Should PD go back to basic?

[glassjaw]

The whole idea that PD should go back to the basics and focus on core gameplay has been a common sentiment since GT5 released. With GT5 came a slew of features new to the series, many of which weren't particularly well-polished or thought out as thoroughly as they should have been.

Keeping that in mind, I'd argue that the reason people are clinging to this simplified ideal isn't because they don't want the franchise to innovate, but instead because PD's most recent attempts at trying to change the status quo for racing games have failed miserably. The leveling system, the new B-spec mode, special events, course maker, and unique partnerships with drivers, manufacturers, and official series are all examples of this.

My problem with the OP's argument, and others that have made similar arguments, is that it sends the wrong message to developers. Developers need to change, they need to push that envelope further, and often times that process comes with a bit of trial and error. Everyone loves to point to GT1 as a model for simplicity, but it was an incredibly radical game for its day.

With GT1, PD set a standard for every game in the genre that followed it; a standard that is still followed more or less to this day. That was innovation, and 15 years later they're grasping at straws to try and pioneer the next big thing for the franchise. Only this time, they're throwing all these half-baked ideas at the wall and literally none of them are sticking. It's change for novelty's sake, rather than change to improve the overall experience. PD can't pretend like it's 1997, they need to adapt. But they need to adapt in a meaningful way.

 

[jlmcmillan1978]

I voted yes. I think PD is starting to stretch it's team thin, GT5 had a lot of features missing (some added later) and flaws that drew criticism and resulted in people calling it an unfinished game. By focusing a little less on the polish and the gimmicks you would have to think they could then have the time to improve sounds, AI, online experience, etc. As well as turn more of those damn standards into premiums.

Having said that, I applaud them for many of the extra things they introduced in GT5. I can honestly say that I would not have bought the game if they had not introduced in-car driving views, weather and time effects, painting the cars, and new vehicle types like the karts. It's just that some things like the special events seem like a waste of their time really. I really wish they were not ditching the license tests. If they incorporated your in-game 'qualifications' into the online component of the game you would have one really easy way of making sure you could race other people of the same skill level as yourself. As well as keeping the fools away who want to pick up the game for the first time, go online, and then crash into other people.

 

[Magic Ayrton]

I'd like to see PD give a little more attention to a-spec's career mode. As is, it's not really immersive... I'd like to see proper championships and the ability to consistantly use the same vehicle rather than a 90s Japanese car specific race, 60's British car specific race. Inclusions like Nascar and karting were never things I felt were missing from GT, nor would I miss them if PDs resources would be spent else where.

From one Z fan to another, I agree, I just feel that the little details add up to a lot in GT, the cockpit and engine sounds, Ai etc are the most important, then career then online

 

[Strittan]

I have to say no because the original did not include online play and that is the most important aspect of pretty much all games in this day and age.

Of course, online is an exception. An important feature indeed.

 

[Phouchg]

I might be pretty lonely in my opinions but I really like many of the experiments and additions they made to GT5. The special events really added some variation to the gameplay. Loved the Top Gear camper vans, the little nascar bit and the mercedes nürb challenge. Of course all of them were a bit short but I wouldn't want them cut out. I'd rather want them to develop those features for the next game.

The standard cars are another feature I would hated to be without. Because I can't see any realistic way that they would be able to convert all the standards to premium even if they focused on it. And would I rather have a game without those cars? definitely not.. I mostly drive standard cars, because that's where my favourite cars are. Who cares if there's a few pixels less.

No, Things that annoy me aren't the things that was added but things I wish they did differently.. like the stupid paint chip system and maybe the used car dealerships.. ok lot's of more things bug me, but they made a great game and for GT6 they just need to polish every feature to make it better. In my opinion

 

[Quakebass]

The only thing I liked about the Special Events, was the karting, but it should've been in the A-Spec career instead. The Seasonal Events lacks immersiveness, but I sometimes do them... to earn money. I don't think the Photo Mode is great (hardly used it) but to each his own. Oh, the course maker! How could I forget about that one?! Oh yeah, because it sucked.

I liked that the Special Events were sort of class-specific licenses, per-say, teaching you about Karting, Rally, NASCAR, etc. Maybe it would be better suited for the license section if that's the case, it'd be nice if the licenses/special events were the items that unlocked new races/series in A-Spec.

Again, with the Seasonal events - that was PD's way of expand A-Spec, and they did it poorly. They mostly regurgitated existing events with new restrictions (pretty much only pp) and slightly different tracks... And the payouts were higher. Sometimes there were new exciting events (like the Ferrari F1 challenge), but that wasn't common. It was almost like poorly integrated weekly race DLC (by the way, an update constitutes as "downloadable content", it just isn't necessarily monetary). PD would've been better served just releasing race packs or updates - more races for us, not too many resources to do so.

Photo mode, so far, I have NEVER seen outmatched in ANY software out there right now - it's like having several thousands of dollars in camera equipment in a 60$ package. Plus you can do things that aren't possible with the best DSLRs out there as of today. As a recreational photographer, I can DEFINITELY say it's a good piece of kit.

We don't know how the course generator is being integrated in GT6, but it's sounding MASSIVELY better than the one in GT5... Though, we haven't seen it yet. Considering what we've seen from small portions of the trailers, I'm thinking you may eat your words with that last statement...

 

[PepeMickey]

Well yes, if the core elements of the game aren't improved, no matter how many gimmicks are added, the game will just keep lagging behind the competition.

PD should focus 100% on improving the core instead of wasting time and resources on useless crap that doesn't even affect the game in any shape or form (GT Academy).

 

[HarVee]

Who cares if there's a few pixels less.

Many people do. And the reason for people caring about them is because the game lacks consistency, and the standard cars are one of the major factors that cause this. Also, it's not really a few pixels, it's a few hundred thousand polygons.

 

[Soundtrack]

... useless crap that doesn't even affect the game in any shape or form (GT Academy).

???

Possibly the most obvious and indubitable success (and that is a massive understatement) of this generation.

 

[Phouchg]

Many people do. And the reason for people caring about them is because the game lacks consistency, and the standard cars are one of the major factors that cause this. Also, it's not really a few pixels, it's a few hundred thousand polygons.

Yeah a lot of people care, I know that.. I should probably have written that I don't care about that. And that the consistency issues didn't bother me because more content goes before graphics and graphics consistency.

for me..

 

[Simon Tibbett]

I was a huge fan of Gran Turismo growing up, they were fantastic.

I bought a PS3 in anticipation of GT5 but with it being delayed forever I sold the PS3 and went iRacing and bought a 360 for FM4.

Last week I decided to finally sit down and play GT5 and I am now selling the PS3. The game is just not good and although I had planned to wait for GT6 I have no interest in it. The physics are weird, the car list is dull, and there's just too much clutter on the home screen.

I want to race, not do challenges, not race a VW Bus around the Top Gear track, I don't want to have a virtual Jeff Gordon tell me "good job!"

To me GT5 feels like a encyclopedia of cars versus a racing game, that is not what I am interested in.

 

[MustangManiac]

I think they need to decide what they want to be when they grow up, they have been around long enough, it is well past time. They claim to be a "driving simulator", but I don't see much driving going on other than on track. If they want free roam, traffic, cops etc. then they will be just another NFS wannabe, and I would hate to see that happen. I would much rather see them focus on racing; a series of events with roll over points to an eventual championship, race weekends complete with practice, qualifying and race etc. There is not enough of that going on in GT for me. Don't get me wrong, I love the game and have a great time playing and pre-ordered GT6 the day after it was available, but I would love to see them focus more on being a racing sim rather than a driving sim because as is they are not much of either.

 

[wowbaggerBR]

They should. But everybody knows that they wont.

 

[IceMan PJN]

After the announcement of the partnership with Ayrton Senna Institute, I've been thinking about where the franchise is heading, and what made me a fan of it back in the late 90's.

GT1 was a very focused racing game of top notch quality. It was hardcore and in-depth, but at the same time quite simple and straight forward. Buy a cheap car, get yourself a racing license, and make your way up the ladder. It was all about you, your racing career, your cars, and how you tuned them. This is what made GT1, 2, and 3 awesome in my opinion.

Ever since GT4 however, I've felt as if Kaz and his PD have started to lose focus. GT4 was great, no doubt, but it was not as focused as the previous titles in my opinion, with new features like Photo Mode, B-Spec, and Driving Missions being introduced.

In GT5 PD took this a step further, with a separate B-Spec career, Special Events, Seasonal Events, celebrity appearances, and Standard Cars. The latter of which made the game's quality inconsistent.

The reason I'm making this thread is because I think it would be better if PD took a step back and improved the original features (the racing/driving experience, the tuning, and the customisation) before including new ones, that are not very well done anyway. Oh, and the online service should be of high priority to improve as well, although it's no an original feature.

Thoughts?

Neither is good enough. On the one hand, it's important to get the core basics right, which things the series needs to improve in some areas. However, the basics alone aren't good enough. Even if a future GT game mastered the basics, if that's basically all it did it would be good but it wouldn't be great. The stuff that go beyond the basics make the difference between a good driving simulation and a great game. It's the difference between having a good steak and having a good steak with a baked potato and a beer/wine/whatever.

One thing they need to do is cut out the sub-par filler. Padding the car list with a bunch of last-gen stuff isn't good enough. If all of the game's cars aren't of fairly equal quality, cut the sub-standard garbage. Secondly, it isn't good enough to have a good driving physics engine if the only thing you really do in the car is gradually overtake a parade of slower cars that have been strung out over the course of a half mile ahead of you. Ditch the overtake-the-parade nonsense in favor of actual races, particularly with grid starts. Third, having cars that look nice isn't good enough if they sound like crap, and nobody is going to argue that the cars sound alright. Fourth, you can't have a driving simulator without depicting damage in the core game (A-Spec.) Arguments about doing it authentically or not doing it at all are just fanboy defense nonsense. Even crude, basic vehicle damage is still closer to reality than no damage at all, so even Forza-esque damage would be a step in the right direction. Finally, events need to be enjoyable rather than a chore. Basically nobody wants to sit around driving a bus at 3 MPH around the Top Gear test track. That's enjoyable for like five or ten players and boring to several million.

That just covers some of the basics. The basics aren't enough on their own, however.

 

[20B_4ME]

Some very good points made in this thread. I understand PD needs to make the game more appealing to not only different types of car-lovers but also non-car lovers, occasional gamers and also the young under-18 audience. That does take away from the realism. I think PD thought they had the GT formula right so they then started trying other new things since GT4. But to the true GT fan, I think the original formula still has room for improvement. I bought GT5 at the release date and have only used the photomode twice. It's kind of nifty, but that's about it for me.

In my opinion PD should operate by the following motto: Gran Turismo is "The Real Driving Simulator", so does "this" or "that" particular feature make it a better driving simulator or is it just something extra on the side? Then concentrate on making it a better, more fun and in-depth driving simulator, not a photo simulator, spectator (or racing team manager) simulator, etc. These are nice additions but should not be an essential part of the game in my opinion.

 

[Gejabo]

I would love that
Just cars and tracks

 

[sems4arsenal]

Aside from making money but an offtopic ish question, does anyone enjoy B-Spec at all?

 

[dmcallis]

Was good for breaking in cars...

 

[Strittan]

That just covers some of the basics. The basics aren't enough on their own, however.

If they are improved so that they become great, I honestly think they would be enough.

I would love that
Just cars and tracks

Well, there should be a little more to it than that I think, but nothing crazy.

How about these?

• Cars
• Tracks
• Immersive tuning and customisation
• Immersive off- and online racing experience

And that should be it really, if you ask me.

Aside from making money but an offtopic ish question, does anyone enjoy B-Spec at all?

I think I tried it once and immediately got bored.

 

[Gejabo]

I can do without custmisation.
Tuning would be ok.

Online is not something I would mis either.

This is my personal opinion.

 

[mika haka]

Spot on OP, spot on.

It's why I fell in love with the game in the first place and they need to go back to that. Focus on the racing and the cars and get rid of the garbage.

B-spec mode, I ask you is there any point to it?

 

[Bopop4]

Just go back to GT3 with more cars, more tracks, damage, and online.

Don't even update the graphics, they're perfect the way they are.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Spot on OP, spot on.

It's why I fell in love with the game in the first place and they need to go back to that. Focus on the racing and the cars and get rid of the garbage.

B-spec mode, I ask you is there any point to it?

BSpec serves one purpose to me but it's a silly one - breaking in cars. If they take out BSpec, they have to remove the break in, or provide a button to auto break in a car as an alternative.

 

[Earth]

The basics of a racing game for me:

physics
sound
AI
online
customization
damage/collision physics



I will rate Gran Turismo to this point in terms of what the basics of a modern racing game are to me.

8/10 - Pysics. Buggy at times but gives you a nice feel for the car. Still needs alot of work but solid and getting better.

3/10 - Sound. Some effects are better then others, such as the sound of wind, but engine sounds are usually way off or totally inaccurate.

5/10 - AI. They still ram you at times and are still generally too slow. But they've progressed alot since GT4.

8/10 - Online. Impressive list of options for a console racer. Just needs more filters etc

4/10 - Customization. Wings, wheels, and paint only are so PS2.

1/10 - Damage/Collision Physics - About as awful as it gets. Sometimes hard to fathom damage and collision physics have progressed at a snail's pace since the first game 15 years ago.

I cant make excuses for why a AAA game like GT with a huge budget and development period has a few severe shortcomings in the very basics of a modern racing game.

So this is what I would consider basics in terms of the core game

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I agree with most of that, but I would give online a 7/10 due to the system having issues for bigger rooms and kicking everyone out even if there isn't a user with a bad connectivity. I'd also give physics a 6.5-7/10 because of the tire and suspension model go from one extreme to the other from game to game.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

BSpec serves one purpose to me but it's a silly one - breaking in cars. If they take out BSpec, they have to remove the break in, or provide a button to auto break in a car as an alternative.

Be prepared for a flurry of posts from those who desire the game to be "work", in much the same way folks were against the idea of getting to save in the middle of the 24h races.

While GT is the only game I can think of that really touches on the ownership aspects that are oil changes and mileage affecting power (@amar212 has made some very great posts on that), in recent years I've found my time with games increasingly limited, and as those two features have no relation to the real world (I need to change my oil right when I buy my car to get 5% more power, and said power will max after about 200 miles?!), I see them as more of a hindrance than a bonus. It creates a lot more problems than it solves, too, since it makes restrictions in series very hard to make concrete. Unfortunately, I can't think of a way to really resolve that, and I doubt PD would drop it.

 

[glassjaw]

Aside from making money but an offtopic ish question, does anyone enjoy B-Spec at all?

I recently got addicted to it for like two months over the summer, so much so that I was doing very little racing of my own and really all I wanted was to build up my drivers, haha.

I enjoy it, but even I can't deny that B-spec mode was incredibly flawed in GT5. PD needs to allow for deeper commands and more race strategy options, and they have to seriously re-think B-spec with respect to endurance races. The whole strength meter thing was absurd, I had to keep switching off my two drivers every ten laps during the Laguna Seca one. It was pathetic.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Be prepared for a flurry of posts from those who desire the game to be "work", in much the same way folks were against the idea of getting to save in the middle of the 24h races.

While GT is the only game I can think of that really touches on the ownership aspects that are oil changes and mileage affecting power (@amar212 has made some very great posts on that), in recent years I've found my time with games increasingly limited, and as those two features have no relation to the real world (I need to change my oil right when I buy my car to get 5% more power, and said power will max after about 200 miles?!), I see them as more of a hindrance than a bonus. It creates a lot more problems than it solves, too, since it makes restrictions in series very hard to make concrete. Unfortunately, I can't think of a way to really resolve that, and I doubt PD would drop it.

Well they did introduce a magic ticket to take a used car and make it brand new, so you wouldn't think it would be a stretch when buying a car for a window to pop up saying:

$1000 - "Insta-Break In" along with of course,
$500 - "Change Oil"

That would leave the option open to anyone that wants to "work" for their break in and/or make a separate trip to wherever oil changes are in GT6.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Be prepared for a flurry of posts from those who desire the game to be "work", in much the same way folks were against the idea of getting to save in the middle of the 24h races.

While GT is the only game I can think of that really touches on the ownership aspects that are oil changes and mileage affecting power (@amar212 has made some very great posts on that), in recent years I've found my time with games increasingly limited, and as those two features have no relation to the real world (I need to change my oil right when I buy my car to get 5% more power, and said power will max after about 200 miles?!), I see them as more of a hindrance than a bonus. It creates a lot more problems than it solves, too, since it makes restrictions in series very hard to make concrete. Unfortunately, I can't think of a way to really resolve that, and I doubt PD would drop it.

I'm fine with the oil changes but I agree if they were realistic like the game says it is, then I'd believe it more. I'm not that 7 year old kid playing GT1 that thinks nothing of it. I'm an adult now and I know why I have to change out oil and it's not to gain a 5% boost in power.

 

[Tenacious D]

For some reason, it takes a thread like this one to help me get my thinking organized. It doesn't help that Gran Turismo is a fairly massive microcosm all its own that grows every game.

In my opinion, Gran Turismo needs to become a proper microcosm of the automotive world, incorporating in as many facets as is technically and logistically possible. Before anyone has a freakout about this idea, it really would just take a tweak or twirk to the basic GT Mode to make it feasible, not much else. A lot of that "infrastructure" is already in place in GT5. Kaz needs to decide what those elements are, and then organize the team to produce content consistent with the vision he has for that Gran Turismo.

For instance, rally racing is here to stay, clearly. Thus Kaz needs to acquire licenses of rally teams both current and classic, and model those cars with their liveries. He needs the track modeling teams to produce a sufficient number of tracks to provide a satisfying number of rally events. And hopefully, license those courses in the WRC league if possible. If not, a fantasy GT Rally league. He needs the game design team to produce those events, and at least one massive championship series. Do this same thing for as many leagues as possible: SCCA, ALMS, Super GT, FIA GT, BTCC, WTCC, DTM, Formula GT / F1 / CART / whatever, NASCAR, which I assume is returning, etc. License leagues, cars, tracks, teams and liveries, etc. As many as possible, and what he can't license, provide fantasy GT versions.

Work on those aspects of the real world that need improving or inclusion: damage, sound, livery editor, bot A.I., etc.

A number of us have been asking for a more realistic Career Mode, or in my case, a Career Mode proper, as I don't see GT Mode as anything like a racing career. While I'd prefer a separate Career Mode, I'm going to suggest a tweaked GT Mode.

License Tests. Do them, we always have.

Groan if you will, but start with Kart racing. Provide a sufficient number of events and locations so that those who like Karts can enjoy themselves, but with a "branch point" in the list that opens up to the next level, auto racing. Or if you prefer, race through the entire series for a Kart League Championship.

You have a certain amount of money, and the longer you race Karts, the more you'll have to work with. Buy a car. I'm assuming used cars will be in, so buy something used, fix it up, or new, and enter the normal GT entry, the Sunday Cup, and the other entry level races. Complete them in sequence, with a sufficient number of events and locations so that those who like the SCCA style enthusiast thing can enjoy themselves, but with a "branch point" in the list that opens up to the next level, higher performance auto racing. Or if you prefer, race through the entire series for an "SCCA Autocross League" Championship.

See what I'm, dare I say it, driving at? Each level offers a number of events which can be used to leapfrog you up a level if you want more excitement and reward, but if you want to stick it out, you can use that car - or, meh, truck - you just bought or won to complete a championship, with its level of reward, such as a car good enough to compete in the next tier. There should be some sort of SCCA Pro style level with cars of 160-200hp consisting of Ford Focuses, Honda Civics and RSXs, Volvos, Peugeots, Seats etc. As you go up in tiers, you can go into Rally racing, Super GT, DTM, whatever. But each tier should offer you a championship challenge, each one longer than the previous one, much like in GT3. A Livery Editor working hand in hand with Race Mod is pretty much essential for something like this, which is the main thing I enjoyed in Forza; the ability to create my very own racing identity down to the livery of my car.

There should be opportunities within this structure to partake in the other events offered in previous GTs, such as Manufacturer Cup races, as well as user made events, series and championships. Then there are also the Polyphony managed events, series and championships, as well as user created and managed clubs and racing leagues.

I would still like to see a proper Career Mode separate from this based on GT Academy, which runs from enthusiast level racing into professional motorsports in the league of our choice, with each tier lasting a racing season. In addition, I'd like to see a Season Mode, which gives you a chance to race a full racing season in a league for a championship. These are less important to me now, assuming we're getting a full blown Event Maker, which would let us make our own racing seasons.

I expect some of this - I'm hoping a good deal of this - is the makeup of in GT6, but to really take form and flourish in GT7 on PS4, if the good Lord does bless us with peace and plenty for a few more years.

Most of what I propose just takes more work from the game structure programmers, and more focus from Kaz on what he wants to do. So rather than just be impressed with NASCAR and try to include a few cars, tracks and a smattering of events, include NASCAR as a serious element of the game which culminates in a NASCAR championship. Instead of wanting to grab race cars here and there, or sports cars or whatever, license cars in clusters of similar performance which would match well in events, such as classic race cars from a certain series which could have that series duplicated building up to a championship.

This focused approach, along with user made content, and DLC on top of that, would keep the next Gran Turismo games appealing for... well, ever.

Uhm... in other words, no, PD shouldn't go back to basics.