Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[Dotini]

The Ukrainians will realize that their country is broke and completely dysfunctional. What are they going to do then? Revolt against the government yet again? Beg the EU/USA for more money? This is a mess that will take decades to settle and no one will come out on top from this.

The US is delighted that Nazis are fighting communists in Ukraine, and Sunnis fighting Shia in Syria. At a time when our people and army are exhausted, our budget goes towards getting our enemies to fight each other. The feeling is one of quiet, smug satisfaction.

 

[GTracer98]

If its worth anything, my grandmother who lives in Mykolaiv is praying for Russia to intervene in her region. Since the conflict started, the "government" slashed her pension, while simultaneously raising taxes on everything. Since she doesn't speak Ukrainian, she's afraid to leave her house as there has been a lot of clashes between nationalists and separatists in the city (not just major stuff like the protests last month, but people just getting mugged in the street for speaking Russian). Basically she only survives at this point because we send her money from abroad, without that she'd probably be starving to death at this point which is exactly what's happening to less fortunate people.

And the worst thing is that the situation is exactly the same for everyone, regardless of whether they're Russian or Ukrainian. But that's the one thing the Maidan has succeeded at, igniting deep hatred between the Russians and Ukrainians, effectively splitting the population in half. For that reason the Ukrainians put up with the austerity measures and all the other **** the "government" throws at them, as long as it helps fight the Russians and the "evil invaders" from the RF. But once the dust settles what's going to happen? The Ukrainians will realize that their country is broke and completely dysfunctional. What are they going to do then? Revolt against the government yet again? Beg the EU/USA for more money? This is a mess that will take decades to settle and no one will come out on top from this.

Thanks for the insight, always good to hear from the people. 👍

EDIT:

You might have seen this but I thought I'd share it anyway:

 

[SMfan]

@Soda01, does your grandmother happen to watch a lot of Russian TV? Cause if she doesn't speak Ukrainian, she prolly does.
The idea that you can't speak Russian there seems absurd at the least, since the Maidan people mostly speak Russian (lots and lots of livestreams + friends from Ukraine and visiting there).

No purposeful offense to your relatives, but your grandma showcases a very pro-Russian stance.

As for the financial situation - yeah, it is really bad, but blaming the new govt for it is just insane. Not that I'm sure they will get stuff much better. What I AM sure about, however, is that if Timoshenko (Probably spelling it wrong ) becomes president, it will NOT get actually better.

The US is delighted that Nazis are fighting communists in Ukraine, and Sunnis fighting Shia in Syria. At a time when our people and army are exhausted, our budget goes towards getting our enemies to fight each other. The feeling is one of quiet, smug satisfaction.

Yeah, where's a poweful libertarian party when you need it?

_____________________________

One of the biggest problems right now is, it seems that the EU wanna have their own Yanukovich ruling Ukraine - just another uber-corrupt dude, but this time Euro-oriented. I've come to that conclusion seeing the way the EU blindly support anything Kiev does.

And what's baffling about it is the fact that the EU think they can keep their Yanukovich longer than Moscow did. But that's just not realistic. The revolution didn't come to put any single person in power - instead it was for the removal of the old system. If they see that same system re-emerges with different names and faces, another revolution, or a peaceful but complete change of the ruling regime is soon to follow.

With that change, all the money that the EU and the US are giving Ukraine now will be gone.

_____________________________

On a sidenote, it'd be interesting to get a glimpse at how the (unsuccessful) dialogue between Kiev and those armed people in Slavyansk and Kramatorsk went down.

 

[SMfan]

A member of the Ukrainian Helsinki Union (Human Rights Organization) says at least a dozen people taken hostage in Slavyansk - mostly journalists and people from other regions. His interview to TVRain (in Russian) can be found here:
http://tvrain.ru/articles/oleg_vere...ogo_schita_na_sluchaj_ataki_silovikov-368016/

What he says sounds pretty belivable considering a journalist of the pro-Kremlin KP newspaper wrote an article telling basically the same thing (the article was then taken down from the site).

 

[Rage Racer]

Hmm... Now that's interesting.
Is there a "notarized screenshot" of the KP article, or is it on Google or Yandex cache?

 

[HKS racer]

Poor Italians...

Yes, but unfortunately he is right. We are.
Here we ask permission to "genny a' carogna" to play a football match.

I'll trade italian passport anytime for a german, british, holland and spainard equivalent. No french please.
Contact me in PM.

We are imbecilles but putin is a psychopath criminal and... a close berlusconi friend.

 

[SMfan]

Hmm... Now that's interesting.
Is there a "notarized screenshot" of the KP article, or is it on Google or Yandex cache?

I thought you knew about it.
The Google cache link doesn't seem to work right now, but here's a link to the same article (I hope ) on KP's Ukrainian site:
http://kp.ua/politics/449329-korrespondent-kp-dvoe-sutok-provela-v-plenu-v-slavianske

Btw, after it was deleted from the Russian site, the people of KP claimed the removal was due to it "already being posted on the Ukrainian site". However, most of KP's articles are being simultaneously posted on both sites.

 

[Xilor]

@Soda01, does your grandmother happen to watch a lot of Russian TV? Cause if she doesn't speak Ukrainian, she prolly does.
The idea that you can't speak Russian there seems absurd at the least, since the Maidan people mostly speak Russian (lots and lots of livestreams + friends from Ukraine and visiting there).

No purposeful offense to your relatives, but your grandma showcases a very pro-Russian stance.

Obviously she would since she's Russian. However that's not the reason she had half of her pension taken away, the same thing is being done to everyone, even to uber-nationalistic Ukrainian grannies. And where does the govt. reinvest that money afterwards? Towards conducting "anti-terrorist" operations against its own civilians. Regardless of how you look at it, there's something deeply wrong with that.

@Soda01As for the financial situation - yeah, it is really bad, but blaming the new govt for it is just insane. Not that I'm sure they will get stuff much better. What I AM sure about, however, is that if Timoshenko (Probably spelling it wrong ) becomes president, it will NOT get actually better.

The way I see it, Ukraine has a lot of ties with Russia(natural gas being the most obvious ofc) and right now they are doing absolutely everything in their power to cut those ties. If they stop cooperating with Russia, who are they going to turn towards? The EU? Will that really be better for Ukraine? Is the EU showing so much goodwill towards them because they genuinely want to work with them, or because, like the USA, they just don't want Russia getting it their way? And what kind of financial support will the EU really be able to provide them, considering that half of their countries are going through difficult times themselves?

 

[Rage Racer]

Btw, after it was deleted from the Russian site, the people of KP claimed the removal was due to it "already being posted on the Ukrainian site". However, most of KP's articles are being simultaneously posted on both sites.

****, I feel like kp.ru and kp.ua are two different media sources.

 

[Dotini]

The way I see it, Ukraine has a lot of ties with Russia(natural gas being the most obvious ofc) and right now they are doing absolutely everything in their power to cut those ties. If they stop cooperating with Russia, who are they going to turn towards? The EU? Will that really be better for Ukraine? Is the EU showing so much goodwill towards them because they genuinely want to work with them, or because, like the USA, they just don't want Russia getting it their way? And what kind of financial support will the EU really be able to provide them, considering that half of their countries are going through difficult times themselves?

I think the EU has been hoodwinked by Catherine Ashton and Victoria Nuland into buying a dummy, and are now suffering buyer's remorse. Like an amoral trickster, the US likes to puff itself up by bringing everyone else down. No good will come of civil war in Ukraine - or any other kind of conflict, either.

 

[Dhalism]

i'm curious as to what you people think about the conflict in terms of the CFE treaty. Between the american-NATO bases in Kyrgyzstan and Romania and whatnot and the not-scrapped missile shield program I feel that there was no scenario where Crimea wouldn't get annexed after a pro-western revolt. Russia had to deal with Sevastopol now, before it became a direct confrontation with the west.

 

[Rage Racer]

From Daily Mail. And people really believe this crap?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rces-escalate-attacks-pro-Moscow-militia.html
They fixed it now.

 

[Dhalism]

there is a reason this site exists http://www.shouldireadthedailymail.com/

noone believes daily mail.

well i guess thats a lie isnt it.
A lot of.. less informed people believe daily mail.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Why it's a picture of a blow-up doll? I get the idea it's supposed to symbolize something?

And, no, not just that Ukraine likes women.

 

[SMfan]

Hy guys, got a little off-topic question for y'all (although it is connected to the crisis).

How is May 8th called and celebrated (maybe celebrated isn't the best word here) in your country and how do you feel about it? I'd also like to know which symbols are associated with it.

Now about the connection to the situation in Ukraine.
George ribbons used to be exclusively a symbol of remembrance of the Soviet WW2 veterans in Russia and was accepted in other post-Soviet countries. (exclusively - meaning, only a symbol of one thing)

Now pro-Russian activists and separatists use George ribbons as their sign in Ukraine. And this 9th of May (we got the celebration on the 9th) those ribbons will not be used in Ukraine (obviously), Belarus and Kazakhstan (much less obviously, since these 2 countries are considered Putin's friends and rightfully so).

There're some other aspects of such events I'd like ro talk about, but let's see if anybody's even interested in rhe topic.

 

[Rage Racer]

well i guess thats a lie isnt it.

About the nurse been killed by a Russian column, yes.

Why it's a picture of a blow-up doll? I get the idea it's supposed to symbolize something?

And, no, not just that Ukraine likes women.

It has a red & black flag on it, the flag used by Ukrainian nationalists and particulary Right Sector (the enemy of this militia). The doll symbolizes the nationalists as a bitch.

 

[Xilor]

That's pretty bad of the Daily Fail right there. I saw a video report of that woman's funeral and her relatives were actually burning a Ukrainian flag during the processions.

How is May 8th called and celebrated (maybe celebrated isn't the best word here) in your country and how do you feel about it? I'd also like to know which symbols are associated with it.

I don't think anyone cares about it in this part of the hemisphere really (though the Americans love to boast about the "major" role they played in WW2). I do know some Russian activists in NYC are handing out George ribbons in Times' Square. I saw it reported on Russian First Channel (Perviy Kanal) so obviously they're only showing the good stuff, but I can imagine that some less educated people would associate the ribbon with communism or the separatists in Ukraine, and act less than favorably towards it.

On a side note, I have a "Russia" sticker in the back window of my car, and the amount of people that don't let me change lane, don't let me merge onto the highway, etc. has went up quite a lot these past few months.

 

[SMfan]

...but I can imagine that some less educated people would associate the ribbon with communism or the separatists in Ukraine, and act less than favorably towards it...

Hehehe, there're obviously some less educated people, but realistically, symbols do change their meaning, and that is happening to the George ribbon as well. And not just for our post-Soviet neighbours, but for some Russians as well. I unno, should I open a new thread about it?

 

[GTracer98]

Hy guys, got a little off-topic question for y'all (although it is connected to the crisis).

How is May 8th called and celebrated (maybe celebrated isn't the best word here) in your country and how do you feel about it? I'd also like to know which symbols are associated with it.

Now about the connection to the situation in Ukraine.
George ribbons used to be exclusively a symbol of remembrance of the Soviet WW2 veterans in Russia and was accepted in other post-Soviet countries. (exclusively - meaning, only a symbol of one thing)

Now pro-Russian activists and separatists use George ribbons as their sign in Ukraine. And this 9th of May (we got the celebration on the 9th) those ribbons will not be used in Ukraine (obviously), Belarus and Kazakhstan (much less obviously, since these 2 countries are considered Putin's friends and rightfully so).

There're some other aspects of such events I'd like ro talk about, but let's see if anybody's even interested in rhe topic.

In Latvia it's Nazi defeating day, 9th of May is European day.

The Latvian governement is telling people not to celebrate these days, simply because of the tension right now.

Also I read that near the Victory Monument in Riga, which symbolizes the Nazi defeat by the Soviet army, there won't be any George ribbons distributed, and also there won't be tranlation of the events to Moscow. The US meanwhile is trying to convince Latvia about Putin next invading Latvia.

 

[Xilor]

Canada imposing more sanctions on Russia over their "illegal occupation of Ukraine and provocative military activity". Of course the article doesn't even precise what kind of provocative military activity they're talking about, exactly.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ukraine-crisis-canada-slaps-more-sanctions-on-russia-1.2631513

The interesting thing however is the readers' opinions at the bottom of the page. Just looking through the first 10-20 comments, almost everyone is blasting Harper for being the boneheaded oaf that he is. Thankfully this nation isn't as brainwashed by the media as our cousins to the south, yet.

 

[Rage Racer]

Canada imposing more sanctions on Russia over their "illegal occupation of Ukraine and provocative military activity". Of course the article doesn't even precise what kind of provocative military activity they're talking about, exactly.

Russia should impose sanctions on America for ruining our roads, littering on our streets, forcing our police to take bribes and pissing in our elevators.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

The elections are coming soon in both provincial and probably federal elections here. Harper can't afford sanctions right now.


I'm bothered by that news. We're supposed to be that friendly nation of igloos and polar bears.

 

[Rage Racer]

I'm bothered by that news. We're supposed to be that friendly nation of igloos and polar bears.

 

[GTracer98]

What really struck me was how the US thinks that the coup was constitutional and correct but the referendum was not. Seems legit.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Putin is reportedly calling for the separatists in Donetsk to abandon their planned referendum and instead move in line with the wider Ukrainian elections. He also says that the soldiers gathering by the border are backing down, though this is yet to be independently verified. Kiev's reaction has been to completely dismiss this as hot air and postulating. And while you can understand their scepticism, they probably could have handled it better - there's a big difference between "it's all a bunch of empty promises" and "we welcome the move, but we need to see action". I suppose we can chalk it up to inexperience, although it's another fumble by the Ukrainians. I can appreciate that they are upset and angry with the situation, but after accusing Putin of wanting to start a third world war, they're not helping.

 

[Rage Racer]

Putin is reportedly calling for the separatists in Donetsk to abandon their planned referendum and instead move in line with the wider Ukrainian elections.

...But the DPR officials decided to provide the referendum anyway. However, they say that provocations, terrorist acts, and diversions by pro-Kiev forces are possible on the day of referendum.

 

[Xilor]

20 more people dead in Mariupol as Ukrainian forces attacked a police headquarters occupied by pro-Russian militants in an attempt to drive the "terrorists" out. The building was set on fire and there's also reports of police officers amongst the dead.

Meanwhile, the USA continues to rage about Putin, this time over his visit to Crimea to celebrate Victory Day, which they call "unnecessary and provocative".
http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.589768

 

[Rage Racer]

Civilian casualties confirmed, too. Awesome counter-terrorist operation. So clean.

And the locals support the government's actions pretty much, too - yelling them words like "****ing fascists! This is our land, get the **** outta here, occupants! I'll s*** on your graves, bitches!".
I watched a video where the troops shot some civilians and killed one. Here. (Drama on 7:00!)
If everyone protesting against Kiev is "terrorist", then they'll have to kill all these civilians? Wow, so democratic, such freedom. Even Stalin never heard of such democracy.

pro-Russian militants

Y'know, I think, calling them 'pro-Russian' is like calling the Syrian rebels 'pro-American'.

Meanwhile, the USA continues to rage about Putin, this time over his visit to Crimea to celebrate Victory Day, which they call "unnecessary and provocative".

Why the **** do they decide for someone else what's necessary and what's not? And condemn for doing something unncessary? And what's provocative here if the Crimeans were happy to see him?

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

YouTube comments are typically aggressive, although with many more wishes of death.



I never thought a country could disagree as much and as violently...


One suggests "Time for Russia to bring troops."

Next, many people break out into an incomprehensible argument with "die" (note: not the German word, as I first read) being the most common word.


I'm really doubting any and all chances of re-unification, now especially. Velvet Divorce 2.0, wherein the citizens of a formerly united country realize that they can no longer trust each other?

 

[Rage Racer]

Ukraine has already buried her unity. Or, should I say, burned. In the Trade Union House of Odessa.