Russian Invasion of Ukraine

  • Thread starter Rage Racer
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Eunos_Cosmo
I don't personally find the two invasions apples to apples though I agree that the Iraq war was a tremendous mistake. I think what's happening in Ukraine is much worse on multiple levels.
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They are certainly different scenarios, but I'm not sure it's much worse ... certainly it's worse for Europeans. It remains to be seen how bad it gets. If Putin starts throwing threats around at countries like Finland & Sweden it shows that he's really jumped the shark. At what point will the Russian people turn against him?
 
Liquid
"If you don't want us to join NATO, stop being aggressive" has been the rhetoric, in their own individual ways, of Ukraine, Finland and Sweden for years. Thanks to Russia's own actions, they have only wanted to do it more. Russia under Vladimir Putin has demonstrated that it doesn't care and doesn't care about the double standard.
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Indeed
"we would like to join NATO because we worry about Putins motives"

Putin "Joining NATO is an act of aggression"
Invades Ukraine....

Call me old fashioned but in simple terms, It's clear to see why Ukraine wanted to join NATO.

If Ukraine joined NATO it doesn't mean they can start a War with Russia and get backing, it means Russia couldn't start a War without the big boys a come running.
Putin is bat **** deluded.
 
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Keef
It would take a genius, actually. Putin's system involves every aspect of government and economy in Russia. All the wealthiest business owners in the country are effectively "party members" and all the money in Russia flows through Putin's relationships with these business leaders. It's really similar to the Soviet system of party membership, except in the form of unfettered crony-capitalism. Too boot, Putin's government isn't afraid of blatant, publicly visible assassinations and civilian murders, so to challenge that loyalty would be a death sentence. Putin is a very intelligent and effective dictator, likely one of the most effective in history. Our military and intel leaders are careful not to underestimate Russia's capabilities, not because they have a wealth of resources, but because they just don't bother following the rules.
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Putin is a meglomaniac. He's very intelligent in the way Stalin was. Or Gaddafi. Or Assad. They're not.

inCloud
Our propoganda is Goebbels-tier. Around 30% of our citizens are poisoned by it. Also Banality of Evil.
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30% is a pretty standard pecentage everywhere lately regardless of politics. It's not necessarily a bad sign. :)
 
inCloud
Our propoganda is Goebbels-tier. Around 30% of our citizens are poisoned by it. Also Banality of Evil.
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True ... but then I look at the US where apparently more than 30% of the population sincerely believe that the last election was "stolen", that Covid was a Democratic hoax to undermine Trump, that Democrats are America-hating commies etc. etc. It no longer seems necessary to have a state-run propaganda system to poison people's minds. :indiff:
 
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aXrnBBv_700b.jpg



”What would you say to Putin right now?” Asked by reporter to a Finnish woman.​

 
Gas12
If Ukraine joined NATO it doesn't mean they can start a War with Russia and get backing, it means Russia couldn't start a War without the big boys a come running.
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Unfortunately, and we've seen it in this thread, some people really do believe NATO would start a war or even invade Russia. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of what NATO actually is and something that could be easily cleared up by spending 5 minutes on Wikipedia.

It wouldn't surprise me if most of Europe doesn't enter into NATO after this since there's really no telling how far Putin is planning on going.
 
Biggles
OK ... but in the midst of all this, it's useful to bear in mind that the US under George Bush attacked Iraq on the flimsiest of pretexts leading to a devastating loss of life & the disruption of the entire region. Not only that, but Bush had the active support of the UK led by an (ostensibly) "social democratic" government. Even though there was a lot of resistance to the Iraq war, it didn't stop it from happening.
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I agree with you and took a moment to ponder this.
I was against War in Iraq and i despise Tony Blair and GW Bush.

But, at the very least Saddam was a terrible dictator in the mould of Putin.
So although I totally agree with what you say and don't think we should of made a War out of it based on some lies and letting Saudi Arabia off the hook.
But the fact is Saddam was a bad man, a very bad man.

As much as i dislike GW Bush and Tony Blair, Putin or Saddam they are not.
 
Biggles
True ... but then I look at the US where apparently more than 30% of the population sincerely believe that the last election was "stolen", that Covid was a Democratic hoax to undermine Trump, that Democrats are America-hating commies etc. etc. It no longer seems necessary to have a state-run propaganda system to poison people's minds. :indiff:
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Well, technically that was state-run. By Russia.
 
Joey D
Bold of them to threaten Sweden. They're just going to go full Viking and drive a fleet of old Volvos blaring death metal while Saabs bomb the hell out of them from overhead. Finland will just cut off their supply of vodka to Russia and then go sit in a sauna.

But ya, I don't think Putin learned anything from presumably having a history class. If you spread your forces too thin, you're going to get steamrolled. I don't know about Finland, but Sweden has better military hardware than Ukraine along with much tougher terrain even though their force is likely smaller in number. They can also cut off the Baltic Sea (along with Finland) and cripple St. Petersburg and Kaliningrad. I know Sweden is neutral when it comes to military matters though so it doesn't really have allies to lean on, but I'd have to imagine if Putin starts waving his little willy around in Europe too much that's going to change.
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Finland has a smattering of Soviet Union hardware, a bunch of stuff from NATO countries, and a bunch of homegrown stuff. Their fighter planes are F/A-18C/D. They are scheduled to buy some F-35s also. They would not be a fun country to invade.

Famine
Out of all the places in the known universe, it's actually Reddit that has solved this:
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I see no way this could go wrong.

Joey D
Xinnie the Pooh
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You are now Enemy #1 in China.
 
Other than Putin and his Oligarchs who would obviously lose a ton of influence (and money), wouldn't Russia itself benefit substantially from joining NATO? I get that they wouldn't be able to play the whole black market angle as easily, but ordinary Russians don't benefit from that I'd bet.
 
Biggles
OK ... but in the midst of all this, it's useful to bear in mind that the US under George Bush attacked Iraq on the flimsiest of pretexts leading to a devastating loss of life & the disruption of the entire region. Not only that, but Bush had the active support of the UK led by an (ostensibly) "social democratic" government. Even though there was a lot of resistance to the Iraq war, it didn't stop it from happening.
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Get back to me with this comparison when Saddam Hussein is running Ukraine.
 


Apparently Germany also finally grew something.

Edit.

NATO is preparing to move a significant force to Eastern Europe. According to SG Stoltenberg.
 
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Gas12
I agree with you and took a moment to ponder this.
I was against War in Iraq and i despise Tony Blair and GW Bush.

But, at the very least Saddam was a terrible dictator in the mould of Putin.
So although I totally agree with what you say and don't think we should of made a War out of it based on some lies and letting Saudi Arabia off the hook.
But the fact is Saddam was a bad man, a very bad man.

As much as i dislike GW Bush and Tony Blair, Putin or Saddam they are not.
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I don't really hold with the "bad man" theory of history. Saddam was bad ... but he was also bad when he was attacking in Iran & was supported by the US. Hitler was bad ... but he came to power because enough Germans supported him .. and they supported him partly because of the punitive measures taken against German following the Great War. These are complex situations.

I don't doubt that Russia has legitimate historical beefs against the West ... it may even have legitimate beefs against Ukraine. But Putin has gone way too far with this. The Russian people need to realize that Putin is not the saviour of Russia, he's a Pied Piper leading them to isolation & ruin.
 
A statement from Mazepin -

“ To my fans and followers - it's a difficult time and I am not in control over a lot of what is being said and done. I'm choosing to focus on what I CAN control by working hard and doing my best for my @HaasF1Team . My deepest thanks for your understanding and support.”

Firstly, i can't believe he has fans.
Secondly, cry me a river, your only in F1 because of your Dad, so sod off from F1 because of your Dad, who just yesterday was shaking hands with Putin.....

The fact that Marzipan caused more damage last season around the globe than Putin could ever dream of is an aside.
 
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UCI World Tour Team (Professionaly cycling) Gazprom-RusVelo won a race today in the UAE. There is discussion of banning the team now, particularly because Gazprom is a state entity. Does it matter? Not practically, but it does symbolically and Russia wouldn't be sponsoring a cycling team if it didn't matter to them at least a little bit.
 
Eunos_Cosmo
UCI World Tour Team (Professionaly cycling) Gazprom-RusVelo won a race today in the UAE. There is discussion of banning the team now, particularly because Gazprom is a state entity. Does it matter? Not practically, but it does symbolically and Russia wouldn't be sponsoring a cycling team if it didn't matter to them at least a little bit.
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One of the reasons why i never understand why some people say stuff like
"Leave politics out of sport"
When I'm critical of Qatar events etc....

Its intertwined and sport is used and abuse for pollical willy waving.

Just look at how many Russian athlete's are drugged up to the eyeballs to make Russia seem superhuman.
Bunch of cheating scum.
 
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Danoff
Get back to me with this comparison when Saddam Hussein is running Ukraine.
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All is not well in Ukraine. Ukraine has barely a better standing when it comes to corruption than does Russia.

But that's besides the point. You don't have the right to wilfully invade other countries just because you have the military capability to do it. I certainly hope that hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian lives are not lost as a result of the Russian invasion as they were as a consequence of the American-led invasion of Iraq.
 
So reading up on the Finnish military, it seems like a bad idea to screw with them. The country has 5.5 million people and of those 900,000 are in the reserves. They grow up with military traditions there and it seems like there's a sense of manliness instilled in the culture where you're expected to be tough. The Utin Jääkärirykmentti gets the nickname "The Sparta of the North" from various military bloggers and historians too. It seems like a really, really bad idea to even threaten them because it sounds like they'd just mow you down then go have a sit in the sauna.

They certainly did a number to the Soviets during the Winter War and the Continuation War despite being outmanned and outgunned too.
 
Joey D
So reading up on the Finnish military, it seems like a bad idea to screw with them. The country has 5.5 million people and of those 900,000 are in the reserves. They grow up with military traditions there and it seems like there's a sense of manliness instilled in the culture where you're expected to be tough. The Utin Jääkärirykmentti gets the nickname "The Sparta of the North" from various military bloggers and historians too. It seems like a really, really bad idea to even threaten them because it sounds like they'd just mow you down then go have a sit in the sauna.

They certainly did a number to the Soviets during the Winter War and the Continuation War despite being outmanned and outgunned too.
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Considering how the Molotov cocktail was named to mock and humiliate the Soviets, I can't see this being an intelligent decision for Putin.
 

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