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That is a pretty telling video. Can't embed it as it isn't a supported site, but just click the link. Language warning.
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Russian Invasion of Ukraine
- Thread starter Rage Racer
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That is a pretty telling video. Can't embed it as it isn't a supported site, but just click the link. Language warning.
- 13,077
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Edward Snowden granted Russian citizenship
The former US intelligence contractor leaked a vast US intelligence surveillance programme in 2013.
www.bbc.co.uk
- 31,707
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- Dennisch
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Nordstream 1 has been damaged on 2 different locations, experts say that there's no doubt that it's sabotage.
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Nordstream 2 also has been damaged.
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It will be a massacre if there won't be mass surrendering among the Russians.
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Nordstream 2 also has been damaged.
Edit 2
It will be a massacre if there won't be mass surrendering among the Russians.
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- GTP_TheCracker
Unfortunate WW1-style cannon fodder. I don't see the point, unless they're just trying to deplete Ukrainian ammo stocks.
Battle-hardened and well motivated soldiers fighting for their country > Untrained civilians who don't want to be there and are probably increasingly believing less and less in the cause.
Battle-hardened and well motivated soldiers fighting for their country > Untrained civilians who don't want to be there and are probably increasingly believing less and less in the cause.
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The Nord Stream pipelines 1 & 2 have been 'attacked'
But who was it? - What does Russia have to gain by heavily damaging its own pipeline to Europe, one that they had already shut down due to sanctions. What do European countries have to gain by making sure the already cut off supply of Russian gas won't be available if we have a particularly cold winter and that gas is needed?
The US is all i can think of. That way Germany and co can't cave in and losen sanctions on Russia if they get backed into a corner and need that gas.
But who was it? - What does Russia have to gain by heavily damaging its own pipeline to Europe, one that they had already shut down due to sanctions. What do European countries have to gain by making sure the already cut off supply of Russian gas won't be available if we have a particularly cold winter and that gas is needed?
The US is all i can think of. That way Germany and co can't cave in and losen sanctions on Russia if they get backed into a corner and need that gas.
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You're ignoring this attack on us? You must be a Nazi too.
multi-directional pointing
And you, and you, and you...
Please feel sorry for us, please.
It's not like there has been much logic in anything Russia has done in the last 8 months.
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inCloud
(Banned)
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There is motive and resources to do it. Also, could be Ukrainians.
Always could be Russia, because Nazis
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Raising the prices.
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Maybe, but that would hurt their allies as much as it hurts Russia - Nord Stream 1 is owned 51% Gasprom and 49% German and Dutch companies. The Ukrainians don't need Western and Eastern Europe turning against them.
The Baltic sea is also pretty deep. It's going take plenty of resourses and organisation to carry out these well cordinated attacks. Aside from having no coastline there, Ukraine have plenty else to focus their military on right now.
Keef
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That's a pretty weird line of thinking. Why the hell would the US risk its position as the leader of NATO by sabotaging infrastructure that our allies could utilize in the future?
Russia's got a pretty good argument for sabotaging it though. It's possible that NATO allies could effectively confiscate and utilize the as-built infrastructure in some way, basically stealing Russia's investment. Sabotaging abandoned equipment is a classic wartime tactic - if I can't have it then neither can you. While Russia's soldiers may be too dumb and lazy to prevent ground equipment from falling into Ukrainian hands, it's plausible that they'd use this tactic on such a massively valuable infrastructure project simply to prevent their adversaries from benefitting in any way.
The bridge to Crimea is another great example where I think Russia would be very likely to sabotage itself if the infrastructure was at risk. Ukraine won't do it because it's a massive bargaining chip which could possibly benefit Ukraine in the future, if relations were to normalize. But if Russia were to lose Crimea, they would absolutely blow the hell out of that bridge to prevent Ukraine from being able to use it without spending their own resources to fix it.
These tactics fit very well into Russia's overall war philosophy which they've conducted rather well in Ukraine - just screw everything up so bad that nobody wants it. They just bombard swaths of land and cities, destroy things willy nilly, cripple the infrastructure, and lower morale to the point where the population submits with minimal resistance. Russia ruins things to the point where even if Ukraine were to get it back they wouldn't be able to use it without massive investment.
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Danoff
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I can think of scenarios where Russia might want to cut back on fuel exports but wouldn't want to tell the world, or people within Russia, that they wanted to.
I can also think of scenarios where Ukraine decides that fuel exports benefit Russia too much and calculate that their support will not erode despite this move.
I can also think of scenarios where Ukraine decides that fuel exports benefit Russia too much and calculate that their support will not erode despite this move.
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Russia already controls the 'taps' at the Russian end and has had them 'indefinately' closed since the end of August. Why even bother destroying the actual infustructure if they control what goes into it in the first place. Germany and Co. have been looking to source their energy from elsewhere since this all began. Russia would be just hammering the nails into their own 'energy deals with Europe' coffin by doing this.
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Same reason they would fund neo-Fascist groups that would go on to blow up a train station - at the end of the day, you can't really trust any country that claims to be a "superpower" not to stab its "allies" in the back when it aligns with their goals. And we have Biden on record saying "Nordstream 2 won't happen, no matter what the Germans have to say about it".
But with that being said, Russia has a lot more reasons to conduct such an act of sabotage - it would give them a good reason to raise prices should Europe decide to abandon sanctions and buy gas from the remaining pipelines, and more importantly, it shows that the new Baltic Pipe is equally vulnerable, while letting the deranged psychopaths Moscow gauge the European response. They certainly have the means to carry out such an attack - likely with Navy or FSB frogmen operating out of Kaliningrad.
As for Ukraine... Even if their navy divers were capable of sabotaging a pipeline, how would they get there? Perhaps with the help of Poland, which would obviously stand to benefit from the abandonment of the NS pipelines (the Baltic Pipe touches ground in Poland). But this is the kind of **** that only seems plausible to the tinfoil-hat-wearing portion of the population...
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