Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[breeminator]

We cannot achieve peace by rewarding an aggressor for their initiation of violence.

Rewarding the initiator of violence encourages future initiation of violence.

We need to make the consequences of initiating violence so intolerable that nobody wants to initiate violence.

This seems to be understood when dealing with "normal" crimes such as murder, and forgotten (by some people) when dealing with war.

Roosevelt understood it in 1941:

"[17] No realistic American can expect from a dictator’s peace international generosity, or return of true independence, or world disarmament, or freedom of expression, or freedom of religion–or even good business.

[18] Such a peace would bring no security for us or for our neighbors. “Those, who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”"

FDR, "The Four Freedoms," Speech Text - Voices of Democracy

FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT, 1941 STATE OF THE UNION ADDRESS “THE FOUR FREEDOMS” (6 JANUARY 1941) [1] Mr. President, Mr. Speaker, Members of the Seventy-seventh Congress: [2] I address you, the Members of the members of this new Congress, at a moment unprecedented in the history of the Union. I use...

voicesofdemocracy.umd.edu

The kind of deal that is being talked about for Ukraine is the temporary safety Roosevelt warned of.

 

[dcmo3]

We cannot achieve peace by rewarding an aggressor for their initiation of violence.

Rewarding the initiator of violence encourages future initiation of violence.

We need to make the consequences of initiating violence so intolerable that nobody wants to initiate violence.

This seems to be understood when dealing with "normal" crimes such as murder, and forgotten (by some people) when dealing with war.

Roosevelt understood it in 1941:

"[17] No realistic American can expect from a dictator’s peace international generosity, or return of true independence, or world disarmament, or freedom of expression, or freedom of religion–or even good business.

[18] Such a peace would bring no security for us or for our neighbors. “Those, who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”"

FDR, "The Four Freedoms," Speech Text - Voices of Democracy

FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT, 1941 STATE OF THE UNION ADDRESS “THE FOUR FREEDOMS” (6 JANUARY 1941) [1] Mr. President, Mr. Speaker, Members of the Seventy-seventh Congress: [2] I address you, the Members of the members of this new Congress, at a moment unprecedented in the history of the Union. I use...

voicesofdemocracy.umd.edu

The kind of deal that is being talked about for Ukraine is the temporary safety Roosevelt warned of.

The war is over, and Ukraine lost. Continuing it any further only leads to the total destruction of Ukraine. Nothing is going to regain lost territory that Russia doesn't want to give up.

This isn't 1941, things have changed. Countries back then didn't have the ability to destroy the entire world (note on 18 - these are Benjamin Franklin's words, FDR merely plagiarized them).

This isn't our war, and the U.S. has already gotten way too involved. For the U.S. to get directly involved in the war, means ultimately it goes nuclear (whether us or them with the initial strike). If England and France want this war, they can have it, but they'll be on their own.

 

[UKMikey]

Spoken like a true surrender monkey.

 

[Liquid]

Rewarding the initiator of violence encourages future initiation of violence.

This is what Trump and Putin want though.

This isn't our war

As a signatory to the Budapest Memorandum, it is. Unhappy with the Budapest Memorandum? The United States has long declared itself the greatest democracy in the world, the leaders of the free world and the World Police, self-aggranding titles it loved to rub in everyone else's faces. Now's the time to actually prove it.

Or is the United States' word worth nothing? With the current state of US politics, I think everybody already knows the answer.

 

[breeminator]

The war is over, and Ukraine lost. Continuing it any further only leads to the total destruction of Ukraine. Nothing is going to regain lost territory that Russia doesn't want to give up.

Russia was in a terrible position until Trump withdrew US support. NATO has long had a policy of nations specialising, so full capability is only possible when member nations work together. With hindsight, the rest of NATO should never have allowed themselves to be so reliant on US support, but the withdrawal of US support currently switches off a lot of NATO capability. While Ukraine is not a full NATO member, it's also not just some random country, it has a long history of NATO partnership:

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_37750.htm

Withdrawal of US support is, frankly, shocking, and is going to have a long term negative impact on the US arms industry as why would any other nation purchase military equipment from the US from now on? Countries are already realising their F-35s can effectively be switched off whenever the US wants and are concerned about the issue.

Russia cannot sustain their military effort. All the West had to do was continue their support until Russia's position becomes so bad that withdrawal is the best option. Russia's GDP is tiny, the total combined GDP of NATO member countries is approx 26x Russia's GDP.

(And, as mentioned above, there is of course the US commitment under the Budapest Memorandum)

 

[McLaren]

Yet another member with bad conservative takes who comes and goes, has come to give his bad conservative take before going back to playing GT7.

 

[dcmo3]

This is what Trump and Putin want though.

As a signatory to the Budapest Memorandum, it is. Unhappy with the Budapest Memorandum? The United States has long declared itself the greatest democracy in the world, the leaders of the free world and the World Police, self-aggranding titles it loved to rub in everyone else's faces. Now's the time to actually prove it.

Or is the United States' word worth nothing? With the current state of US politics, I think everybody already knows the answer.

Our founding fathers warned us to stay out of other countries business, wise advice that should have been followed. Our government is set up to rule for us, not over us. Korea and Vietnam should have been well left alone, and the slaughter over the Iraqi's never should have happened.

If I was Trump I'd bring all our troops home and redeploy around key installations, cut our military budget in half (800 or 900 billion is flat out ridiculous), put at least 50 billion a year into missle defense, and modernize and increase our nuclear force. No one is going to attack us, with the knowledge of what would happen.

Yet another member with bad conservative takes who comes and goes, has come to give his bad conservative take before going back to playing GT7.

None the less, Ukraine is done.

Spoken like a true surrender monkey.

I served. More than willing to die for my country in my own land, you go die for theirs.

 

[Boston77]

I served.
I served to prevent the surge of communist tanks, infantry and ideology from pouring over the eastern wall.
What your supporting goes against everything we have stood for for over 80 years.
That you are so willing to throw all our allies and security away over 6 weeks of Trumpism tells me alot about you.
Slava Ukraine MFer

 

[UKMikey]

It's only somebody else's war until somebody flies in and bombs the **** out of your harbour.

 

[McLaren]

No one is going to attack us, with the knowledge of what would happen.

Our US defense budget was 3.11% of our GDP in 2000 before we were attacked & spent 20 years in a war in the Middle East. Today, it's 3.4%.

Thinking boosting money into missile defense over a nation of our size will not deter terrorism. Increasing nuclear force is also just silly. 3,700+ is already the 2nd most in the world assuming Russia even properly maintains their stock pile; we have more than enough to "scare" anyone, yet the fact we are severing important ally relationships might be seen as more of an incentive than not.

I think you're more than "willing to die" for a cult leader than country at this point, but whatever.

 

[Danoff]

I served. More than willing to die for my country in my own land, you go die for theirs.

Not a fan of WWII vets I take it.

Nobody's wanting you to deploy to Ukraine. Reel it in.

 

[Sprite]

Our government is set up to rule for us, not over us.

Errr….. not what Trump wants though is it?

 

[TheCracker]

Our founding fathers warned us to stay out of other countries business, wise advice that should have been followed. Our government is set up to rule for us, not over us. Korea and Vietnam should have been well left alone, and the slaughter over the Iraqi's never should have happened.

If I was Trump I'd bring all our troops home and redeploy around key installations, cut our military budget in half (800 or 900 billion is flat out ridiculous), put at least 50 billion a year into missle defense, and modernize and increase our nuclear force. No one is going to attack us, with the knowledge of what would happen.

Overseas military deployment isn't about defending your country, its about spreading influence around the globe. Protecting economic interests. If the US was to keep insular, stay just defending its own borders it would have no economic influence globally. China would end up controlling the world's economy and everyone else would suffer, the US included.

 

[Famine]

That's the second time in a week I've seen the "go there and die if you think freedom is so important" attitude.

It's... so weird to think that you shouldn't be allowed to support freedom if you're not of service age and fitness and haven't signed up for a foreign military to defend it from another and died, never mind express a desire for someone you're conversing with to actually die.

 

[UKMikey]

That's the second time in a week I've seen the "go there and die if you think freedom is so important" attitude.

Speaking as the recipient of both of those responses, I'm beginning to wonder of there's something about my account that triggers MAGA "conservatives". Maybe it's the "UK" in my username?

 

[Tornado]

If the US is going to completely retreat from the world stage militarily they better cut a hell of a lot more than half of the budget.

 

[Scaff]

Our founding fathers warned us to stay out of other countries business, wise advice that should have been followed.

It's interesting to note that it doesn't answer the point made, it simply avoids it.

Our government is set up to rule for us, not over us.

You've got the wrong President for that.

Korea and Vietnam should have been well left alone, and the slaughter over the Iraqi's never should have happened.

It's a bit late to play revisionist, the US set itself up as the global cop,

If I was Trump I'd bring all our troops home and redeploy around key installations, cut our military budget in half (800 or 900 billion is flat out ridiculous), put at least 50 billion a year into missle defense, and modernize and increase our nuclear force. No one is going to attack us, with the knowledge of what would happen.

Ah, the isolationist position is back on the cards again, which ignores both Trump's expansionist desires and the lessons from history on how well that worked out before.

BTW - US missile defence is reliant on NATO, without that, your capability is for ****. Oh, and the US has been attacked without it using nukes as retaliation in the past. If you don't think that is repeatable, I've bad news for you.

None the less, Ukraine is done.

Putin is pleased with your words...

 

[Famine]

BTW - US missile defence is reliant on NATO

I would very much be happy to not have a target 30 miles from my door...

 

[Joey D]

I served. More than willing to die for my country in my own land, you go die for theirs.

No Americans are being sent to die in Ukraine though and they likely won't be sent there either.

Look, I assume you lived during the Cold War. With Ukraine, we will never fight the Russians cheaper and with less American bloodshed. Yes, the cost of lives with the Ukrainians is high and we should remember that even if Americans aren't dying. Still, from a purely geopolitical and military standpoint on the American side, it's incredibly cheap to support Ukraine to deal a major blow to an enemy power.

America should continue to support the enemies of Russia and China as much as we can with money, arms, and intelligence. War is inevitable with both nations, so we might as well weaken them where we can. In the end, it's a net benefit for the US because our enemies are dealt a deadly blow while we gain influence over the countries we've helped. If America is going to be a global super power, I'd rather have other countries follow us over Russia or China.

 

[Scaff]

I would very much be happy to not have a target 30 miles from my door...

View attachment 1435245

Only one target?

Lucky indeed, I've Porton Down, CCHQ, and RAF Lyneham.

At least if it ever gets nuclear, it's all going to be very quick for me.

 

[PaMu1337]

Only one target?

Lucky indeed, I've Porton Down, CCHQ, and RAF Lyneham.

At least if it ever gets nuclear, it's all going to be very quick for me.

One of the main nuclear targets of the USSR during the cold war is literally on top of my house (I live right in the middle between a major military logistics center and a former shared US/Dutch airforce base, and I wouldn't trust Russia to have updated its maps to note that the airforce base has closed down)

 

[Famine]

Only one target?

Lucky indeed, I've Porton Down, CCHQ, and RAF Lyneham.

At least if it ever gets nuclear, it's all going to be very quick for me.

Also relatively pleased that a standard warhead won't light us up and the fallout would be away from us.

 

[Korvregn]

I would very much be happy to not have a target 30 miles from my door...

View attachment 1435245

All I see is some sheep, fence and a enormous loudspeaker. You should be fine

 

[Famine]

All I see is some sheep, fence and a enormous loudspeaker. You should be fine

Marty McFly's about to plug into it...

 

[Scaff]

One of the main nuclear targets of the USSR during the cold war is literally on top of my house (I live right in the middle between a major military logistics center and a former shared US/Dutch airforce base, and I wouldn't trust Russia to have updated its maps to note that the airforce base has closed down)

You reminded me that I missed one, RAF Fairford, the USAF's only European base that supports heavy bombers.

Interesting side note, Fairford was also an 'abort' landing location for NASA's Space Shuttle, as it had both NASA trained fire crews and a long enough runway.

 

[Eliminatorek]

To me this is quite straight forward Amercian to American explanation how tainted Trump's imaginary romance with Putin is.

 

[Blitz24]

Russia will just milk Trump for all they can. He thinks Russia is strong because it has land.

 

[Touring Mars]

Ukraine says it is ready to accept 30-day ceasefire, as US says 'ball now in Russia's court'

The US says it is immediately restoring intelligence sharing and "security assistance" to Ukraine, after talks in Saudi Arabia.

www.bbc.co.uk

Ukraine has agreed to a 30-day ceasefire during talks with the US today. Marco Rubio has said that "the ball is now in Russia's court".

Good. Now let's see what happens as Putin ignores Trump and his minions.

I genuinely hope that he doesn't, and that this could be the beginning of the end of the conflict - but I'm not going to hold my breath. Trump is going to have a very serious problem if and when the penny drops that Russia is not interested in peace with Ukraine.