Russian Invasion of Ukraine

  • Thread starter Rage Racer
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R.S
Blockading and blasting ships and storming Ukraine barracks is not polite IMO.
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Would it be better to have a bloody mess like in Odessa and Donbass?
Crimeans can't stand the nationalists even more. They would explode.

R.S
Russia have nuclear bomb, huge army and live right next door, of course Ukraine soldiers will just slowly move aside, they are not looking to be the one to make hostile enemy there.
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Does it mean we'd nuke them in case of resistance?
They just could not resist. It was counted on. Ukrainian army was completely unfightable in the end of February, it didn't even have a proper command. The SSO (Special Operation Forces) invaded them at night, the troops didn't even understand what's going on when they were blocked. Quick & clean.


R.S
Most people don't want a war, this whole thing with half of Ukraine wanting to be Russia and the other half EU is nothing new and should have been sorted out internally, cleanly and legally(ie recognised/monitored internationally).
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:banghead: How many times should I tell people in this thread that it's no more about EU? Ukraine cannot into EU for at least ten more years. And not about Russia, too (except for Crimea). The south-east voted for independency from Ukraine, not joining RF. But who knows what happens later.

R.S
Ukraine government idiocy that didn't sort this out soon enough (both pro Russia and pro EU ministers) , but for some reason Russia wanted to step in and inflame the situation.
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Step in where and how inflame?

Meanwhile: the referendum result was published, 89.9% of the votes are for DPR's independency. However, I don't think it will mean something. Kiev doesn't recognize it, obviously. And Putin isn't going to invite DPR in RF. But he didn't comment the referendum yet, now let's wait for his speech.
In Luhansk region, 96.2% of the voters supported the independency of LPR (Lugansk People's Republic). It will probably be united with DPR.
 
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MK2golflover
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-...-son-joins-board-largest-ukraine-gas-producer
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Hello, Ukraine! I've come to take your GTS (gas transporting system), gather your own shale gas and sell it to you and Europe!

Meanwhile, some Mi-24 attack helicopters in white UN livery were seen being operated by Ukrainian government forces. But UN troops are not present here. These choppers have been used in a peacekeeping operation in central Africa under a UN mission, but weren't repainted then. Using such liveries in a war conflict beyond UN missions is a direct violation of international laws.
 
R.S
Blockading and blasting ships and storming Ukraine barracks is not polite IMO.
Russia have nuclear bomb, huge army and live right next door, of course Ukraine soldiers will just slowly move aside, they are not looking to be the one to make hostile enemy there.

Most people don't want a war, this whole thing with half of Ukraine wanting to be Russia and the other half EU is nothing new and should have been sorted out internally, cleanly and legally(ie recognised/monitored internationally).

Ukraine government idiocy that didn't sort this out soon enough (both pro Russia and pro EU ministers) , but for some reason Russia wanted to step in and inflame the situation.

In the modern world and with today's population density and communication mediums, unless you have a violent military and dictatorship ready to blow its own country up - it is the people with the power.
Ukraine is a well developed country with quite civilised society and beautiful cities, it's a shame things have been let to escalate and boil over like they have.

Russia should have trusted in the Russian support already in Ukraine and kept its soldiers in its pants rather than whipping it out to show everyone forcing premature action.
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I'm pretty sure the consistent violation of the CFE Treaty by the NATO US significantly limited Russian diplomatic options when it came to potential NATOfication of Ukraine.

MK2golflover
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-...-son-joins-board-largest-ukraine-gas-producer
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I'm a redditor and.. Well the sad part is that it really shows how little people care about truth. I've seen people gather behind empty statements over cited sources simply because it fit their agenda. People will quote directly from ultra right Ukrainian websites and claim it to be objective and then there is the censorship of the Biden news.

Annexing crimea is a dick move, but by god i can't ****ing stand the propaganda. It's repulsive. And their approach to opposition - the idea that it can't possibly exist. It's so easy to dismiss an entire segment of population by claiming they are actually false flag Russians. Where have I heard similar rhetoric before? Oh that's right, during the 2008 elections I was called "not a real american" by the republican agenda.
 
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Just to clarify, is the thread title referring to a referendum between the South and East, or one of the Southeast?
 
Keef
Just to clarify, is the thread title referring to a referendum between the South and East, or one of the Southeast?
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I meant southeast. But Lugansk and Donetsk are more "east" than "south".
Changed to Donbass Referendum.
 
These referendums were an amusing sideshow. Now I want to see the national election pulled off, and in so doing, obtain legitimacy for the Maidan revolution. But what about disruption by separatists?
 
Dotini
These referendums were an amusing sideshow. Now I want to see the national election pulled off, and in so doing, obtain legitimacy for the Maidan revolution. But what about disruption by separatists?
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Right now I'm struggling to work out who's separated from whom and into what :D
 
TenEightyOne
Right now I'm struggling to work out who's separated from whom and into what :D
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Predictably, a trade war is beginning. Russia is cutting the US off from its rocket engines, and is laying the groundwork for cutting the EU off from Russian oil and gas by seeking new deals with energy-hungry China.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/may/15/us-space-military-programme-russia-sanctions

Oh, what a joy it is to see the fruits of regime change appearing before your eyes!

"**** the EU!", said US ambassador to the EU, Victoria Nuland, wife of neocon Robert Kagan.
When Germany dies on the vine for lack of natural gas, and the whole of the European project collapses in a miasma of energy austerity, then you will know - oh too late - the extent of your ****ing.
 
Several countries in the region will run out of natural fuels within 10 years. I'm pretty sure France will in less than 5. That colours the long-term situation somewhat.
 
TenEightyOne
Right now I'm struggling to work out who's separated from whom and into what :D
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The regions of Donetsk and Lugansk (Luhansk in Ukrainian), forming a historic area called Donbass, proclaimed themselves independent from Ukraine as Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) and Lugansk People's Republic (LPR). But not joining RF (yet).
 
ITCC_Andrew
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/16/vladimir-putin-crimea-tatars-russian-ukraine

:grumpy:
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I wonder how The Guardian is trying to show it as persecution of the Crimean Tatar nation. Like Hitler persecuted Jews, lol. Do they have any idea that their language (Crimean Tatar) is now the third official on the peninsula (along with Russian and Ukrainian), while the nationalists in power of Ukraine intend to make Ukrainian the only public language in the whole country? There is also a repatriation program being developed for those who return to Crimea from places where they were deported 70 years ago. Crimean Tatars are now getting reborn as a nation, they'll be able to learn their language in schools, like in all national republics in Russia (Tatarstan, Bashkortostan, Buryatia, etc).

Yes, Mustafa Jemilev, the former leader of Mejlis, was blocked from returning to Crimea. But this doesn't mean "the start of bigger repressions". Stalin is back, yeah yeah.
Mejlis is not the only Crimean Tatar national organization. The other one, Milly Firqa, does not support Kiev. And Mejlis is suspected of some "extremist activity" by the "Prosecutor-chan", Natalia Poklonskaya.

"They want to make us all Russian citizens, but there's no democracy in Russia," Dzhemilev said. "We're used to living more freely."
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But is there democracy in Ukraine? :D The "democratic" Ukrainian government uses AK's and even artillery on those who don't support them.

Sahri Mustafayev, one of those who closed roads, said he had been fined 15,000 rubles (£260) last week along with at least 10 others, adding that 200 others also faced fines.
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You guys shoudn't have blocked the roads and you'd be fine.

Damn, do they really see Russia as an islamophobic country where Muslims are being repressed? :lol:
 
Is there proof that they aren't, though?


Side-note: even an Islamic girl (born after the Bosno-Serb war) from Bosnia in my area hates the local Serbians because of the many war crimes she didn't see. It's not like Canadian Serbians did anything to her from Canada, where they have remained since the 80s...

Sometimes people just remember the grudges without reason or logic.
 
Liquid
Is the Russian Government any better?
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At least you won't be shot to death by the soldiers of your own army if you protest against the government here.
Maybe it's not much better, but it's definetly not worse.
I can say I feel better here with this "bloody Putin's dictatorship" (as you may see it) than I would in Ukraine after such "democratic" changes.
 
What's happening in Crimea now? There's some info.

My relatives from Crimea called me. Russia keeps repressing people there! Despite of the massive protests, they raised the pensions and salaries for state workers (teachers, doctors, etc). The occupation government now pays for birth of the second child in the family. My nephew, who joined the Russian Black Sea Fleet, now has a salary of $3000 (instead of $250 he received in the Ukrainian) a month and will receive an apartment by the 1st of September. The agressors from Russia, against our will, updated the equipment in two hospitals and three policlinics. The vehicles of public transport are updated, too. The rescue department has received new cars, modern equipment and even an aircraft. This summer, lots of Russian tour-occupants will visit Crimea, spend billions of rubles there and raise the Crimean economy without permission of the locals. So these are the results of the Russian occupation...
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Meanwhile in Ukraine:
Two Russian LifeNews journalists are detained by Ukrainian government forces.
The Donbass militants report that 10 Ukrainian soldiers were killed by the National Guard for trying to defect to the DPR militia.
 
Goddamn occupants! How dare they invest their dirty money to Crimea and make Crimean people live better while Ukraine is running deeper and deeper into debts and poverty? This is so unfair! :D
Crimeans should share all the troubles, hardships and misery with their Ukrainian brothers! For the saint democracy!
 
Rage Racer
Goddamn occupants! How dare they invest their dirty money to Crimea and make Crimean people live better while Ukraine is running deeper and deeper into debts and poverty? This is so unfair! :D
Crimeans should share all the troubles, hardships and misery with their Ukrainian brothers! For the saint democracy!
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You know, being the original Russian citizen, I'd prefer my tax money to go back to me and the other Russian citizens and not to Putin's fun'n'games. But who asking those damn Russians, right? :(
Also, I have no doubt that about 80% of the "investments" will go into very un-people's pockets and wallets.

______________________________________


I'd love to take part in the conversation above, but there's just not enough time for it. Ehh.
Instead I'll just quickly retell/translate a bunch of articles about Donbass (fun fact - some not very literate locals spelled it "Dombas").
Basically, it's a max-depression region, >90% of everything (starting with the coal business) there is owned by Rinat Ahmetov, who obtained such power in the Yanukovich years. Ahmetov with the Yanuk administration made a series of clearly f'ed up deals that I'm too lazy to re-explain, but basically Ahmetov was selling over-priced electricity to a govt-owned distributor. As a result of that Ahmetov got a ton of undeserved money (guess who he split it with), meawhile the Ukrainian nuclear power plants are in a state of near-bankruptcy, cause nobody was buying their (CHEAPER) energy.
Also he's doing some straight up villainous stuff by buying low-quality coal literally dug up by the locals. There are many illegal quarries using (practically) slave labor. People there work for food (well, for money, of course, but only enough to get the food) since their childhood and until their early death.
Right now Ahmetov is in a position of power to bargain with the Kiev authorities. He can offer them a complete wipeout of separatist activity in the region for some benefits (no idea what they might be). Kiev, however, is hesitant to associate itself with Ahmetov, because, frankly, neither Maidan or anti-Maidan like him.
There's also a really good article detaling why Maidan and anti-Maidan want exactly the same things. But Maidan people call those things "European values" and the anti-Maidan dudes have a Soviet-nostalgic hatred of anything Western, sparked by the Russian propaganda.

I'll add the links to some of those articles when I'm able to.

Added:
http://www.kermlinrussia.com/#!-/cmbz/F47748D9-50C6-4174-957E-927F8A8C091A
http://www.kermlinrussia.com/#!/cmbz/E1E09C98-AD03-48B9-A033-88AC5AB931CC
http://www.colta.ru/articles/society/3243
 
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SMfan
You know, being the original Russian citizen, I'd prefer my tax money to go back to me and the other Russian citizens and not to Putin's fun'n'games. But who asking those damn Russians, right? :(
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If Crmeans want to be Russian citizens - why shouldn't the tax money go to them?

Also, I have no doubt that about 80% of the "investments" will go into very un-people's pockets and wallets.
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Kickbacks? :lol: Just take it as a normal Russian evil reality. "This is Russia, relax!"
Nothing is done without kickbacks here, but so isn't in Ukraine. The country of salo and horilka isn't better in terms of corruption, and unfortunately, it doesn't seem to get better in the not so distant future. Yatsenyuk & Co are just the same kind of bunch of oligarchs as Yanukovich & Co. It's just a rival gang.

And some of those funds will be actually spent to improve the standard of living in Crimea. Not everything is going raspil-ed, haha. Besides, this money is coming from the reserve fund, so there's no need to worry about our own belts getting tightened. So what's bad about it? Would it be better to let Crimea roll deeper into s*** along with the whole Ukraine? And have the local anti-government protesters slaughtered by some Right Sector / National Guard / any other radical nationalist groups?

I'll add the links to some of those articles when I'm able to.
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Seems interesting to read. Waiting for the links.
That Ahmetov guy is a really interesting person.
 
Rage Racer
If Crmeans want to be Russian citizens - why shouldn't the tax money go to them?
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Nobody asked us if WE want them to be Russian citizens. And, yeah, millions of vatniks are screaming "KrymNash" (Crimea'sOurs), but it is in fact a matter of principle.
Kickbacks? :lol: Just take it as a normal Russian evil reality. "This is Russia, relax!"
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You just summed up teh biggest problem in Russia. Whatever the F happens, everybody's cool with it. It's called slave mentality, and I wanna take no part in that movement.
And some of those funds will be actually spent to improve the standard of living in Crimea. Not everything is going raspil-ed, haha. Besides, this money is coming from the reserve fund, so there's no need to worry about our own belts getting tightened. So what's bad about it? Would it be better to let Crimea roll deeper into s*** along with the whole Ukraine? And have the local anti-government protesters slaughtered by some Right Sector / National Guard / any other radical nationalist groups?
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The s**t in Ukraine wouldn'ta been stirred without our help. The NatGuard only attacked the cities where armed "protesters" (criminals - there's no other word). Yeah, some of their actions were pretty stupid, but that's because of the general state of the Ukrainian army/police.
Seems interesting to read. Waiting for the links.
That Ahmetov guy is a really interesting person.
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Yeah, here you go:
http://www.kermlinrussia.com/#!-/cmbz/F47748D9-50C6-4174-957E-927F8A8C091A
http://www.kermlinrussia.com/#!/cmbz/E1E09C98-AD03-48B9-A033-88AC5AB931CC
http://www.colta.ru/articles/society/3243

Btw, now Ahmetov is pro-Ukraine all of the sudden. And Kiev is calling back forces from the East. And there are "spontaneous" protests in Donetsk, against the "Republic".
5 days to presidential elections...


http://www.colta.ru/articles/society/3243
 
:lol:

"Russia is on to me... Kiev leaders are new to this game... Maybe I can trick the Pro-Kiev leaders into believing me..."

Ahmetov is funny.

---------------------------------------

Regarding Crimea joining RF, just be glad it's not the other way around. Quebec trying to leave Canada was a huge PITA. They wanted independence, we were willing to hear them out. They wanted assimilation to ensure the continuation of Quebec culture. That was a wonderful idea. But, they wanted our mint to make Canadian dollars and send it to them.


Rubbish. We're not going to help Quebec to ruin our economy... Same with Czechoslovakia / Velvet divorce... And even pre-fascist pre-Nazi Germany. People will remain a single, unified and happy country until the economy is threatened or damaged. So, if RF investments in Crimea pay off, I expect things will be alright, @SMfan .
 
ITCC_Andrew
:lol:
So, if RF investments in Crimea pay off, I expect things will be alright, @SMfan .
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Oh, sweet dreams.
Life in Crimea won't get much better. I mean the pro-Russian population will love it, but that's it. Y'know, they may build some infrastructure, like roads and stuff, but that's the extent of it. Right now the biggest Russian investment in Crimea is OMON (Police Special Forces).
Yeah, on average Ukraine ain't much better than in Russia, but there're possibilities of a better future.

And about regions trying to leave - we've had one - called Chechnya.
 

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