Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[DK]

Well, I doubt that a lot of people would be interested in visiting a country where Putin is the dictator.

 

[Rage Racer]

Well, I doubt that a lot of people would be interested in visiting a country where Putin is the dictator.

Why?
Uh, if they come to take part in illegal rallies, riots or break the law in any other way - then yes, they should not want to visit this country.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Well, I doubt that a lot of people would be interested in visiting a country where Putin is the dictator.

I'd go tomorrow, given the opportunity, Russia's history is amazing. There are many more dangerous countries that one could visit, just avoid the known flashpoints as you would anywhere.

 

[DK]

Why?
Uh, if they come to take part in illegal rallies, riots or break the law in any other way - then yes, they should not want to visit this country.

I just thought that tourists would be wary of visiting a country that doesn't value human rights highly...but then again, Egypt under Mubarak was still a tourist hotspot, so I'm willing to admit I might have not thought my post through.

 

[Rage Racer]

Are you trying to tell me that I live in a totalitary country where any fart in the direction to the Emperor would result in arrest and imprisonment in a Stalin-era GULag camp?

I just thought that tourists would be wary of visiting a country that doesn't value human rights highly...

Well... what do you mean by "doesn't value human rights highly"? How can a tourist have his rights violated here?

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

People were clapping for fifteen minutes at one of Stalin's speeches. Who is stupid enough to be the first to stop clapping?


...Probably a foreigner with no idea of the consequences of being such person.

 

[GTracer98]

If I'm correct, the presidential elections are to be held tomorrow, right?

 

[Rage Racer]

Yes, tomorrow is 25th.
Looks like Poroshenko will be the winner...

 

[GTracer98]

Yes, tomorrow is 25th.
Looks like Poroshenko will be the winner...

Yep, let's see, what he does to Ukraine.

 

[Rage Racer]

The detained Russian journalists were released, thanks to the Chechen president Ramzan Kadyrov and his representatives in Kiev.
Sloviansk is still on fire. An Italian journalist and a Russian translator were killed and a French journalist was wounded by an explosion of mortar bomb.

Although the country is at war, the elections are going. Most people on the east are boycotting them though. Only 2 of 12 voting points are working in Luhansk region (self-proclaimed as Lugansk People's Republic), and it's all unclear with the Donetsk Republic.
I asked my friend in Kiev, who is he voting for. He said, "I don't know yet. Every candidate is an asshole!".

So, who are they voting for? Let's see:

Petro Poroshenko (poll rating - 44.6%). According to Forbes, the 7th of the richest people in Ukraine ($1.3 billion). Owns Ukraine's biggest confetionary holding - Roshen. This is where his nickname comes from - "Chocolate King". One of the Maidan sponsors. Also sponsored the Orange Revolution of Viktor Yuschenko in 2004, and was assigned a secretary of the National Security Council. Was also the foregn minister and the economics minister, but no longer than a year.
Supports Ukraine's membership in NATO and EU.

Yulia Timoshenko (8.4%) - the first female prime minister in Ukrainian history. Nickname is "Gas Princess". In the 2010 president elections, received 45.47% of the votes, just 3% less than Viktor Yanukovich. In August 2011, she was sentenced to 7 years in prison for "abuse of authority at signing gas contracts with Russia". Maidan got her out of prison. Half of the present Ukrainian government are her people. Timoshenko supports the integration to EU and NATO.

Serhiy Tihipko (7%) - the vice prime minister in Yanukovich's government, a former banker. 12th place in the Forbes rating of the richest Ukrainians. He does not support the anti-seperatist operation in eastern Ukraine. Calls the Odessa tragedy "a ruthless provocation". Took third place in the 2010 president elections (13% of the votes).

Anatoliy Hrytsenko (7.5%) - the Yuschenko's analyst in his election headquarters. Worked on probation in the USA. Was a defence minister in three Cabinets of ministers in the row - Timoshenko's, Yuriy Ekhanurov's and Yanukovich's. Was blamed on corruption and army breakdown. A supporter of the membership in NATO.

Oleg Lyashko (5.4%) - a leader of the Radical Party. Called to fight for Crimea. Was involved in a gay scandal, convinced for plunders in the '90s. Was involved in the massacre in Mariupol, where a squad of National Guard shot the police and unarmed protestors. Rumored to have personally tortured captured rebels in eastern Ukraine.

Mikhail Dobkin (2.6%) - ex-governor of Kharkiv region and ex-mayor of Kharkiv. The only candidate calling for federalization of Ukraine and joining the Customs Union of Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan.

In total, there are 21 candidates. Including the leader of Right Sector, Dmytro Yarosh. But his rating is about 1%.
But the brightest critics of the acting Ukrainian goverment - the deputy of Verkhovna Rada and "Southeast" movement leader, Oleg Tsarov and the Communist Party leader, Petro Symonenko - were forced to leave the president race due to violence threats.

 

[Rage Racer]

The Chocolate King won.
Gas Princess is upset... Drinking for the loss.

 

[terminator363]

That dude looks like Moby...

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Act 8: peace?

*didn't watch news*

 

[terminator363]

No but they have cats at election centers now:



Skip 7:25

 

[Rage Racer]

Act 8: peace?

*didn't watch news*

Act 8 - hell no.
Donetsk is on fire. Civilian casualties. Artillery fire in Lugansk region. &@#* is getting a lot worse.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Wishful thinking.

 

[GTracer98]

Act 8 - hell no.
Donetsk is on fire. Civilian casualties. Artillery fire in Lugansk region. &@#* is getting a lot worse.

It's all a mess now, that anti-terrorism operation is bullcrap... 👎 And of course, in the comments sections, Latvians are doing anything to insult and condemn Russians in every possible way. Poroshenko is saying everything that the West wants to hear. Promising to end this terror; yeah, by killing everyone of course.

True stability in Ukraine will be hard to achieve for a long time, since it's quite a young and a very mixed country.

 

[Dotini]

Act 8 - hell no.
Donetsk is on fire. Civilian casualties. Artillery fire in Lugansk region. &@#* is getting a lot worse.

Overnight BBC reported scores killed and hundreds wounded. But, on the other hand, they hinted these numbers could be inflated by Chechens terrorists pouring over the border in truckloads.

It seems Russia will back off for now, let proxies do the wet work, and allow the situation to simmer just short of a boil.

 

[Rage Racer]

Overnight BBC reported scores killed and hundreds wounded. But, on the other hand, they hinted these numbers could be inflated by Chechens terrorists pouring over the border in truckloads.

Uhm... Chechen terrorists? The Islamic insurgents (Caucasus Emirate), you (or they) mean? Nah, they would never fight for pro-Russians.

I think there are some volunteers from Chechnya. Normal people, just many of them know how to handle a gun. They are excited about the conflict, thanks to their leader - Ramzan Kadyrov, who supports DPR and his people rescued the Russian journalists from Ukrainian detainment. The volunteers formed a unit in the DPR militia and it was called "Vostok Batalion", like the famous Vostok Batalion of Spetsnaz GRU, which consisted mostly of Chechens and fought in the South Ossetian war in 2008 with great results.
However, Kadyrov says he didn't send any of his own troops to Donbass. But you can't believe him by word. Who knows...

I don't think the rebels could have shot those civilians, most of them were hit by artillery and aviation.


This **** has gone too far. Donetsk is the largest city of Donbass area. I have been there. And I never thought it can become a war zone one day...

Latest news:
There's a truce now, so the utility can remove bodies from streets. Around 40 bodies are in the city morgues, the number is not final though;
Yes, there are some Russians citizens in the hospitals of Donetsk (43 wounded people in total, and only 8 of them are confirmed Donetsk occupants), came from Chechnya, Crimea and even Moscow;
A hospital in Donetsk was threatened by the National Guard - if it takes any wounded militiamen, they'll get shot [not confirmed];
Miners came on a strike action, calling to stop the war:

 

[TenEightyOne]

The Chocolate King won.
Gas Princess is upset... Drinking for the loss.

Is she someone important or staff? If she's important... is it normal for the women to dress down like that? He's still in suit and knuckledusters, she's in cheap nylon clothes?

 

[Rage Racer]

 

[terminator363]

Is she someone important or staff? If she's important... is it normal for the women to dress down like that? He's still in suit and knuckledusters, she's in cheap nylon clothes?

Better than a tracksuit...

 

[TenEightyOne]

I'm sitting on my couch, flipping between Fox News and CNN, both of which are talking about the crisis. What channel are you watching?

Accusing me of ignorance will not gain you any credibility.

Saw this today and thought of you; Watching Fox Makes You Less Informed. Students who watched Fox News scored worse on current-events questions than people who didn't watch any.

Fox defend themselves by "considering FDU to be one of the worst undergrad schools in the country", which shows their research capabilities. I found it half-way up the list after a few clicks... they're meh but they're not Fox

Back on topic: Is there confirmation of who the "Ukrainian General" in the helicopter was? Ukraini General's Helicopter 'Shot Down'

 

[SMfan]

But now, Ukrainian energetics are being literally bought by the West. The gas production already is:

And the nuclear power is about to get sold, too.

Yeah, as the result of Yanuk's actions.

On a site note, China has territorial disputes with ALL of its neighbours... except for Russia. All border disputes with RF have been already solved.

Uhm, I wouldn't be so quick to say that.

Naaw. That's a stereotype.
First, far not largely. There are more of Chinese in New York than in the whole Russian Far East. And they populate it irregularly - there are lots of them in Khabarovsk, but pretty little of them in Vladivostok - even Tajiks are more common there.
Second, they don't really populate this area. Most of them just come for a few month, to earn some money, sell their Abibas and other made-in-china BS and go away. One swarm comes one other leaves. And they are no citizens of RF, so de-jure they don't even exist here.

Okay, I don't think either of us has truly legitimate sources of numbers here, so it's kinda pointless to argue.

Isn't it what we already had in 1991-93? But nobody conquered us back then.
Even in this case, the army can still kick ass. And the Red Button is still under someone's hand. One would never try to check if the nukes are ready to launch or not...

Again, won't be done by force.
Also, the system was built on different principles in the SU.

I just thought that tourists would be wary of visiting a country that doesn't value human rights highly...but then again, Egypt under Mubarak was still a tourist hotspot, so I'm willing to admit I might have not thought my post through.

Unless you don't like miriads of cops randomly appearing near the biggest tourist attractions, you're gonna be cool here.

"Propaganda-ass photo".

Dude, Effin' really?!
Not even questioning the validity of that info - that pic is just not intelligent, nor is it respectful to the people. I'd seriously remove that. It's like screaming "PROTECT THA KEEEDS!" - just below any analytical or information standards.

Back on topic: Is there confirmation of who the "Ukrainian General" in the helicopter was? Ukraini General's Helicopter 'Shot Down'

The link you've got has it right - General Sergey Kulchytskiy was killed in that helicpter.
___________________________________________________

Okay, so - a quick digest of the events:

Poroshenko won - unsurprising and not particularly good or bad.

The separatists tried to take over the airport in Donetsk. The Ukrainian army used aviation to succesfully kick the separatists out of there. Several dozens of separatists confirmed killed along with at least one bystander at the aiport. Even though the airport is pretty far away from the city, some buildings were damaged by missed shots by the army.

Chechens confirmed to be fighting on the separatist side - part of the "Vostok battalion" - all Russian "volunteers" (impossible to say how many have actually volunteered).
Today said battalion is clearing the city of Donetsk of barricades and "looking for marauders" - the motives of such actions are so far unclear. They may be trying to seize control of the city.

The army has finally shown some skill and force and have executed an actual opertion, not a series of random actions. However, it would be rather hard for them to continue fighting in the same way within sity boundaries - unless they want a total Grozny re-do. And they don't want it, it seems. Which is good.
Today,

 

[Rage Racer]

Yeah, as the result of Yanuk's actions.

And Yusch's, and Kuchma's, and Kravchuk's... Ukraine was never lucky for leaders.
But, anyway, it's not the fault of "goddamn moskals".

Uhm, I wouldn't be so quick to say that.

Why?

Dude, Effin' really?!
Not even questioning the validity of that info - that pic is just not intelligent, nor is it respectful to the people. I'd seriously remove that. It's like screaming "PROTECT THA KEEEDS!" - just below any analytical or information standards.

Uhm, I think THA KEEEDS really are in danger. Because:
http://russian.rt.com/article/33969
And not only kids: http://vk.com/wall-39695140_698250

The separatists tried to take over the airport in Donetsk. The Ukrainian army used aviation to succesfully kick the separatists out of there. Several dozens of separatists confirmed killed along with at least one bystander at the aiport. Even though the airport is pretty far away from the city, some buildings were damaged by missed shots by the army.

What about this?
Road of Death (graphic content warning):

"Vostok battalion" - all Russian "volunteers" (impossible to say how many have actually volunteered).

What, "Kadyrov's mercenaries" or "Spetsnaz GRU" again?..

 

[SMfan]

Back on topic: Is there confirmation of who the "Ukrainian General" in the helicopter was? Ukraini General's Helicopter 'Shot Down'

The link you've got has it right - General Sergey Kulchytskiy was killed in that helicpter.

And Yusch's, and Kuchma's, and Kravchuk's... Ukraine was never lucky for leaders.
But, anyway, it's not the fault of "goddamn moskals".

Why?

Let's discuss it some other time - I barely have any time to talk about the relevant stuff.

Uhm, I think THA KEEEDS really are in danger. Because:
http://russian.rt.com/article/33969
And not only kids: http://vk.com/wall-39695140_698250

Dude, not RT, please. Not saying they are always lying, but it happens WAAAAY too often. Oh, just look at this: "карательная операция силовиков против востока Украины" (punitive operation [direct reference to Nazi operations] of the security forces against the Eastern Ukraine). Come tha 🤬 on!

And using pictures of dead people with such text is on the level of some stupid-a$$ talk shows. Let's just give facts and discuss 'em, aight? Cause this is just like shouting "Nazis!" at anyone you don't like.

One more thang, the tactic of firng at the military from inside school buildings then running away and telling about "evil attacks on schools" is a straight up terrorist tactic.

What about this?
Road of Death (graphic content warning):

Yeh, looks pretty harsh. Suppose I should add 4-5 people (just form this vid) to the list of confirmed civilian casualties. My info is definitely not complete. Hopefully a more accurate report will be there soon. Heard rumors of 10-20 civilians killed total, but not a lot of evidence.

What, "Kadyrov's mercenaries" or "Spetsnaz GRU" again?..

Not GRU, obviously. But GRU and Kadyrov's people are from whole different leagues.
And knowing how any kind of independent initiative is "supported" in out country (multiplied by a hundred in Chechnya), I don't for a sec believe that Kremlin couldn't stop any of our "volunteers". And in case of "Vostok" - they were most likely directly sent there. Not that they didn't want to be sent, far from it.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Sorry @SMfan, at the time the article didn't have the name in, just a general General

 

[Rage Racer]

Dude, not RT, please. Not saying they are always lying, but it happens WAAAAY too often. Oh, just look at this: "карательная операция силовиков против востока Украины" (punitive operation [direct reference to Nazi operations] of the security forces against the Eastern Ukraine). Come tha 🤬 on!

Well, the name is just the name. They can name it however they want, for their propaganda purposes. Of course they wouldn't call it an anti-terrorist operation.
But let's see the facts. The school was shot (it's not so clear by who, though), so the kids were in danger.
The damage looks much like result of mortar fire.
Even if the militia fired from the school, the army shouldn't attack it with artillery if they know there can be civvies. The operation is called "anti-terrorist", isn't it? So it should suppose the "terrorists" may be taking hostages, and act carefully and precisely, not destroy any building where they hide with 120mm shells. Otherwise it's like catching mosquitoes hiding in grass with a grass cutter.

I don't think the school was shot by the militants, AFAIK, the only artillery they have in Slaviansk is just a couple of Nona cannons. But who knows...

I assume that the Ukrainian army tried to hit a DPR blockpost nearby, but missed because their skills are poor.
Would be good to let the civvies evacuate first...

And knowing how any kind of independent initiative is "supported" in out country (multiplied by a hundred in Chechnya), I don't for a sec believe that Kremlin couldn't stop any of our "volunteers". And in case of "Vostok" - they were most likely directly sent there. Not that they didn't want to be sent, far from it.

I find that strange, too, that trucks full of armed Chechens were easily let through by our own forces. Or our media covers the illegal infiltration in positive light? Of course they could stop the volunteers, but didn't want to.
BTW, they have some rocket launchers that Ukraine cannot have, so they weren't received in the combat area.

@TenEightyOne
Photo of that general taken an hour before his death.
At least claimed so, the date is wrong...

 

[SMfan]

Well, the name is just the name. They can name it however they want, for their propaganda purposes.

Well I don't like propaganda, so F those guys.

But let's see the facts. The school was shot (it's not so clear by who, though), so the kids were in danger.

Well, no. Not in school, at least. Schools have been closed for a while there.

Even if the militia fired from the school, the army shouldn't attack it with artillery if they know there can be civvies.

Oh sure. I was saying that provoking the army to do so is mighty F'd up.

Would be good to let the civvies evacuate first...

The evac seems to be kinda sorta going. Although it's more self-evac. Some pwople just drive their families outta the conflict zone.

I find that strange, too, that trucks full of armed Chechens were easily let through by our own forces. Or our media covers the illegal infiltration in positive light? Of course they could stop the volunteers, but didn't want to.
BTW, they have some rocket launchers that Ukraine cannot have, so they weren't received in the combat area.

Even the "first brigade of helpers" led by "Strelkov" Girkin and financed by Malofeyev coulda been stopped pretty easily. For anyone not in the know, Malofeyev is described by many as a "Russian Orthodox businessman" (as in Russian Orthodox Church). Has lots of money that nobody can name a source of. Also Malofeyev pretty openly supported church-related nationalist groups. These 2 facts mean that our "people in power" had to have known about the "enthusiasts" and most likely gave 'em a green light.

 

[Rage Racer]

Oh sure. I was saying that provoking the army to do so is mighty F'd up.

But you can't deny that the army also hits civilian objects (having nothing to do with militia/separatists/terrorists/whatever you call them) accidentally. In case of indirect fire, artillery crews don't see where the shell falls. They can only count the trajectory. And if the staff is skilled badly (like in the most of Ukrainian army), of course they can miss.

But sometimes I doubt they do it only accidentally...
Airstrike in the center of Lugansk today. At least three people dead.

They keep it real civilian-friendly...