Should PD have let the modding slide? ... OP Updated.

[Wankelhead]

You're completely wrong about the value of this discussion. Discussion's like this, free for all's where passion for the game is unrestricted, is the only way to find out what people are really thinking. From this discussion and others I think I can safely conclude that most people would agree with this statement, regardless of whether they support, abhor or are on the fence about the current state of hybriding.

I am for PD allowing a wide range of mods including engine, drivetrain, chassis swaps under two conditions:

1. It's well accounted for within the PP system so hybrids can race competitively with non-hybrids.

and/or

2. As a host in an open lobby or lounge, I have the option of allowing only "standard tuned cars"only, "hybrids or mods", or both.

Both are reasonable positions and would allow everyone to enjoy the game as they see fit, a better game for everyone, in my opinion.

No, I'm not. I never devalued this matter. I just said it's completly useless to discuss this, since nobody is going to switch sides no matter whatever anyone says.

When opinions clash like this, nothing of value is going to result from it. Just more and more disagreement from both sides. Just read the posts between this post and my other one, or better yet, the other two threads in which people are basicaly discussing the same matter, you'll then see what I mean with this, I think...

IMO, this won't achieve anything at all. None of us has any relation to the game production. PD's the one who should be discussing this, for they are the ones who can apply whatever changes to the game to stop or allow this.

I do agree though, this is a great way to find out about people's opinions, but this thread has already reached a veredict with the poll, and further discussion is just more of the same of what is throughout this and the other two whole threads; disagreement of opinions. Of pretty much the same people too, who are just jumping from thread to thread, so not much variety of opinions either.

I do agree with those two points you've made, but regarding the 1st one, the PP's have already caused plenty of trouble, even without the hybrids on the scene. PD should really focus on making that work well to begin with, otherwise it is quite a gamebreaker.

Also, it's not like PD is going to do anything to the hybrids based on this thread anyway, so...

 

[SunsetSailor]

I think the point is that people are using these to cheat legitimate drivers and tuners out of a clean win. I've heard plenty of excuses too.

Yes you can drop a V-8 into a sunfire in reallife, Yeah you can put the body on an Evo frame. If PD wanted you to do that in game, it would have been an option. But they didn't. And this recent Haxor movement is the reason why. The playing field is no longer level. We have people hacking car-X to be faster than any legit car of the same make/model/miles. Hours in the drag lanes have been replaced by seconds with a hack tool. And please don't pull the "it's a realistic hack" card. Who is the one to make that call...you the hacker?

On a real track,if you spank a Viper's tail with a sunfire. Guess what. If your ride didn't get inspected before your run, It sure as hell will after you are done with that run. Then everyone will know exactly what it has. We do not have that luxury with these hacks.

I think Sony/PD will soon have a master list of what every car in the game should have, and what it can max out produce. And if anything exceeds it online, It will "call home, ban your PSN name/serial#,and hash your save file" I also see PD/Sony locking the backup feature. I see sony/PD doing this to show people who is really in charge. And when we are no longer able to do the clone car trick. Blame the haxors.

The ban hammer is coming, and it's going to be great when it hits.

WOW! This one the most intelligent posts i've read in this forum so far!
And yes, i sincerely hope you're right.

Sorry about the double post. I didn't realize that's what i was about to do.
Also, i can't simply copy/paste quotes into an editing box as i'm only using mobile phone.
Now, with that out of the way..

Abusing the save backup to duplicate the cars in your garage is no less against the GT5 Terms of Use then decrypting a game save and changing the values included. Particularly not when you can also use it to duplicate usage of the DLC paint chips that PD charge for. For you to act as if car cloning is an intended feature of the save backup ability and that the people exploiting the save backup ability to do so have any right to blame the hackers if the ability to do that gets taken away is absurd.

Not once have i duped/cloned a car! I don't believe in doing that either..Never have, never will.
In any case, where in his post did he refer to this as okay? That's not what i read at all. I think what he meant was that it's so common-place that if it is prevented from happening in future, there could be a lot of people pissed off about it and blame the hackers. Nowhere did he say it's acceptable to dupe or clone cars!

They go into clean rooms, you really can't get away from them in any public room.

Exactly. I hosted a clean room yesterday and on 3 seperate occasions, someone tried to sneak in a hacked car.

2 of which was when the pp was 660 and a 550pp car was brought in. Both times when i asked them to drive on the track to check if they're lagging (a ruse), they refused and just sat there in pit lane saying nothing. But when i typed "NO HACKED CARS!" one of them couldn't run to his garage fast enough! The other one replied with "??" to which i replied "I'd like to know how a 550pp road car is expected to compete with cars at 660pp.. Again, saying nothing, he runs straight to the garage. When he emerges from his garage, he is greeted by the words, "Caught out!"

The other hacked car was snuck in when we were all using the McLaren F1 on high speed ring. He waited for me to start the race before appearing on the grid with what looked like an inferior car, but had impossible acceleration and speed on the straight. This caused me to issue a red flag, an inconvenience i don't issue lightly.

3 people with hacked cars..all winners of the trifector: reported to Sony, kicked from my lobby, and blocked from sending hate-mail or ever entering my lobby again!

 

[Stavingo]

It's just weird how people who race/drag talk about the hybrids positively and negatively yet I walk into a public drift room with my RWD R33 without asking and it's completely fine.

Have you guys thought of locking tires and seeing if that works to stop the downforce effect from chassis on particular cars? There's only so much grip within the tires

 

[Tornado]

Not once have i duped/cloned a car! I don't believe in doing that either..Never have, never will.

Cool beans. No one ever said you did.

In any case, where in his post did he refer to this as okay? That's not what i read at all. I think what he meant was that it's so common-place that if it is prevented from happening in future, there could be a lot of people pissed off about it and blame the hackers. Nowhere did he say it's acceptable to dupe or clone cars!

That'd be right here:

And when we are no longer able to do the clone car trick. Blame the haxors.

Where he implied that the people who exploit save backups can justify that behavior as a reason to complain about hybrids.

And here:

Car cloning is not done using a program on your PC. PD/Sony have the ability to block that any time they want. Plus it's not done with a hack. next time compare apples to apples. Nice try however.

Where he defended the original assertion, and further implied that hacking was "worse" in the eyes of the ToS.


And here:

There is a major difference between the two. Trade restores never cheated anyone out of a fair win.

Where he said that duping cars wasn't as bad because people aren't being cheated out of wins because of it.



Nevermind the fact that if he wasn't arguing that duplicating cars was acceptable in comparison to outright hacking, he probably should have clarified that at some point in the multiple replies he made in the side discussion about the similarities between the two things instead of just reiterating the original position each time.


In any case, the discussion was already over since he ultimately did clarify why he considers them different, so I'm curious what difference it makes to you since no one was accusing you of anything to begin with.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Have you guys thought of locking tires and seeing if that works to stop the downforce effect from chassis on particular cars? There's only so much grip within the tires

Hahahaha only the PROs drive on comfort hards (boss status)

 

[Stavingo]

Hahahaha only the PROs drive on comfort hards (boss status)

👍

 

[Teal]

Duping a car to give to someone who is collecting 0/0/0 cars, or giving a noob something they can start off with is completely different than taking car X, and modding the crap out of it so it can beat an x1. then using it to beat a clean car. There is a big difference between the two. One is done without modifying a game save,just using an older version of a game save. The other is altering the save game with a hack tool.

That's not an apples to apples comparison. It's more like not using a turn signal for a lane change.. Vs, 120mph in a school zone. Guess what one your going to lose your licence over?

And while we are at it..There are people using this hack tool to steal Stealth and Chromelines. I saw a Brit with an SS Edge Camaro.

Im really starting to hope they drop the ban hammer soon, and hard.

 

[SunsetSailor]

Cool beans. No one ever said you did.


That'd be right here:Where he implied that the people who exploit save backups can justify that behavior as a reason to complain about hybrids.

And here:Where he defended the original assertion, and further implied that hacking was "worse" in the eyes of the ToS.


And here:
Where he said that duping cars wasn't as bad because people aren't being cheated out of wins because of it.



Nevermind the fact that if he wasn't arguing that duplicating cars was acceptable in comparison to outright hacking, he probably should have clarified that at some point in the multiple replies he made in the side discussion about the similarities between the two things instead of just reiterating the original position each time.


In any case, the discussion was already over since he ultimately did clarify why he considers them different, so I'm curious what difference it makes to you since no one was accusing you of anything to begin with.

Okay then. Fair call. However, i still think you're slightly twisting his words in terms of what he implied. That's not what i inferred at all.

Having said that, where he has shot himself in the foot is where he said "When we can't..." thereby implicating himself along with a group of pissed off people.

In terms of why i replied the way i did. I know noone accused me of that. I never said anyone did. I was just expressing how strongly i feel about the matter of doing everything legitimately and legally. As to the reason why it was several hours later, it's called sleep. If i replied straight away, it would've been an intentional double post, so i left it till the morning. Would you prefer i double post next time?!

Ladies and gentlemen, i've gone from being scolded for replying to posts a year old, to replying to posts a few months old, to...a week old to...several hours old!?
Please, you're splitting hairs.

 

[arora]

One is done without modifying a game save,just using an older version of a game save. The other is altering the save game with a hack tool.

You still don't understand what I'm talking about? People are using a hacking tool to dupe cars, modifying the game save.

 

[Teal]

You still don't understand what I'm talking about? People are using a hacking tool to dupe cars, modifying the game save.

It can still be done without a hack tool. That's the difference. You don't have to modify a game save. Just use an older version of a game save. Sony and PD are well aware of the dupe/save/restore trick. You're talking about the borrow hack, Im talking about trading cars. two completely different things.

 

[Hei]

The borrow hack is possible without a pc. Borrow car > uninstall updates> reinstall updates.

Done.

 

[thelvynau]

Isnt the borrow glitch, backup duplicates etc isnt that due to a flaw and not someone hacking the files?

Then how can one be punished for exploiting a flaw along the same lines as someone modifying a saved game?

 

[Hei]

They are both against the TOS.

 

[thelvynau]

Can someone post the TOS? I always thought modification of the files were only illegal not making backups of the save you use on the system it was created on.

 

[Teal]

can someone post the tos? I always thought modification of the files were only illegal not making backups of the save you use on the system it was created on.

+1

When I finish my 1320, I've either beaten someone with a clean car, or I've lost. Losing to a clean car is fine. Losing to a hacked car....BS. It's like running a Turbo/Supercharger in an NA class.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Time for the rubber to hit the road and find out just what these "realistic" hybrids can do against standard tuned cars. I'm willing to put in the time and effort to organize it and participate and if you know me, you know it'll be clean, well organized racing. No 3500hp/550PP cars here, just realistic creations, tuned for circuit and oval racing if there's enough interest.

If you're interested as a Designer, Tuner or Driver, check out the thread below in the Interest Checks Forum. Hope to see you there!!!

[post=8311754]Hybrids vs. Standard Tuned Cars - Let's Race!!!![/post]​

 

[Stavingo]

Time for the rubber to hit the road and find out just what these "realistic" hybrids can do against standard tuned cars. I'm willing to put in the time and effort to organize it and participate and if you know me, you know it'll be clean, well organized racing. No 3500hp/550PP cars here, just realistic creations, tuned for circuit and oval racing if there's enough interest.

If you're interested as a Designer, Tuner or Driver, check out the thread below in the Interest Checks Forum. Hope to see you there!!!

[post=8311754]Hybrids vs. Standard Tuned Cars - Let's Race!!!![/post]​

Unfortunately I think the standard cars will win that because you can't tune hybrids and their suspension IIRC, or can someone clarify that for me 👍

 

[Team THRT Drift]

Unfortunately I think the standard cars will win that because you can't tune hybrids and their suspension IIRC, or can someone clarify that for me 👍

The second you touch the suspension settings, your suspension mods are gone. Same thing happens with changing to a new tuning sheet. Unless you got the stock suspension, in which case you can buy the Fully customizable suspension. BTW what does IIRC stand for?

 

[C_Raccoon23]

If I recall correctly.

 

[Tornado]

"If I recall correctly."

And while we are at it..There are people using this hack tool to steal Stealth and Chromelines. I saw a Brit with an SS Edge Camaro.

As far as Apples/Apples comparisons go, people actively use the car duping to "steal" DLC paint chips by backing up their saves, then painting a car with them and trading it, then restoring their saves so they never used the paint chip. Against the ToS is against the ToS.

Isnt the borrow glitch, backup duplicates etc isnt that due to a flaw and not someone hacking the files?

Then how can one be punished for exploiting a flaw along the same lines as someone modifying a saved game?

Can someone post the TOS? I always thought modification of the files were only illegal not making backups of the save you use on the system it was created on.

Knowingly exploiting the game's systems to gain things outside of the official channels (be it multiple uses out of single-use paint chips, as people have been doing for the DLC paints through the dupe glitch; or permanently borrowing cars from friends by deleting install data and reloading the game) easily falls under the "intent to gain an unfair advantage" part of the PSN ToS just like hybriding does; though I can't find the GT5 Terms of Use anywhere and after 10 minutes of looking I'm not really fussed to look for which thread it was posted in on GTP.

As far as "would they take action against you for taking advantage of an exploit," at this point if they haven't done so, they probably won't. But they could have done so, and that's the reason why discussing either exploit (not to mention things like the SSR7 track breakout glitches) was so divisive on GTP for a good while after they were discovered because there was a fear that Sony would take action against everyone and (say) disable the save backups.







As far as companies taking action against people who just exploit a mistake, you need look no further then MMOs. There are mass temp bans every time a new exploit is found and people use it to gain an advantage, even if not against other players directly.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

The only thing that is gone is the ride height due to slammed height, the rest of the suspension setting will stay intact or go back to default if proper procedure not followed.

When the suspension comes from another car, the receiving and donor needs to have full custom suspension, so when the receiving car got the donor suspension, it can be tuned properly, same goes with transmission If you put custom suspension on a stock suspension fitted car regardless if you have bought the custom one on that receiving car, the suspension tuning page won't have any suspension selected and choosing any will revert it back to default.

 

[TorqueHappenS08]

So far, i have seen a full split in the hybrid community. On one hand you have the Ridiculous HP cars, that people are starting to hate(myself included) and on the other hand you have the replica cars, replicating real life tuning garage cars.Along with nice lowered stances. I'm happy to say i completely crossed over. 60.000+ HP is only good for a laugh, blazing around route X. and slamming into the wall at top gear test track.... It got really old. Very fast. I rather cruise in my 1000hp supra anyday, similar to my supra from Granturismo 2, except it had 1034 hp back then. Before PD went all tuning restricted. those were the days, and now they're back for me and alot of other people.

 

[Team THRT Drift]

If I recall correctly.

"If I recall correctly."

Ah, thanks guys.

 

[thelvynau]

"If I recall correctly."

As far as Apples/Apples comparisons go, people actively use the car duping to "steal" DLC paint chips by backing up their saves, then painting a car with them and trading it, then restoring their saves so they never used the paint chip. Against the ToS is against the ToS.

Knowingly exploiting the game's systems to gain things outside of the official channels (be it multiple uses out of single-use paint chips, as people have been doing for the DLC paints through the dupe glitch; or permanently borrowing cars from friends by deleting install data and reloading the game) easily falls under the "intent to gain an unfair advantage" part of the PSN ToS just like hybriding does; though I can't find the GT5 Terms of Use anywhere and after 10 minutes of looking I'm not really fussed to look for which thread it was posted in on GTP.

As far as "would they take action against you for taking advantage of an exploit," at this point if they haven't done so, they probably won't. But they could have done so, and that's the reason why discussing either exploit (not to mention things like the SSR7 track breakout glitches) was so divisive on GTP for a good while after they were discovered because there was a fear that Sony would take action against everyone and (say) disable the save backups.

As far as companies taking action against people who just exploit a mistake, you need look no further then MMOs. There are mass temp bans every time a new exploit is found and people use it to gain an advantage, even if not against other players directly.

Thanks I wasnt sure if all of it falls under a breach.

Much appreciated for the information.

 

[esoxhntr]

If you put custom suspension on a stock suspension fitted car regardless if you have bought the custom one on that receiving car, the suspension tuning page won't have any suspension selected and choosing any will revert it back to default.

you can get around this by going into sheet b, buying a custom suspension or transmission then going back into the 'hacked' sheet a and voila.. editable hacked custom suspension/transmission. 👍

 

[Team THRT Drift]

you can get around this by going into sheet b, buying a custom suspension or transmission then going back into the 'hacked' sheet a and voila.. editable hacked custom suspension/transmission. 👍

Tried that but the removed wing came back

 

[Chinese_Drifter]

To me personally, I would never use a hacked/modded car simply because I bought Gran Turismo as a simulator. Not a hellaflush sim or engine swap sim. I am happy with my 300hp Integra because let's face it. There is no way you will be pulling 1000hp from a B18 using the tuning features in GT5. However, I don't mind those that use hacked/modded cars as long as they remain in hacked/modded only servers.

 

[1241Penguin]

To me personally, I would never use a hacked/modded car simply because I bought Gran Turismo as a simulator. Not a hellaflush sim or engine swap sim. I am happy with my 300hp Integra because let's face it. There is no way you will be pulling 1000hp from a B18 using the tuning features in GT5. However, I don't mind those that use hacked/modded cars as long as they remain in hacked/modded only servers.

Would you also believe a Miata with an RX-7 engine would be unrealistic?

 

[nickg07]

Would you also believe a Miata with an RX-7 engine would be unrealistic?

With x2010 suspension and LM car chassis? Its all realistic people do this all the time.

You are trying to justify an open hacking platform where virtually any variable can be swapchopped on the basis that you can create the omdd freak car that has existed in reality, ignoring the effects of the hacking on a larger scale and its effect on in game parity.

 

[Hei]

X1 suspension is horrible