Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[Dotini]

Another gift for Novorossiya fighters to protect themselves, probably.

However, this^ tank is not so new, it's a T-72B (if I'm not wrong). They're owned by Ukraine too, so this could be acquired from a Ukrainian storage base as well. Who knows...

There must be literally many hundreds of these serviceable older tanks available for duty, don't you think?

 

[Rage Racer]

There must be literally many hundreds of these serviceable older tanks available for duty, don't you think?

Yes. T-72 is still the most common MBT in the Russian Ground Forces.
But that article you've linked also shows a T-90A on a military show, like it's the same tank, possibly to make the reader think "it could not be got from anywhere else than Russia". It actually could. But I don't mean it was.

 

[IforceV8]

A few tank pictures. https://twitter.com/JosephHDempsey

 

[Rage Racer]

A few tank pictures. https://twitter.com/JosephHDempsey

I think it's a T-72BA ("T-72BM" is an unofficial and incorrect designation for various mods of the T-72B. It's also another name of the T-72B2, which has another type of reactive armor than this one). A modification of 1999-2000 by Uralvagonzavod, which is exclusive to the Russian military, yes.

Yes, this looks like an early mod T-80. Ukraine used to make the 80 on the Malyshev plant in Kharkiv, but it was the T-80UD mod, which had reactive armor (this one doesn't). This one is old, so it's probably brought from a storage base. But whose? Who knows. There were 165 T-80 in storage in Ukraine by 2013 as Wiki says.

It says "Oplot Spetsnaz" - a special unit of the DPR militia forces.

 

[Dotini]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28951319#

There are reports of rebel tanks capturing the port city of Novoazovsk, with Ukraine defenders in full retreat.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Then 100 new Russian tanks, APCs and rocket launchers roll over the border

It's not an invasion. They were probably using Apple Maps and crossed the border by mistake.

 

[Dotini]

It's not an invasion. They were probably using Apple Maps and crossed the border by mistake.

Actually it is sort of an invasion - an invasion like a blanket of molasses spreading over the land between Russia and Crimea to establish a new fait accompli for the Ukraine government to somehow deal with while negotiations proceed at a snail's pace in another room.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Yes, I know. My post was intended as a parody of some of the ridiculous excuses Moscow has offered. They're not invading - Apple Maps sent them the wrong way. Or an army dog got off its leash and an entire battalion had no choice but to chase it over the border. Or somebody farted in the mess hall, triggering an emergency evacuation, and they all regrouped on the other side of the border.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Yes, I know. My post was intended as a parody of some of the ridiculous excuses Moscow has offered. They're not invading - Apple Maps sent them the wrong way. Or an army dog got off its leash and an entire battalion had no choice but to chase it over the border. Or somebody farted in the mess hall, triggering an emergency evacuation, and they all regrouped on the other side of the border.

I read that Ukrainians have moved all the border signs in a cynical attempt to trick the peace-loving Bear into being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Then, in the dead of night, the signs are stealthily replaced just before the flash bulbs go off to complete the set-up.

 

[Rage Racer]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28951319#

There are reports of rebel tanks capturing the port city of Novoazovsk, with Ukraine defenders in full retreat.

Yep. The rebels are going for full-scale offense, regaining control of Novoazovsk, Slavyanoserbsk and Kirovsk and some other towns. Now fighting for Ilovaysk, possibly will get back to Mariupol.
I was thinking, what's Kiev going to do to ruined Donbass after the victory? But now, the victory itself is pretty questionable...

It's not an invasion. They were probably using Apple Maps and crossed the border by mistake.

Novorossiya invading itself?..

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I read that Ukrainians have moved all the border signs in a cynical attempt to trick the peace-loving Bear into being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Then, in the dead of night, the signs are stealthily replaced just before the flash bulbs go off to complete the set-up.

And there was a little old lady who was struggling to get across the street, so a battalion of Russian soldiers thoughtfully invaded the Ukraine to help her out.

And then there were some Ukrainian Girl Guides who were struggling to sell some cookies ...

 

[Dotini]

I was thinking, what's Kiev going to do to ruined Donbass after the victory? But now, the victory itself is pretty questionable...

Good question, I was thinking the same thing.

The state of Ukraine has swiftly fallen into "failed state" status, with a major chunk missing, bloody internal conflict with heavy weapons in a motionless industrial heartland, ruinous debt, the PM resigned and Parliament dissolved, and no supply of energy with winter coming. A plan for ending corruption is nowhere in sight. All this will be interminable until Donbass is fixed.

Kiev receives only pennies and grudging support from the EU, with Kingpin Germany aligning with Russia in a looming Paris-Berlin-Moscow Axis. I don't see NATO or the US launching drones, missiles, bombers, or boots on the ground in Ukraine. Victoria Nuland and her friends have lit a fire which they alone cannot extinguish. All this will be interminable until Donbass is fixed.

No matter the western histrionics, hand-waving, or sanctions, Russia will pursue its national interests. Period.

I predict Poroshenko and Putin will come to a mutually satisfactory deal once Svoboda gets tired of making loud noises and stinky smoke in the Donbass. Until then, Kiev will continue to get its belly tickled by bear claws.

 

[TenEightyOne]

@Rage Racer, I know you take a very particular view on how the rest-of-the-world's media works with regard to Russia, but this article (from the Beeb, I know you think Cameron writes it, he sooooo doesn't ) seems to be suggesting that the only remaining media in Russia not reporting the invasion are State newspapers. What's your take on the article?

 

[Rage Racer]

@Rage Racer, I know you take a very particular view on how the rest-of-the-world's media works with regard to Russia, but this article (from the Beeb, I know you think Cameron writes it, he sooooo doesn't ) seems to be suggesting that the only remaining media in Russia not reporting the invasion are State newspapers. What's your take on the article?

Well, the Russian media never denied the claims about Russian volunteers fighting for Novorossiya - they mention it like "yeah, but what's bad about it?". However, they don't talk about the Russian supply of the rebels (with weapons, ammo, fuel, etc), but they don't deny it, too. Just ignore. Infowar - nothing personal

The 'war' word is used by them for a long time already, but they prefer to use 'civil war', 'a war of the government with its own people'. And I agree there. This war is civil.

"Echo of Moscow" is a "liberal" news agency that quotes the Western and Ukrainian sources often. They always did it, and there's nothing surprising.

"MK" is known as a pro-Kremlin newspaper, they report what the West and Ukraine say, too, but cover it in an aureole of idiocy - like "look, and people believe this crap? Damn!".

Bloggers on LiveJournal... Damn, those blogs are full of conspiracy BS, I don't even read those. Anyone can sign in on LJ and post anything he thinks.

What do you call an invasion? A supply of weapons and volunteers to one side? I don't agree. We were backing Viet Cong like that, too. But have you heard about "Soviet Union invading Vietnam"? I guess you didn't.
If there were regular Russian forces in Donbass, it would be an invasion. But I don't see any evidence except for some ten VDV soldiers saying they have lost (if they haven't, would they surrender without a fight?).

When Crimea was invaded, Russian media was denying any relation of those "Polite Armed Men" to the Russian Armed Forces. But I knew what's going on, because the equipment of those 'tourists' was telling it clearly.
If Putin invades Ukraine personally, launching missiles from his hands and burning Ukrainian cities with his laser sight - I will believe that, too, if I see proper evidence.

 

[IforceV8]

http://www.trust.org/item/20140828153752-4kts9

MOSCOW, Aug 28 (Reuters) - More than 100 Russian soldiers were killed in eastern Ukraine in a battle this month while helping pro-Russian separatists fight Ukrainian troops, two members of the Russian presidential human rights council said on Thursday, citing accounts of eye-witness and relatives of the dead.

Ella Polyakova and Sergei Krivenko, both members of the council, said around 300 people were also injured in the violence on Aug. 13 near the town of Snizhnye in Donetsk Province, when a column of trucks full of ammunition they were driving was hit by a sustained volley of Grad missiles.

"A column of Russian soldiers was attacked by Grad rockets and more 100 people died. It all happened in the city of Snizhnye in Donetsk Province," said Krivenko speaking by telephone. Polyakova said she had also been given the same figure, of more than 100, for the number of Russian soldiers killed in the attack. (Reporting by Thomas Grove; Editing by Christian Lowe)


http://aco.nato.int/new-satellite-imagery-exposes-russian-combat-troops-inside-ukraine.aspx

 

[Rage Racer]

More than 100 Russian soldiers were killed .

Was there Putin among them?

Seriously, if there really was a Russian invasion, then Ukrainian army would be already screwed up with no serious casualties to RFAF. We don't fight by cannon fodder anymore.

Besides, "Russian soldiers" and "Russian citizens [volunteers]" are different things, not to be confused.
Ukrainian authorities can't believe their glorious army being ass-kicked by some irregular guerilla mobs, so they keep whining about "professional trained Russian Spetsnaz-FSB-VDV-GRU forces" they have to fight, lol.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The state of Ukraine has swiftly fallen into "failed state" status, with a major chunk missing, bloody internal conflict with heavy weapons in a motionless industrial heartland, ruinous debt, the PM resigned and Parliament dissolved, and no supply of energy with winter coming. A plan for ending corruption is nowhere in sight. All this will be interminable until Donbass is fixed.

None of which would be a problem if Moscow left the Ukraine alone.

 

[Dotini]

None of which would be a problem if Moscow left the Ukraine alone.

Agreed. But by the same token, none of it would be a problem if Victoria Nuland had left Ukraine alone. She has much less inherent interest in Ukraine than does Russia.

Anyway, Russia will not leave Ukraine alone, and the EU, NATO and US can do little but whinge until Ukraine and Russia settle it.

 

[Aloha62_2]

Unfortunately given the overwhelming power imbalance 'settle it' is a case of 'How much land can we give Putin to satisfy his desires for now?'

 

[Rage Racer]

Unfortunately given the overwhelming power imbalance 'settle it' is a case of 'How much land can we give Putin to satisfy his desires for now?'

Ah, imperialist Putin wants to conquer the world again.
You really think RF's goal is to annex Donbass? If you do, I think you have no idea what's going on here.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Ah, imperialist Putin wants to conquer the world again.

Dude, we don't all play the "celebrity news" game, feelings about Putin are irrelevant.

What is going on here, and what do you say about Russia being in Ukraine?

 

[Dotini]

Unfortunately given the overwhelming power imbalance 'settle it' is a case of 'How much land can we give Putin to satisfy his desires for now?'

The best idea would be to remove 12 countries from NATO, the 12 that were installed since James Baker promised Gorby that NATO would not be expanded. Then blame it on Clinton, who heedlessly broke the promise.

But that is not going to happen. Next best would be to acquiesce to the current plan being negotiated between Porky and Putin, which gives zero land back to Russia - though it concedes Crimea for which Ukraine would receive compensating payments. The problem here is the indigenous separatists who have proclaimed federalism is not enough for the Donbass, who have now suffered too much at the hands of Kiev and Svoboda.

Maybe a few would settle for Victoria Nuland's head on a spike.

 

[axletramp]

The plot thickens regarding Russian troops in (and possibly being killed) Ukraine.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28949582

The footage from the Russian reporters from the link above:
http://tvrain.ru/articles/video_napadenija_na_zhurnalistov_na_kladbische_pod_pskovom-374596/?video

Relatives of the 'missing' Russian soldiers are asking questions now too:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28968526

 

[Dotini]

The plot thickens regarding Russian troops in (and possibly being killed) Ukraine.

You can't get into fight without getting your hair mussed up a bit.

Now Putin has evidently declared a "New Russia". It seemingly includes the strategic port of Odessa. Look for Ukraine to put up a pitched fight here. If they lose that, what's left of Ukraine would amount to a perpetually failed state.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/why-vladimir-putin-referring-eastern-ukraine-new-russia-1463130

 

[Rage Racer]

Dude, we don't all play the "celebrity news" game, feelings about Putin are irrelevant.

What is going on here, and what do you say about Russia being in Ukraine?

I just love how some people keep demonizing The Crab, especially in Ukraine.

I think, if annexion was a goal, then it would be done quickly and clean, like in Crimea. But what we have in Donbass is a bunch of "politically active people" who thought "eh, Crimea, we want that too!", kicked their new local government (tried to do that in Kharkiv, too, but failed) and settled their own, with blackjack and hookers (c). Then Kiev labeled them as 'separatists', tried to suppress them with force, then the protesters got armed, too. Russia supports the rebels probably because they resist selling their land to America (like the rest of Ukraine is sold). Novorossia seems to be repeating the way of Transnistria (which is still not annexed by RF).

And about the 'missing Russian paratroopers'... Who knows, maybe there are some kind of 'Black Ops' going on. We'll never know the truth in that case. But, it's still strange, what's VDV doing here?..

 

[TenEightyOne]

I just love how some people keep demonizing The Crab, especially in Ukraine.

I think, if annexion was a goal, then it would be done quickly and clean, like in Crimea. But what we have in Donbass is a bunch of "politically active people" who thought "eh, Crimea, we want that too!", kicked their new local government (tried to do that in Kharkiv, too, but failed) and settled their own, with blackjack and hookers (c). Then Kiev labeled them as 'separatists', tried to suppress them with force, then the protesters got armed, too. Russia supports the rebels probably because they resist selling their land to America (like the rest of Ukraine is sold). Novorossia seems to be repeating the way of Transnistria (which is still not annexed by RF).

And about the 'missing Russian paratroopers'... Who knows, maybe there are some kind of 'Black Ops' going on. We'll never know the truth in that case. But, it's still strange, what's VDV doing here?..

The invalidity of Ukraine's media, at least as a commentator on Russian actions, has nothing to do with the validity of other media in other parts of the world.

Do I trust Cameron/Bush either? No. Do I trust Rasmussen? Yes I do, he has nothing to gain for NATO or Norway by making the claims he's making or by faking the evidence.

Your position is slowly moving from "They are not there!", to "whoops, wrong turn!" to "well why would they bother?" to "why would they do it that way?"

You're nearly in central Ukraine dude!

 

[axletramp]

As a general point, I had a chat about these captured Russian troops getting 'lost' in Ukraine with an old friend of mine who's been a career soldier for 20-odd years. Basically the comment from him was that it's impossible to get lost in any sort of group these days. You have accurate pre-briefed maps, personal GPS, vehicle GPS, communications units near you with GPS and direct comms links with larger units which can track you via satellites and have also told you where you need to be. I can't believe that this unit wasn't using any of that technology. If we are to believe the official line that they were simply lost then that leads to two conclusions: 1) That they are lying and knew exactly where their troops were, or 2) They're inept. So which one is it?

 

[Rage Racer]

The invalidity of Ukraine's media, at least as a commentator on Russian actions, has nothing to do with the validity of other media in other parts of the world.

Do I trust Cameron/Bush either? No. Do I trust Rasmussen? Yes I do, he has nothing to gain for NATO or Norway by making the claims he's making or by faking the evidence.

Your position is slowly moving from "They are not there!", to "whoops, wrong turn!" to "well why would they bother?" to "why would they do it that way?"
he
You're nearly in central Ukraine dude!

The problem is, I think NATO takes info from Ukrainian sources, considering them valid. BTW, what do they say about it now? Do they have any evidence?
My position is moving along with the situation in the war zone (as it's seen by me).
I just don't understand, what's the reason for RF to invade? Our officials and media kept telling "we must not get involved here, Kiev keeps provoking us, but we must not let us into this trap!".

As a general point, I had a chat about these captured Russian troops getting 'lost' in Ukraine with an old friend of mine who's been a career soldier for 20-odd years. Basically the comment from him was that it's impossible to get lost in any sort of group these days. You have accurate pre-briefed maps, personal GPS, vehicle GPS, communications units near you with GPS and direct comms links with larger units which can track you via satellites and have also told you where you need to be. I can't believe that this unit wasn't using any of that technology. If we are to believe the official line that they were simply lost then that leads to two conclusions: 1) That they are lying and knew exactly where their troops were, or 2) They're inept. So which one is it?

Maybe it's a surprise for you, but Russian military does not have personal GPS on every soldier.
The paratroopers were captured with their own documents, and their guns were unloaded. Would they go invading someone in that condition?

 

[Denur]

@Rage Racer: Every now and then I wonder how deep Putin's fist is up your ass.

 

[Rage Racer]

@Denur I find your comment kinda insulting.