, Breslau became Wroclaw and so on.
And look who still occupies the illegally annexed Polish lands with cities of Lwow (now Lviv), Tarnopol (Ternopil), Stanislawow (Ivano-Frankivsk). It's Ukraine! Not Russia.
What an irony - the communists Ukraine hates so much were the ones who made Ukraine so big.
I dont want to sound anti Russian but the Soviets green lighted the German invasion of Poland by signing a non aggression pact after that they joined in the invasion alongside the Nazis to get themselves a piece.
Nazis and the Soviets did a military parade together when they captured Poland.
Nobody denies the contribution the Soviets did in defeating Nazi Germany but also another aspect needs to be looked in how they collarborated and signed agreements with the Nazis also how they shared countries that they were going to invade. Soviets did not invade Finland, Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania for no reason they saw it as part of their territory in the molotov-ribbentrop pact that they were allowed to take as Nazi Germany wont be bothering them as long as the Soviets allow them to take Poland.
Soviets were literally complicit in starting world war 2.
Excuse me, why should the Soviets have RED lighted the German invasion of Poland?
Poland didn't want to be protected by the Soviets - shortly before WWII, the USSR suggested Poland to form an alliance against Germany, but Poland rejected. A lot of other European powers had signed non-agression treaties with Germany (
including Poland!), no need to forget that when blaming the USSR for Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. Poland also annexed a part of Czechoslovakia when Britain and France fed it to Hitler in Munich, '38. So, if you say USSR was a German ally before the war, then Poland was, too.
The Soviet invasion of Poland in September 1939 happened 16 days later than the German, and by that time, Polish army was already done for. The government already ran away, and the Red Army barely faced any resistance when they stepped into Poland.
Was the USSR nobly defending Poland from the Nazis, as some people think? No. The Soviets acted under their own interests, to seize these lands to be an extra 'bumper' for the future invasion from the west. There's nothing noble about it - its like taking shoes from a dead man (Poland was already dead as a state by September, 17th). Still, it wouldn't be better for anyone if Nazis captured these territories instead (especially the Jews, who were a large part of Lwow population).
Looks like the saboteurs had a great day.
Edit.
Sorry to disappoint you, but this photo is 4 days old. The locomotive
derailed because of eroded ground under the rails.
It was a single locomotive, but Ukrainian propaganda says it carried 'military equipment and ammunition'. Well, there must be a lot of ammo a single locomotive can carry...
No wonder - they're in desperate need for victories to claim. And it works on people who don't bother even google-searching the image.
www.bbc.com
Jesus Christ in a hard hat, if only surveying international borders were as easy as moving things a bit. I guess Russia is trying to move Ukraine a bit to the northwest, right? They're trying to scooch in like they've got an extended warranty to sell.
