Russian Invasion of Ukraine

  • Thread starter Rage Racer
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See the irony...

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Dmitri Outkine, the founder and man at the head of Wagner. With his nazis tattoos...
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Wagners are Russia's shadow army. There is video of wagner mercs executing a Syrian guy. It was not pretty they tortured him with sledgehammers and other stuff. It was pretty awful.

In libya lots of wagners got killed under the hands of Libyans many Libyans also spared none of them.

The Mass grave found in Tarhuna in Libya the Wagner mercs along with the Salafi Kani militias have have been implicated in the execution of civilians in the city of Tarhuna.
 
I get the sense that these "peace talks" are merely an opportunity for Russia to call a timeout, try to fix their logistical issues, and resupply. Putin has shown no interest in peace and I don't see why that would have changed now.

Whatever the outcome of Ukraine, one thing that has emerged is that the mirage of Russian military sophistication has been pretty broken.

Another thing occurred to me with all the talk about blocking the sale of Russian vodka. Russia basically doesn't make anything for export. It's just resource extraction at this point. You can't even boycott Russia because you can't buy anything Russian in the first place. I guess this should be obvious considering the size of the Russian economy...but it's actually quite sad. The Putin regime has reduced Russia to a middle east style pariah state with a 1-dimensional economy and 1-dimensional foreign policy.
 
The best case scenario would seem to be for the Russian people to rise up & kick out Putin ... but on the other hand, would that lead to a failed state, like what happened in Iraq? And who would step into the vacuum? It could lead to yet another authoritarian leader, or perhaps complete anarchy with competing factions, which in a state bristling with nuclear weapons could be a very dangerous thing.
 
I get the sense that these "peace talks" are merely an opportunity for Russia to call a timeout, try to fix their logistical issues, and resupply. Putin has shown no interest in peace and I don't see why that would have changed now.
That's what has been reported early this morning; the fighting around Kyiv has been reduced a bit leaving the city quiet for the most part. Guess was the Russians are doing just as you said.
 
The best case scenario would seem to be for the Russian people to rise up & kick out Putin ... but on the other hand, would that lead to a failed state, like what happened in Iraq? And who would step into the vacuum? It could lead to yet another authoritarian leader, or perhaps complete anarchy with competing factions, which in a state bristling with nuclear weapons could be a very dangerous thing.
The Oligarchs have the most power, aside from Putin. I'd guess that they would battle for supremacy in some fashion while the Russian population tries to steer the ship the other direction. Not sure how that would play out.

This is my 5,000 mile view of the situation. I'm sure @inCloud could offer a much better picture.
 
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The Putin regime has reduced Russia
It was always in poor state economically. Russian empire was slave driven ****hole, USSR was slave driven dictatorship(gulag+kolkhoz) and only decent thing modern Russia get from USSR is resources extraction facilities. On the other hand, things like Tinkoff, Yandex, VK and gosuslugi are top tier in their respective industries.

With better investment climate we could be number #1 IT country in Europe.

The Oligarchs have the most power,
Current top tier oligarchs have power and money only because they were friends of Putin in 90s. Without Putin most powerful of them will fall next second. Those who build their empires in 90s still will be powerful, but not so much.

There isnt anything wrong with oligarchs if there are enough of them and they rise their capitals by doing business.
 
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I honestly want to see Russia defeated in Ukraine by the Ukrainians alongside the Russian deposing Putin within Russia. Russia needs to see Ukraine stand up for itself and Ukraine needs to see that Russia didn't want this. The last thing we want is for this to turn into a blood feud for decades.

I also want to see Ukraine, and a new Russia prosper. We need less divisions in the world.
 
Another thing occurred to me with all the talk about blocking the sale of Russian vodka. Russia basically doesn't make anything for export. It's just resource extraction at this point. You can't even boycott Russia because you can't buy anything Russian in the first place. I guess this should be obvious considering the size of the Russian economy...but it's actually quite sad. The Putin regime has reduced Russia to a middle east style pariah state with a 1-dimensional economy and 1-dimensional foreign policy.

I think that depends on where you live. In Georgia for example there are plenty of Russian produced goods for sale.
 
Current top tier oligarchs have power and money only because they were friends of Putin in 90s. Without Putin most powerful of them will fall next second. Those who build their empires in 90s still will be powerful, but not so much.

There isnt anything wrong with oligarchs if there are enough of them and they rise their capitals by doing business.
Sounds like my previous belief that the oligarchs are the best way to end this (by convincing Putin to stop) comes with a twist; he remains in power to ensure their banks accounts stay fat.
 
Sounds like my previous belief that the oligarchs are the best way to end this (by convincing Putin to stop) comes with a twist; he remains in power to ensure their banks accounts stay fat.
That's how it will be anyway. Some oligarchs will stay even if Navalniy will come to power.
 
It was always in poor state economically. Russian empire was slave driven ****hole, USSR was slave driven dictatorship(gulag+kolkhoz) and only decent thing modern Russia get from USSR is resources extraction facilities. On the other hand, things like Tinkoff, Yandex, VK and gosuslugi are top tier in their respective industries.

With better investment climate we could be number #1 IT country in Europe.


Current top tier oligarchs have power and money only because they were friends of Putin in 90s. Without Putin most powerful of them will fall next second. Those who build their empires in 90s still will be powerful, but not so much.

There isnt anything wrong with oligarchs if there are enough of them and they rise their capitals by doing business.
It's a sad history & a sad current reality. A lot of wasted education & brain power in Russia because of deeply entrenched corruption.
 
The following is an opinion piece by Thomas Friedman published by the New York Times:

"When a major conflict like Ukraine breaks out, journalists always ask themselves: “Where should I station myself?” Kyiv? Moscow? Munich? Washington? In this case, my answer is none of these. The only place to be for understanding this war is inside Russian President Vladimir Putin’s head. Putin is the most powerful, unchecked Russian leader since Stalin, and the timing of this war is a product of his ambitions, strategies and grievances.

But, with all of that said, America is not entirely innocent of fueling his fires.

How so? Putin views Ukraine’s ambition to leave his sphere of influence as both a strategic loss and a personal and national humiliation. In his speech on Monday, Putin literally said Ukraine has no claim to independence, but is instead an integral part of Russia — its people are “connected with us by blood, family ties.” Which is why Putin’s onslaught against Ukraine’s freely elected government feels like the geopolitical equivalent of an honor killing.

Putin is basically saying to Ukrainians (more of whom want to join the European Union than NATO): “You fell in love with the wrong guy. You will not run off with either NATO or the E.U. And if I have to club your government to death and drag you back home, I will.”

This is ugly, visceral stuff. Nevertheless, there is a back story here that is relevant. Putin’s attachment to Ukraine is not just mystical nationalism.

In my view, there are two huge logs fueling this fire. The first log was the ill-considered decision by the U.S. in the 1990s to expand NATO after — indeed, despite — the collapse of the Soviet Union.

And the second and far bigger log is how Putin cynically exploited NATO’s expansion closer to Russia’s borders to rally Russians to his side to cover for his huge failure of leadership. Putin has utterly failed to build Russia into an economic model that would actually attract its neighbors, not repel them, and inspire its most talented people to want to stay, not get in line for visas to the West.

We need to look at both of these logs. Most Americans paid scant attention to the expansion of NATO in the late 1990s and early 2000s to countries in Eastern and Central Europe like Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, all of which had been part of the former Soviet Union or its sphere of influence. It was no mystery why these nations would want to be part of an alliance that obligated the U.S. to come to their defense in the event of an attack by Russia, the rump successor to the Soviet Union.

The mystery was why the U.S. — which throughout the Cold War dreamed that Russia might one day have a democratic revolution and a leader who, however haltingly, would try to make Russia into a democracy and join the West — would choose to quickly push NATO into Russia’s face when it was weak.

A very small group of officials and policy wonks at that time, myself included, asked that same question, but we were drowned out.

The most important, and sole, voice at the top of the Clinton administration asking that question was none other than the defense secretary, Bill Perry. Recalling that moment years later, Perry in 2016 told a conference of The Guardian newspaper:

“In the last few years, most of the blame can be pointed at the actions that Putin has taken. But in the early years I have to say that the United States deserves much of the blame. Our first action that really set us off in a bad direction was when NATO started to expand, bringing in Eastern European nations, some of them bordering Russia.

“At that time, we were working closely with Russia and they were beginning to get used to the idea that NATO could be a friend rather than an enemy … but they were very uncomfortable about having NATO right up on their border and they made a strong appeal for us not to go ahead with that.”

On May 2, 1998, immediately after the Senate ratified NATO expansion, I called George Kennan, the architect of America’s successful containment of the Soviet Union. Having joined the State Department in 1926 and served as U.S. ambassador to Moscow in 1952, Kennan was arguably America’s greatest expert on Russia. Though 94 at the time and frail of voice, he was sharp of mind when I asked for his opinion of NATO expansion.

I am going to share Kennan’s whole answer:

“I think it is the beginning of a new cold war. I think the Russians will gradually react quite adversely and it will affect their policies. I think it is a tragic mistake. There was no reason for this whatsoever. No one was threatening anybody else. This expansion would make the founding fathers of this country turn over in their graves.

“We have signed up to protect a whole series of countries, even though we have neither the resources nor the intention to do so in any serious way. [NATO expansion] was simply a lighthearted action by a Senate that has no real interest in foreign affairs. What bothers me is how superficial and ill informed the whole Senate debate was. I was particularly bothered by the references to Russia as a country dying to attack Western Europe.

“Don’t people understand? Our differences in the Cold War were with the Soviet Communist regime. And now we are turning our backs on the very people who mounted the greatest bloodless revolution in history to remove that Soviet regime. And Russia’s democracy is as far advanced, if not farther, as any of these countries we’ve just signed up to defend from Russia. Of course there is going to be a bad reaction from Russia, and then [the NATO expanders] will say that we always told you that is how the Russians are — but this is just wrong.”

It’s EXACTLY what has happened.

To be sure, post-Cold War Russia evolving into a liberal system — the way post-World War II Germany and Japan did — was hardly a sure thing. Indeed, given Russia’s scant experience with democracy, it was a long shot. But some of us then thought it was a long shot worth trying, because even a less-than-democratic Russia — if it had been included rather than excluded from a new European security order — might have had much less interest or incentive in menacing its neighbors.

Of course, none of this justifies Putin’s dismemberment of Ukraine. During Putin’s first two terms as president — from 2000 to 2008 — he occasionally grumbled about NATO expansion but did little more. Oil prices were high then, as was Putin’s domestic popularity, because he was presiding over the soaring growth of Russian personal incomes after a decade of painful restructuring and impoverishment following the collapse of communism.

But across the last decade, as Russia’s economy stagnated, Putin either had to go for deeper economic reforms, which might have weakened his top-down control, or double down on his corrupt crony capitalist kleptocracy. He chose the latter, explained Leon Aron, a Russia expert at the American Enterprise Institute and the author of “Yeltsin: A Revolutionary Life,” who is now writing a book about the future of Putin’s Russia. And to both cover and distract from that choice, Putin shifted the basis of his popularity from “being the distributor of Russia’s newfound wealth and an economic reformer to the defender of the motherland,” Aron said.

And right when Putin opted for domestic political reasons to become a nationalist avenger and a permanent “wartime president,” as Aron put it, what was waiting there for him to grasp onto was the most emotive threat to rally the Russian people behind him: “The low-hanging fruit of NATO expansion.”

And he has dined out on it ever since, even though he knows that NATO has no plans to expand to include Ukraine.

Countries and leaders usually react to humiliation in one of two ways — aggression or introspection. After China experienced what it called a “century of humiliation” from the West, it responded under Deng Xiaoping by essentially saying: “We’ll show you. We’ll beat you at your own game.”

When Putin felt humiliated by the West after the collapse of the Soviet Union and the expansion of NATO, he responded: “I’ll show you. I’ll beat up Ukraine.”

Yes, it’s all more complicated than that, but my point is this: This is Putin’s war. He’s a bad leader for Russia and its neighbors. But America and NATO are not just innocent bystanders in his evolution."
 
It's a sad history & a sad current reality. A lot of wasted education & brain power in Russia because of deeply entrenched corruption.
In current globalised world I dont think there's any problems with wasted intelligence. Especially with younger generations.

There is no reason to sit here - Europe and USA always need scientists and buisnesmans.
 
Turkey has decided to take action on Black Sea navigation.


Additionally, I have heard rumors that a convoy carrying Israeli civilians in Ukraine was hit by Russian fire. Did not see anything official.
 
That's how it will be anyway. Some oligarchs will stay even if Navalniy will come to power.
Is it possible for the oligarchs to become sort of a "checks and balances" system to whoever is in power? I mean, from the videos I've seen of Putin meeting with them, it appears that way but that he's really just informing them of his own decisions. Or do they already have such power, but they're all too afraid of him?
 
Turkey has decided to take action on Black Sea navigation.


Additionally, I have heard rumors that a convoy carrying Israeli civilians in Ukraine was hit by Russian fire. Did not see anything official.

"Shell to sell stakes..."

Say that ten times fast.
 
Is it possible for the oligarchs to become sort of a "checks and balances" system to whoever is in power? I mean, from the videos I've seen of Putin meeting with them, it appears that way but that he's really just informing them of his own decisions. Or do they already have such power, but they're all too afraid of him?
First thing Putin did was taming oligarchs. Some were send in exile (Berezka), some were put in prison (Hodor). Others were tamed(Abramovich, Derepazka) - they pay tribute into Putins pockets and doesn't try to gain any political power. Also Putin created his own pocket-oligarchs - Sechin, Miller, Timchenko. Those fully depending on Putin power. Those pocket-oligarchs have most power and owns most of the country.
 
First thing Putin did was taming oligarchs. Some were send in exile (Berezka), some were put in prison (Hodor). Others were tamed(Abramovich, Derepazka) - they pay tribute into Putins pockets and doesn't try to gain any political power. Also Putin created his own pocket-oligarchs - Sechin, Miller, Timchenko. Those fully depending on Putin power. Those pocket-oligarchs have most power and owns most of the country.
Interesting. Never thought it occurred to me til' now, but your explanation reminds me of when I read, "There's not a Russian mafia. They are the mafia".
 
The Oligarchs have the most power, aside from Putin. I'd guess that they would battle for supremacy in some fashion while the Russian population tries to steer the ship the other direction. Not sure how that would play out.

This is my 5,000 mile view of the situation. I'm sure @inCloud could offer a much better picture.
I think it needs to be made clear to the oligarchs that they're all old and on their way out anyway so their best decision would be to cash out now and go live the rest of their rich lives on a boat before they either go broke or don't live to see themselves go broke. Like you say, they're the ones with the power and money so there is no room for a more legitimate government in Russia until they're out of the picture. But whoever shall convince them that continuing isn't worth the trouble? 🤔

Another thing occurred to me with all the talk about blocking the sale of Russian vodka. Russia basically doesn't make anything for export. It's just resource extraction at this point. You can't even boycott Russia because you can't buy anything Russian in the first place. I guess this should be obvious considering the size of the Russian economy...but it's actually quite sad. The Putin regime has reduced Russia to a middle east style pariah state with a 1-dimensional economy and 1-dimensional foreign policy.
Compare what happened to Russia once they gave up communism to what happened in China once they gave up communism. They've got all the natural resources and dirty industry in the world yet somehow not much to show for it. Every time I browse Russia in Google Maps I see nothing but mines, mills, refineries, processing plants, ports, etc. Endless amounts of heavy industry in every single city. It's like the entire country is the American Rust Belt lol. You can't tell me there isn't money and wealth to be made. It's not like their production costs are burdened by high salaries and expensive safety regulations.
 
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That's probably great for morale. Let's see how long it takes before an entire army collectively drops their weapons or points them in the other direction, something I would love to see. Putin in his Black Sea mansion being hunted down by angry Russians.
 
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