Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[Xilor]

Y'know, I think, calling them 'pro-Russian' is like calling the Syrian rebels 'pro-American'.

Honestly I'd call most of them "brave countrymen defending their rights" if it was up to me. But it won't sit well with everyone of course.

Why the **** do they decide for someone else what's necessary and what's not? And condemn for doing something unncessary? And what's provocative here if the Crimeans were happy to see him?

It's all part of their propaganda strategy. Portray absolutely everything Putin does or says in a negative light. The sad part is that the majority really do believe in it. Just yesterday for example I was talking to a co-worker who was convinced that Putin's goal was to recreate the USSR.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Actually, I fear more people have already been killed in Ukraine than in the Velvet Revolution. Here's hoping for something that is not similar to Yugoslavia's "version" of the Velvet Divorce...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_Yugoslavia

I am seeing numerous similarities, although the situations are quite different.


I still would like to hear what Ukrainians think of Russia, from both the independent viewpoint and nationalistic viewpoint.

It's all part of their propaganda strategy. Portray absolutely everything Putin does or says in a negative light. The sad part is that the majority really do believe in it. Just yesterday for example I was talking to a co-worker who was convinced that Putin's goal was to recreate the USSR.

Interestingly, several citizens of Ukraine (from what I've read on YouTube comments, at the very least) would currently welcome the protection offered by Russia. Putin wouldn't want to re-create the USSR, (that would be a bit of a Pandora's box situation) but rather to de-escalate and make Russia into the "hero of the East" as his propagandists would say. And, since it would see the lives of many innocent Ukrainians saved, I'm not terribly against it...


...Unless Putin actually does take a serious, communist swing and become the next dictator.

 

[GTracer98]

I've read on some sources that Putin has said: "The greatest geopolitical tragedy in the 20th century was the dissolution of the Soviet Union."

I don't even know, seriously, maybe Putin meant something deeper by that...

Meanwhile those shootings continue, more civilians are being injured, massive celebrations of 9th of May here in Riga which most people call "Russian scum", Latvians thinking they have the rights to insult all the Russian people...

http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...adimir-putin-call-breakup-ussr-greatest-geop/

Some opinions by Clifford Gaddy.

 

[Xilor]

According to a relatively recent poll (conducted late 2013) 55% of Russians think the dissolution of the USSR was harmful for Russia. So in a way, you could say that Putin is simply representing the opinion of the majority of the population.
Even more important is that 7 of the 11 former USSR countries (including Ukraine and Latvia) feel the exact same way.
Here's a link to the article: http://america.aljazeera.com/articl...ts-ofexsovietstatessayussrbreakupharmful.html

Its important to note though that they're talking of the recreation of USSR's borders and its centralized government, not about communism, the idea of which is dead and buried even in Russia.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Such thoughts are even (uncommon but...) existent in East Germany:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostalgie


However, if most were given the choice, I strongly believe that the choice would be to remain as a separate entity from a re-unified "USSR" because of the inevitable western reaction. Even if "USSR" were to be re-unified (which I doubt, again) I even more highly doubt that it would result in another cold war, or anything worse.

"USSR" in quotation marks because it would likely be a peaceful, non-soviet existence with relatively benign leaders. I doubt the remainder of the world would support anything else.

 

[Rage Racer]

^Kinda like this.
Communism is an utopia. However, there's still not everyone got over with it, some people keep dreaming about resurrecting the "USSR 2.0" with a new Stalin in power. Lol.
But. When I (and many people around me here) think of USSR, we consider the good things it had - industry, science, aerospace engineering (the first man into space, and more), medicine, education, safety, military power (and the glory of the Red Army who defeated Nazis), influence and authority in the world. And not "Stalin, millions of repressed, KGB, Gulags, no freedom" all that crap.

With the collapse of the Soviet Union, most of the good legacy was lost, and certainly not only in Russia but in other post-Soviet countries too. Take the Baltic states for example (@GTracer98 and @Jet Badger ). In the Soviet era, they used to have good industry, especially the electronics. Latvia also used to make cars (RAF minivans), trains (uh, they're still produced), but most of this great legacy is lost nowadays.

When people miss the Soviet times, they miss the times when they lived in a great country, stable and independent from everyone. I, too, think that the Union was great, but IMO it was ruled by the wrong people.
Look at Belarus. We call it "the little Soviet Union", the West calls it "the Europe's last dictatorship". But it's not too bad. In some aspects, this country is even better to live in than RF. I think, if USSR had better government and did not break (Gorbie tried to reform the state but he screwed everything up), it could be like big Belarus today.

Some people predict that the "Soviet Union 2.0" will be gathered sooner or later. Not under the ideas of communism, but the unity may be reborn. And the new superpower will appear on the world map.
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Aww, vatnik dreams

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

A return to Marxist's most simple ideology of "an eternal brotherhood of man" (reworded to include women or mankind) is - I believe - the dream of every truly communistic state. However, these states always end up being run by someone like Stalin, Putin or Khrushchev... Lenin is regarded as a demigod because he embodied those visions.


Ukraine needs another Lenin - the guy who can use cunning, wit, and benevolence to lead the nation, for right now and in the future. If that person dreams of a peaceful communist nation, I will personally not have any problem with that. But, now more than ever, good relationships between nations is more important than ever. What happened in
Syria with Al Assad was the result of his poor relationships with other nations. Russia and China were his only allies... If one side of this unrest in Ukraine gets almost complete international support, they're likely to come out on top.

 

[BobK]

A return to Marxist's most simple ideology of "an eternal brotherhood of man" (reworded to include women or mankind) is - I believe - the dream of every truly communistic state. However, these states always end up being run by someone like Stalin, Putin or Khrushchev... Lenin is regarded as a demigod because he embodied those visions.


Ukraine needs another Lenin - the guy who can use cunning, wit, and benevolence to lead the nation, for right now and in the future. If that person dreams of a peaceful communist nation, I will personally not have any problem with that. But, now more than ever, good relationships between nations is more important than ever. What happened in
Syria with Al Assad was the result of his poor relationships with other nations. Russia and China were his only allies... If one side of this unrest in Ukraine gets almost complete international support, they're likely to come out on top.

Lenin? Benevolent? What you been smoking, boy? I'll grant he wasn't as ruthless as Stalin, but Stalin would be a tough "standard" to match. But benevolent? Seriously?

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Lenin? Benevolent? What you been smoking, boy? I'll grant he wasn't as ruthless as Stalin, but Stalin would be a tough "standard" to match. But benevolent? Seriously?

The 21st century version would be benevolent. I also was comparing Lenin to Stalin.

But, in the end, every leader is benevolent to the people that leader likes. I would not be surprised if someone told me that they had a pleasant experience with Hitler our Stalin - there are two sides to every face... And the public side tends to be a brown nosed, benevolent side, while the other is a worrying problem.

Otherwise, there would be a coup or revolution.

 

[Jet Badger]

The good things that people remember about the USSR were the same things that chewed it from the inside. People remember social guarantees, "take whatever you want" facrory policy, free cars and apartments for ex soldiers and other government workers. All nice and dandy for the end user but at whose expence did all that came from? Surely even with the best wishes you can't keep a country, which budget only decreases through time, stable.

 

[Azuremen]

The 21st century version would be benevolent. I also was comparing Lenin to Stalin.

But, in the end, every leader is benevolent to the people that leader likes. I would not be surprised if someone told me that they had a pleasant experience with Hitler our Stalin - there are two sides to every face... And the public side tends to be a brown nosed, benevolent side, while the other is a worrying problem.

Otherwise, there would be a coup or revolution.

So otherwise, you're saying nothing?

EDIT: Since you'll just assume I am following you around to insult you (because persecution complex) I'll clarify.

You basically back pedaled by claiming some new Linen would magically be benevolent.

Then went on to explain how leaders are benevolent in some limited capacity because they have to stay in power. This is common knowledge to anyone that has studied history, at all, in any capacity - people get into power because they scratch other people-with-power's backs.

And you close with the obvious statement that if a leader screws enough/wrong people over, they'll over throw him.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Yes.

 

[SMfan]

MASSIVE REPLY ALERT.

And the locals support the government's actions pretty much, too - yelling them words like "****ing fascists! This is our land, get the **** outta here, occupants! I'll s*** on your graves, bitches!".
I watched a video where the troops shot some civilians and killed one. Here. (Drama on 7:00!)
If everyone protesting against Kiev is "terrorist", then they'll have to kill all these civilians? Wow, so democratic, such freedom. Even Stalin never heard of such democracy.

Don't discount the pro-Kiev people in Donbass. The fact that they aren't in the vis doesn't mean they don't exist. It's just that it's pretty hard to get out in the street when the town has been taken over by some armed people.

Y'know, I think, calling them 'pro-Russian' is like calling the Syrian rebels 'pro-American'.

Uh, what? If they wanna join Russia and frequently use Russian symbols, are they not pro-Russian?
[/quote]

I'm really doubting any and all chances of re-unification, now especially. Velvet Divorce 2.0, wherein the citizens of a formerly united country realize that they can no longer trust each other?

I'm not seeing mass support of separatism there. I mean "there" as the whole SE Ukraine. Trust is a big problem, sure. Pretty much the only way to solve it is by organizing parliamentary elections sometime soon and changing like half the ministers.

Ukraine has already buried her unity. Or, should I say, burned. In the Trade Union House of Odessa.

Factual geographic unity still depends on Russia, though. Short-term, at least.

I've read on some sources that Putin has said: "The greatest geopolitical tragedy in the 20th century was the dissolution of the Soviet Union."

Oh he loves his Soviet-nostalgic crowd.

Its important to note though that they're talking of the recreation of USSR's borders and its centralized government, not about communism, the idea of which is dead and buried even in Russia.

Oh, how I wish it was dead and buried here. But no. Soviet communism is pretty damn popular in Russia.

"The Soviet Union was actually kinda good"
_____________________________________________
Aww, vatnik dreams

Ehh, you know, our "industrial greatness" does look better compared to today (in Russia), but you gotta realize that the effectiveness of most Soviet industries was almost negative. The Soviet system demanded production, so yeah, there were many plants and factories and stuff, but it wasn't because there was real demand for those exact products.

Also, when people say they wanna go back there, they only want the good stuff to come back, but not the overwhwelming poverty and deficit of goods.

 

[Rage Racer]

Don't discount the pro-Kiev people in Donbass. The fact that they aren't in the vis doesn't mean they don't exist. It's just that it's pretty hard to get out in the street when the town has been taken over by some armed people.

I didn't say they don't exist at all. But the majority doesn't support Kiev. I don't think like the Ukrainian people to the west who believe their TV - "those people are loyal to us but scared by the terrorists and can't even say a word against them".

If there were really somehow many pro-Kiev people, there would be brawls between the civilians. Like in Zaporozhye, Kharkov and, hrghm... Odessa.

Uh, what? If they wanna join Russia and frequently use Russian symbols, are they not pro-Russian?

[/quote]
I thought they want to be independent, not join RF. Russia is just the country they trust. And it was easier to get Russian flags than the Donetsk Republic flag. But these days, DPR flags are a lot more common.

However, after so much violence, they won't want to be in one country with Kiev, so there is nothing about "federalization" now. And we're free to call them "separatists" from now on.

Also, when people say they wanna go back there, they only want the good stuff to come back, but not the overwhwelming poverty and deficit of goods.

Deficit - yes, but poverty... I don't think the Union was too poor and bad to live.
Check this out: http://lurkmore.to/Совок#.D0.92_.D1.86.D0.B8.D1.84.D1.80.D0.B0.D1.85
Good article about the Sovok in general.

I still would like to hear what Ukrainians think of Russia, from both the independent viewpoint and nationalistic viewpoint.

I have three friends living in Kiev.
One doesn't want to talk about the politics at all.
The second says he's neutral, "I didn't care much about Yanyk, and his overthrow, and the Maidan events, my life didn't change much. I don't care about Crimea, I believe they always wanted to join Russia. But, the EU association would be cool, if import cars get cheaper!".
And the third, the closest one who I talk to more often, is a Maidan supporter. He doesn't hate or dislike Russian people, but considers Putin an asshole who gets his pincers where he shouldn't. He believes most of the Ukrainian media, and that the "separatists in Odessa have burnt themselves" as the TV says. And he supports the "anti-terrorist operation" in Donbass.
However, he's not a dumbass nationalist, he speaks Russian freely, and not angry about the loss of Crimea, too. He also doesn't like the present government, calls Turchinov a "moron with no balls", and considers them just temporary officials.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

The deficit was caused by the Berlin Wall, multiple wars etc., too... In my German language class, we learned that Gorbachev and various others simply added to the deficit mainly caused by having one of the most impossible borders in the world...

 

[SMfan]

I didn't say they don't exist at all. But the majority doesn't support Kiev. I don't think like the Ukrainian people to the west who believe their TV - "those people are loyal to us but scared by the terrorists and can't even say a word against them".
]
If there were really somehow many pro-Kiev people, there would be brawls between the civilians. Like in Zaporozhye, Kharkov and, hrghm... Odessa.

There's a bunch of people there that just don't want to act. I mean look at the "massive protests" there - they were sooo smawl compared to Maidan. Heck, even compared to protests in Moscow.

I thought they want to be independent, not join RF. Russia is just the country they trust. And it was easier to get Russian flags than the Donetsk Republic flag. But these days, DPR flags are a lot more common.

However, after so much violence, they won't want to be in one country with Kiev, so there is nothing about "federalization" now. And we're free to call them "separatists" from now on.

Te DNR cannot exist on its own economically. Just can't. Even the DNR officials know that. The so-called Head of Election Commitee of the DNR agreed with that about 3 hours ago live on TVRain.

Deficit - yes, but poverty... I don't think the Union was too poor and bad to live.
Check this out: http://lurkmore.to/Совок#.D0.92_.D1.86.D0.B8.D1.84.D1.80.D0.B0.D1.85
Good article about the Sovok in general.

Ehhh, doesn't really say much of substance. Also, the life expectancy graph oddly cuts off at 1960 (and there's no metion of a source). Here's one that starts at 1960:

Google Search link
Not sure if this one is representative either, but there's a source, at least.

About that article as a whole - it calls Hruschov a liberal. That's it. I'm done.

About poverty - well, just look at what people had back then in terms of electronics, cars and tech. Sure, in a lot of cases people didn't have stuff because of the deficit, but they didn't have all that much money to spend either. It wasn't really poverty in terms of the lowest point, but rather the inability to go much above the average.

The deficit was caused by the Berlin Wall, multiple wars etc., too... In my German language class, we learned that Gorbachev and various others simply added to the deficit mainly caused by having one of the most impossible borders in the world...

Your explanation seems kinda vague. I think I get what you said there, but I'm not exactly sure.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Berlin wall was expensive and contributed to USSR deficit. No Berlin wall would mean less expenses for any modern USSR reincarnation...

 

[Rage Racer]

Meanwhile: some Ukrainian BMPs were destroyed in Mariupol.

And something more interesting: there are some empty RPG-26 containers spotted lying around the militia positions, with numbers 254-1-93 (254 - manufacturer code, 1 - issue number, 93 - production year.

RPG-26 is an anti-tank rocket launcher produced in Russia and adopted by the military of RF, Transnistria and Jordan. It was never used by the Ukrainian army. Could be acquired from the border. If the info is true, it may be a proof of the Russian support of the DPR militants. This also explains where they got the Metis anti-tank missile launcher.

 

[SMfan]

Berlin wall was expensive and contributed to USSR deficit. No Berlin wall would mean less expenses for any modern USSR reincarnation...

Well, among many other things, yes.

RPG-26 is an anti-tank rocket launcher produced in Russia and adopted by the military of RF, Transnistria and Jordan.

I'm no expert in this, so are these 26's ?

Googled it, yes they are. And this photo isn't from Ukraine, btw. (the one I posted)

 

[Rage Racer]

Yes, RPG-26 aka Aglen has a rubber cover, unlike the 22 and 18.

"This is for Odessa, bitches!"

P.S. A weapon enthusiast can have a lot of lulz on the Ukrainian news. It says:
These "watering systems" remain on the fields after performance of peaceful and unarmed protesters from Russia.

A mortar shell... with the baseline charge untouched? What, they try to use the mortar "bombs" as landmines?

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Oh, the sweet irony of "BAM!"




Edit: yes, I know it's "vam" but still...

 

[Rage Racer]

The referendum in Donbass is now in progress. The question is: "Do you support the Act of independency of Donetsk People's Republic?", with two answers - "Yes" and "No", written in two languages - Russian and Ukrainian.

As you can see, no "No" answers are visible here...

 

[SMfan]

Two journalists - Ilya Azar and Ilya Barabanov are doing a live twitter uhm, broadcast (twit-cast?) right now.
People take more than one ballot per person. Ballots are given out to pretty much anyone. Azar himself (Russian citizen, lives in Moscow) got a ballot, but didn't vote for obvious reasons.

Big crowds reported at the voting points, but the number of said points is abysmall, so you can't really say what number of people have already voted.

___________________

Great, there's a referendum going on in Moscow right now. And no, Moscow doesn't wanna leave Russia (woulda being fun, tho ). For some reason, lots of people in Moscow are voting in the same referendum as the ones in the "DNR". Just in case, I realize that there are many people in Moscow form SE Ukraine. But considering the fact that even the people in Donetsk don't have actual lists of people eligible to vote...

Also, six buses standing at the the Moscow referendum point - a sign of classic Russian election tricks. Awesome.

 

[Rage Racer]

What, Mr. Churov will help again?

 

[SMfan]

1 dead, at least 2 wounded after the Dnepr battalion (unconfirmed - some say it was the National Guard) tried to take control of Krasnoarmeysk.
They actually did take control of the city administration building. After that a group of unarmed people aproached the pro-Kiev gunmen to tell them to "get out", multiplle shots were fired, one of them hitting a person in the head (the jaw area). The death is not yet confirmed, though he was severely injured and definitely unconcious.

The seemingly omni-present Ilya Azar (@A3AP) was there with Timur Olevskiy (@Olevskiy), although they didn't see the exact moment of the shot. They did confirm, however, that none of the civillians were armed and that the pro-Kiev forces acted in a chaotic fashion.

EDIT: there's a video of some confrontation between the armed people and the civillians, but not the moment of the lethal shot.

______________________

Just recently saw a live video from the place (thanks to TVRain, as always) and the people there went kinda nuts, which is understandable. Soem even started destroying a little nearby shot out of pure rage. Again, I should mention the absence of any and all local authorities.
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Another vid:


Some crazy-looking guy blaming America.
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A guy gets shot in the leg:
[somewhat graphic content]


______________________

So I disagreed with @ITCC_Andrew about Ukraine not being able to keep being united. But if this is the level of professionalism of the Ukrainian forces we're dealing with, I'll probably re-consider.

 

[Rage Racer]

So I disagreed with @ITCC_Andrew about Ukraine not being able to keep being united. But if this is the level of professionalism of the Ukrainian forces we're dealing with, I'll probably re-consider.

Keep being united by force?
It's so easy to support Kiev with an AK pointed on you...

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

I hate being right. I mean, I don't believe it's in the best interests of Ukraine to split, but I also believe it's inevitable.


Things can't go back to the way they were now. Crimea is Russian, and Ukraine is split in the middle by ideological differences. West to West, East to East... It's upsetting to consider even the possibility that I am unfortunately correct. Even as just a possibility, it still seems realistically inevitable, and only my hopes of peaceful reunification keep me in this thread.


The last thing I want to see, is something like the Irish short story "The Sniper", playing out again in Ukraine - civil wars are unspeakably cruel. Family shouldn't be forced to fight each other.

 

[R.S]

This all could have been sorted out without tanks and soldiers... but no.

 

[Rage Racer]

A guy gets shot in the leg:
[somewhat graphic content]

He bleeded to death on the way to hospital.
_______________________________________
I don't understand, if Kiev is not going to recognize this referendum anyway, why to send gunmen to terminate it?
The "Dnepr Batallion" is a unit of the National Guard, sponsored by Kolomoyskiy (some of them arrived on CIT armored cars of PrivatBank).

This all could have been sorted out without tanks and soldiers... but no.

In Crimea, the "dark side" used "poilte people" with guns and light armor (Tigrs and BTRs), and the referendum was carried out peacefully. Because no one had the balls to break the peace on their watch.

It must be so easy and fun to shoot unarmed civilians. But not so fun at even lightly armored militants. And when it comes to heavily armed "gentlemen", one would never want to shoot them at all...

^National Guard of Ukraine when it sees:
1. Civilians
2. Militia
3. Russian army

 

[R.S]

In Crimea, the "dark side" used "poilte people" with guns and light armor (Tigrs and BTRs), and the referendum was carried out peacefully. Because no one had the balls to break the peace on their watch.

Blockading and blasting ships and storming Ukraine barracks is not polite IMO.
Russia have nuclear bomb, huge army and live right next door, of course Ukraine soldiers will just slowly move aside, they are not looking to be the one to make hostile enemy there.

Most people don't want a war, this whole thing with half of Ukraine wanting to be Russia and the other half EU is nothing new and should have been sorted out internally, cleanly and legally(ie recognised/monitored internationally).

Ukraine government idiocy that didn't sort this out soon enough (both pro Russia and pro EU ministers) , but for some reason Russia wanted to step in and inflame the situation.

In the modern world and with today's population density and communication mediums, unless you have a violent military and dictatorship ready to blow its own country up - it is the people with the power.
Ukraine is a well developed country with quite civilised society and beautiful cities, it's a shame things have been let to escalate and boil over like they have.

Russia should have trusted in the Russian support already in Ukraine and kept its soldiers in its pants rather than whipping it out to show everyone forcing premature action.