SCC Old Timer Event - 365 GTB/4 - Dec 6th, 2009 - *Event Complete - Results Posted*

[bullie77]

As I stated yesterday online, with frank and others present, although I rather choose to not use the braking zones (it confuses me), I see no problem on having that option available for the classic events. I don't think it'll make anyone faster, but it would help on the consistency of the racing for the people who optate for using it.

 

[chilledant]

As I stated yesterday online, with frank and others present, although I rather choose to not use the braking zones (it confuses me), I see no problem on having that option available for the classic events. I don't think it'll make anyone faster, but it would help on the consistency of the racing for the people who optate for using it.

hi bullie i think braking zone do give a driver 2 to 3 tenths of a second because it a great advantage to have a colour to say when to start braking. the human mind will have more difficulty identifying a shadow than a colour o the track. for me i prefer all my races with it off due to the fact that most cars i speak under correction have similar braking point on track some ten meters early some late. the ccx i know has the biggest differents you must realy hit the zone write.. i have seen how much it can help with a friend called cepitas he use braking and when i race him with it on he can be 3 tenths faster per lap. its hard to call.

 

[drivatar]

Alternatively I would suggest allowing ABS. It's really hard to apply the right braking pressure with my pad setup.

But the organizer of the event should choose what he thinks is right.

 

[chilledant]

also bulli and frawe. does the line not self ajust so to say ?? caculating the speed one is approaching the croner?? i think its like a moving part on track. cause i had it on one day when i was trying different things in the game. i would slow down completly and the braking zone would move from 100 meters to 50 meters go in game and try you prov my theory. go mugelo turn approach 1 at speed first lap and take a mark then the next lap go down the straight at half the speed our just approaching turn 1 just plain slow you will see the red braking marker wouldn't even light up on track. i think its just more fun and challenging with it off. thanx chilliiiii

 

[jjaisli]

Hi Guys,

I appreciate the input and I was mulling it over this afternoon after I read your posts. I can fully understand your points and your reasoning for wanting to use the braking zones. But ultimately, I have to reject the idea of the racing line for the actual events. One person may think the racing line is a safety feature. Another may think having ABS is a good idea to prevent lock up and smacking into other cars. Another may think the stability control is worth while to prevent these old and unwieldy cars from getting 'out of shape'. And they're all valid arguments. But the reason I turn ALL assists off in the lobby is simply to create a level playing field where the same rules apply to everybody. I'm not worried about you guys gaining a few tenths. But in principle, having the option of the racing line, in effect creates an in-balance that I want to avoid.

I don't want to 'lecture' anybody. But I look at it this way. The racing line is a great tool to find your way around a new track when you don't know where to drive. But ultimately, it becomes a crutch. And the more you use it, the more you depend on it. And in reality, NOT using the racing line makes you a more effective driver. Some of the braking points it gives you are arbitrary. And in many cases if you're not already on the brakes when the racing line 'fades in' than you're already braking too late. And as you've probably already noticed, it's not very effective when drafting another car comes into play and you're forced to brake sooner than you normally would. What's more, if the field is bunched together into a tight corner and you rely on the racing line, it's not going to help and you're going to brake too late anyway.

I have to admit, if one just jumps around in on-line lobbies, it's tough to suddenly throw yourself into, oh, say the 575 GTC at Misano and immediately know your braking points, turn in points, etc. And in a situation such as that, having the option to use the braking zone/racing line is useful. It's for this reason, after being convinced by another participant, that I now try and announce the tracks a week early. And in this way it gives everybody fair time to practice, find a good setup and, most importantly, learn the braking points.

In real life, in real races, there is no racing line to fall back on. And missing your braking point can easily happen, especially in the heat of the moment and when passing another car. But that's part of racing. And I want to try and convey that in these events. Having a magic line appear on the track would be something very...I don't know the right word...artificial. Just look at my lap (3?) of Nuburgring (video page 8). I left my braking too late and totally botched it. (Well it's not the only thing I botched in that race). But it happens. And I lost touch with Turnupdaheat as a result of this error. My race might have ended up very differently had I not made this mistake. But I did and that's that.

If you want to use it for practice, by all means. But I can almost guarantee you'll learn your braking points quicker if you don't.

 

[jjaisli]

Alternatively I would suggest allowing ABS. It's really hard to apply the right braking pressure with my pad setup.

👍 Thanks for helping illustrate this point. I actually made my post before reading your comments.

 

[bullie77]

Hi Guys,

I appreciate the input and I was mulling it over this afternoon after I read your posts. I can fully understand your points and your reasoning for wanting to use the braking zones. But ultimately, I have to reject the idea of the racing line for the actual events. One person may think the racing line is a safety feature. Another may think having ABS is a good idea to prevent lock up and smacking into other cars. Another may think the stability control is worth while to prevent these old and unwieldy cars from getting 'out of shape'. And they're all valid arguments. But the reason I turn ALL assists off in the lobby is simply to create a level playing field where the same rules apply to everybody. I'm not worried about you guys gaining a few tenths. But in principle, having the option of the racing line, in effect creates an in-balance that I want to avoid.

I don't want to 'lecture' anybody. But I look at it this way. The racing line is a great tool to find your way around a new track when you don't know where to drive. But ultimately, it becomes a crutch. And the more you use it, the more you depend on it. And in reality, NOT using the racing line makes you a more effective driver. Some of the braking points it gives you are arbitrary. And in many cases if you're not already on the brakes when the racing line 'fades in' than you're already braking too late. And as you've probably already noticed, it's not very effective when drafting another car comes into play and you're forced to brake sooner than you normally would. What's more, if the field is bunched together into a tight corner and you rely on the racing line, it's not going to help and you're going to brake too late anyway.

I have to admit, if one just jumps around in on-line lobbies, it's tough to suddenly throw yourself into, oh, say the 575 GTC at Misano and immediately know your braking points, turn in points, etc. And in a situation such as that, having the option to use the braking zone/racing line is useful. It's for this reason, after being convinced by another participant, that I now try and announce the tracks a week early. And in this way it gives everybody fair time to practice, find a good setup and, most importantly, learn the braking points.

In real life, in real races, there is no racing line to fall back on. And missing your braking point can easily happen, especially in the heat of the moment and when passing another car. But that's part of racing. And I want to try and convey that in these events. Having a magic line appear on the track would be something very...I don't know the right word...artificial. Just look at my lap (3?) of Nuburgring (video page 8). I left my braking too late and totally botched it. (Well it's not the only thing I botched in that race). But it happens. And I lost touch with Turnupdaheat as a result of this error. My race might have ended up very differently had I not made this mistake. But I did and that's that.

If you want to use it for practice, by all means. But I can almost guarantee you'll learn your braking points quicker if you don't.

👍 Fair enough Jeff.

@chilledant: I've only used the racing line on the tutorial mode, right after I bought the game. And I've even didn't make them all yet. But I have the impression you're right about the "dynamicall" aspect of the racing line, and therefore, of the braking zones.

 

[jjaisli]

* Bump * Tracks and Conditions added to the first post!

Happy Thanksgiving everybody!

 

[arvore]

Hi Guys,

I appreciate the input and I was mulling it over this afternoon after I read your posts. I can fully understand your points and your reasoning for wanting to use the braking zones. But ultimately, I have to reject the idea of the racing line for the actual events. One person may think the racing line is a safety feature. Another may think having ABS is a good idea to prevent lock up and smacking into other cars. Another may think the stability control is worth while to prevent these old and unwieldy cars from getting 'out of shape'. And they're all valid arguments. But the reason I turn ALL assists off in the lobby is simply to create a level playing field where the same rules apply to everybody. I'm not worried about you guys gaining a few tenths. But in principle, having the option of the racing line, in effect creates an in-balance that I want to avoid.

I don't want to 'lecture' anybody. But I look at it this way. The racing line is a great tool to find your way around a new track when you don't know where to drive. But ultimately, it becomes a crutch. And the more you use it, the more you depend on it. And in reality, NOT using the racing line makes you a more effective driver. Some of the braking points it gives you are arbitrary. And in many cases if you're not already on the brakes when the racing line 'fades in' than you're already braking too late. And as you've probably already noticed, it's not very effective when drafting another car comes into play and you're forced to brake sooner than you normally would. What's more, if the field is bunched together into a tight corner and you rely on the racing line, it's not going to help and you're going to brake too late anyway.

I have to admit, if one just jumps around in on-line lobbies, it's tough to suddenly throw yourself into, oh, say the 575 GTC at Misano and immediately know your braking points, turn in points, etc. And in a situation such as that, having the option to use the braking zone/racing line is useful. It's for this reason, after being convinced by another participant, that I now try and announce the tracks a week early. And in this way it gives everybody fair time to practice, find a good setup and, most importantly, learn the braking points.

In real life, in real races, there is no racing line to fall back on. And missing your braking point can easily happen, especially in the heat of the moment and when passing another car. But that's part of racing. And I want to try and convey that in these events. Having a magic line appear on the track would be something very...I don't know the right word...artificial. Just look at my lap (3?) of Nuburgring (video page 8). I left my braking too late and totally botched it. (Well it's not the only thing I botched in that race). But it happens. And I lost touch with Turnupdaheat as a result of this error. My race might have ended up very differently had I not made this mistake. But I did and that's that.

If you want to use it for practice, by all means. But I can almost guarantee you'll learn your braking points quicker if you don't.

Jeff i was ,together, with Frank the other one who brought this subject up to discussion.We both feel that if this feature was allowed we could be more consistent racers(not faster it's just markings it doesn't boost up your car or modify the way it really behaves-i see it like a reminder-saying break you damn fool-and more competitive in the events so put up more fight in the pack and so turning the competition more interesting to you fastest guys in the pack.Of couse that in some way spoils the "simulation factor" but since realism as already compromised by the automatic gears...we thought bring it up for discussion.
That said i can't really disagree with you in any point that you've made and of couse it is your call and of course i will oblige to it(i antecipated with Franck that this will be the outcoming result of our effort) but i want to make a point :breaking zones it's not an assist like ABS TCC or STC that really modify the way the car behaves.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Nice! 👍

 

[jjaisli]

Arvore--just for the record, the only reason I allow Automatic Transmission, is for the same reason Mario allows it in his events. Because I've heard complaints from pad users that the lack of programmable options makes using manual transmission with the Sixaxis a real nightmare for some people. Not being a pad user, I had to take their word for it. And I don't want people to be in a situation where their fingers are falling off. As such, I grudgingly accept it and do so only because I feel using the automatic transmission in this game can be a disadvantage more often than not.

For the same reason, I really had to consider the situation when Drivatar mentioned his problems with the brake. But ultimately I decided allowing ABS would change the nature of the driving for everybody and had to reject the idea.

Again, I understand what you guys are saying. But the challenge then is for you guys to simply learn your braking points. And I'm sure you will. Neither of you two are 'slow' by any means.

 

[Ghost_Mazal]

Nice tracks

 

[Biggles]

IMO braking zones shouldn't have any place in a racing-sim. It takes a while to learn the braking points & using the braking zone is definitely an "aid" in the short-term, but ultimately it just delays the process of properly learning the tracks.

 

[hm66]

hi jeff
Missing the last event I really have to be there for this one.After the ROC round 3
this car have been one of my favorite.I think it's because of the amount of time I
pratice with it at vallelunga.I'll have to talk to the guy I work for to see if I can
start a little late that night.As long as I dont have to tell him why it should bee ok.
Maby i need a note from you jeff?
See you all soon

 

[jjaisli]

So long as you keep Alan "busy" for us, I'll write whatever note you want.

 

[Ghost_Dice]

Nice Track selection dude .... Just Love Silverstone !!

 

[bullie77]

I would also like to make a general comment after the results of the F330 P4 event. We all know lag issues and bugs caused havoc, especially at Spa. And as a result, clean racing is a bit of a shot in the dark. But in general terms, keep one rule in mind for this event. Your number one goal, your priority above all else, should be NOT to hit other cars. And I would like everybody who intends to participate to make a conscious effort in this regard. In smaller lobbies, I encourage close racing, rubbing, side by side, hard running. But combined with the lousy prediction code and nearly 16 cars in the lobby, this kind of racing can quickly degenerate into a destruction derby. Let's do our best to keep things clean and the event will be better for everybody.

I totally agree with this you have said. And picking this part of Jeff's post, I'd like to APPEAL, once again, to people to not use parts outside the track to gain unfair advantage over the rest of the competitors.

I've seen this again yesterday. You call me "picky", whatever. I even might be the only one who would not do it, I'd still wouldn't accept it just because everybody was doing it, neither that fact would, in my perspective, make it acceptable or excusable.

I know this is out of your hands Jeff, and its entirely on each one's hands and consciousness - therefore the reason of my appeal.

I also appeal for people to be, at least, straightforward and honest to say if they intend to use this 'gap' on the penalty system on their behalf during the event, to give the opportunity to those that will not use it to optate between participating at all or not.

 

[Hun200kmh]

This is the "hockenheim" problem. I don't think it's solvable. It would only be if Jeff laid out a rule and EVERYONE had cameras filming their own races (and what other cars were doing).

 

[bullie77]

This is the "hockenheim" problem. I don't think it's solvable. It would only be if Jeff laid out a rule and EVERYONE had cameras filming their own races (and what other cars were doing).

I know, hence the appeal-thing to those who are willing to use it.

Clean racing doesn't end on avoiding punting other people's cars. Clean racing, in my opinion, is to be present in every aspects from start to finish of the race.

There are always situations that might be subject of dubious interpretation but, most of racing situations can be nicely judged - like a small bump in the back before a corner can easily be understandable as a 'legit' racing accident (front guy brakes a little bit earlier, back guy brakes later and, hell we are not professional drivers, not to mention the lag issues of the game).

However, to me, this "Hockenheim problem" is pretty much like intentionally punting other people's cars out of the track, and I have great difficulty on distinguishing people who would use it from the "kubica's" of on-line racing, because just like Kubica, who would use it would have to do it INTENTIONALLY and AWARE OF THE UNFAIRNESS of their act, like Kubica intentionally do.

So, as I would not participate in an event where Kubica would be present, I will not enter on an event where this "Hockenheim problem" is acceptable to use, independently of how enjoyable to me racing with you guys is to me.

Its a matter of morals (call me old-fashioned, which I more often think I am): either we do 'clean-racing' or we don't. There's no mid-terms neither acceptable exceptions due to problems on the game. Is as simple as that.

 

[Ghost_Yelo]

The last P4 event was the first time was I forced to race without the line and assists and I had to go cold turkey in getting rid of them.

Now I refuse to ever go back and am enjoying the freedom of no line!! I'm glad we're running no assists!

 

[Ghost_Dice]

Im with you on that dude .. No line or Ass FTW !!

Really looking farward to this event . cant wait tbo .
had a couple of runs with this car last night . and all i can say , its gona get intrasting !

 

[jjaisli]

Bullie, I agree in principle with what you're saying. In 'organized' events like this, confined to a private lobby, we have to agree on standard rules. And keeping TWO WHEELS on the track at all times (track being defined as tarmac OR curb) is clear to me and SHOULD be clear to everybody. But there are always some situations which are a bit 'grey' and this is one of them. The 'outside' of the track between turns 12-13 is not covered by a penalty zone. And it probably makes sense because it's very, very easy to run wide there, especially if you're a little sloppy or come in too hot at turn 12 or you're side by side together with another car and either try to avoid contact or are simply pushed off, it wouldn't be fair to end up with a penalty. Remember, just driving wide, does NOT make that route any faster. Especially if it's an error. You have to take a wide, arching line there to really gain an advantage, and THAT should not be allowed.

But let's be reasonable here. Comparing people who push the boundaries of a track to try and gain a slight advantage in a race and people who sit on the side of the road and stalk oncoming cars to ram or punt them are two very different kinds of people and it is NOT the same.

 

[jjaisli]

Posted on the Eutechnyx forum this morning by the forum administrator:

Subject to final testing, the patch should be submitted to Sony today.

Considering the patches usually take Sony about a week to process, I'm hopeful this patch will be live for our event on December 06th. 👍

 

[sarrinen69]

Vallelunga, is that really a good idea? Nothing against the track but with this game's online problems you'll have alot of contact at the hairpin bends, especially on the first lap. I wish online they would use rolling starts like FC, as this would reduce the chance of accidents between 16 cars.

 

[bullie77]

Bullie, I agree in principle with what you're saying. In 'organized' events like this, confined to a private lobby, we have to agree on standard rules. And keeping TWO WHEELS on the track at all times (track being defined as tarmac OR curb) is clear to me and SHOULD be clear to everybody. But there are always some situations which are a bit 'grey' and this is one of them. The 'outside' of the track between turns 12-13 is not covered by a penalty zone. And it probably makes sense because it's very, very easy to run wide there, especially if you're a little sloppy or come in too hot at turn 12 or you're side by side together with another car and either try to avoid contact or are simply pushed off, it wouldn't be fair to end up with a penalty. Remember, just driving wide, does NOT make that route any faster. Especially if it's an error. You have to take a wide, arching line there to really gain an advantage, and THAT should not be allowed.

But let's be reasonable here. Comparing people who push the boundaries of a track to try and gain a slight advantage in a race and people who sit on the side of the road and stalk oncoming cars to ram or punt them are two very different kinds of people and it is NOT the same.

Jeff,

I respect your opinion, as anyone else's opinions - even of those who feel that if the 'gap' in the rules is there, it should be used. But from my point of view it is you who's mixing 2 different things - people going wide AT THE END of the curve (because they outmiss braking point and carry too much speed) vs. people who go wide BEFORE ENTERING THE CURVE, in order to get a wider entry angle = much more room for accelaration through the apex of the corner).

I'm sorry but, intentionallity is the key word here - there are no GREY BITS on this. This is something that people would only use if they intend to. To turn left off track 200m before a right turn to get maximum opening towards the apex, and repeatedly do it lap-after-lap, CANNOT be levelled to come of track on the chicane apex.

Using the fail on the game penalty system, it means to erase what clean racing means, and that is no different as punting other people's cars - its using unfair methods of gaining advantage over your competitors! Also I don't see grey bits on this.

It's like adjectivating one person of beeing very serious and other less serious: that's non-sense. You are either serious or you're not.

Clean racing isn't only to not send other people off track - its a whole code of conduct and respect and fair racing that involves many more aspects than just that one.

I'm not in to impose my view over anyone - like I said earlier I respect every opinion. If you guys decide this is admissable it's up to me to accept entering in the event under those rules, and that's fine. I just want to know if, since this is allowed (or 'overlooked', if you like) if people here would be capable of admiting it that they will do it, or if the 'clean racing policy' is all that clean after all, and people would publicly commit to not use this on the event/practice (neither future ones).

I'll decide to enter or not the event accordingly to that, neither imposing my opinions, but by all means I will not tolerate to be submissively forced to opinions I completely disagree. And everybody would be happy with the outcome. 👍

 

[jjaisli]

Bullie--you have to read my post a bit more carefully. I said that TWO WHEELS must be kept on the TRACK. And putting all four wheels over the left side line between turns 12 & 13 is NOT acceptable. What I was trying to convey, is that there may be incidents where cars run wide because:
1) it was simply an accident
2) they were trying to avoid another car
3) they were forced wide
It should not be used to PASS another car and if somebody passes a car and puts 4 wheels over the left line then they should concede the position back. But I just want to try and avoid a witch hunt after the fact with people claiming on lap X so-and-so ran wide, etc. If somebody runs a bit wide, it's unfortunate. But if somebody blatantly and clearly runs wide, than NO, this is not acceptable. As there is no penalty zone in this area, there is no way to properly police it so we'll just have to rely on the honor system here.

 

[jjaisli]

Vallelunga, is that really a good idea? Nothing against the track but with this game's online problems you'll have alot of contact at the hairpin bends, especially on the first lap. I wish online they would use rolling starts like FC, as this would reduce the chance of accidents between 16 cars.

I understand your point. But a lot of tracks have this problem. And I'm trying to avoid repeating the same tracks over and over. In the end, it's probably better to do a track like Vallenunga with this car than with say, the 512M that has much higher limits.

But (in general) it's the reason why I'm pleading for caution and restraint from people.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Jeff, please consider changing the grid settings. My suggestion is:

1st (practise) race: grid set to "record" lap (I believe this sets the order according to the leaderboard)

all event races: grid set to "fastest lap" (I believe this considers the fastest laps from the previous race)

I think this way we could (maybe) greatly reduce the problem of 1st lap pile ups

 

[bullie77]

Bullie--you have to read my post a bit more carefully. I said that TWO WHEELS must be kept on the TRACK. And putting all four wheels over the left side line between turns 12 & 13 is NOT acceptable. What I was trying to convey, is that there may be incidents where cars run wide because:
1) it was simply an accident
2) they were trying to avoid another car
3) they were forced wide
It should not be used to PASS another car and if somebody passes a car and puts 4 wheels over the left line then they should concede the position back. But I just want to try and avoid a witch hunt after the fact with people claiming on lap X so-and-so ran wide, etc. If somebody runs a bit wide, it's unfortunate. But if somebody blatantly and clearly runs wide, than NO, this is not acceptable. As there is no penalty zone in this area, there is no way to properly police it so we'll just have to rely on the honor system here.

The reading of your post previous to this one gives the idea that you are comparing a car running wide due to incident with running wide intentionally for fast driving. The key word (again, and as I've stated always) is the INTENTIONALLY of running wide - an incident, by definition is not an intentional run wide off track. Hence the fact that, IMO, you mixing incidentally situations with intentional ones make no sense and seemed like "excusing" something you don't agree just because we have no other way to check it.

I've highlighted the last part of your post because that's what I'm been saying: you have to trust people's word (honor). And that's my appeal. To people commit themselves to each other to not use this kind of drive. If so, great 👍. If not I'll not join, and great also 👍. If people commit themselves and still continue to do it, I'd wait for proper action reflected on the event table.

 

[bullie77]

Jeff, please consider changing the grid settings. My suggestion is:

1st (practise) race: grid set to "record" lap (I believe this sets the order according to the leaderboard)

all event races: grid set to "fastest lap" (I believe this considers the fastest laps from the previous race)

I think this way we could (maybe) greatly reduce the problem of 1st lap pile ups

That's worth a shot in my opinion. 👍