Should the Veyron have a place in GT6

[another_jakhole]

So you are saying you only use premium cars? That is very closed-minded. Some of the greatest cars in the game are standard.

Get outta towwwn. I haven't even used the Enzo yet so you know.

I sometimes use Standard cars, but I don't like to for the lack of a decent enough interior VIEW. I don't even use the LMP's and those have good enough cockpits views. Close-minded would be me saying that there are only +250 cars in GT5. Once I'm driving a Standard car, I don't think it's as bad as I made it seem. Isuzu Bellett 1600 GT-R '69, one of my favorites in the game.

 

[lebes14]

I can't stand standards, when I played gt5 more frequently I didn't mind too much, but now that I just do some practice laps now and then, the standards are just too poorly executed and are quite honestly a bore. Ruins the experience for me.

 

[Brend]

See no reason it shouldn't be in the game to be honest. 👍

 

[1241Penguin]

You have no idea how engineering works then?

Guess not. My point being that if such a thing isn't done in real life, and GT being a simulator, it shouldn't be done in GT either.

 

[Downhill Dino]

I'm usually not the one to bash the use of the word "simulator", but it is still a game. Through it all, it's a game, a game is not always up to par with the real world.

 

[1241Penguin]

I'm usually not the one to bash the use of the word "simulator", but it is still a game. Through it all, it's a game, a game is not always up to par with the real world.

Yes, but PD shouldn't add cars to the game if the know that it's unrealistic.

 

[Exorcet]

Guess not. My point being that if such a thing isn't done in real life, and GT being a simulator, it shouldn't be done in GT either.

There are tons of money spent on simulators all the time for the sole purpose of simulating things that don't exist.

What is lost by including fictional cars? GT5 has the X1 and FGT. If it didn't you could have a F2007 F1 race (with more F2007's than existed in reality too) just as you can with the X1 and FGT in the game. The only thing you get by taking out the fictional cars is a narrow sim, ie one with less options.

The applies to things beyond cars even if no one ever brings it up. If GT shouldn't allow the X1 and FGT, it shouldn't allow the F2007 to race the F10, nor should it allow 16 of either car. All the fictional tracks should go and Nurburgring races should be impossible for a lot of cars since they never race there, just like NASCAR is never a Monza or Spa. The Pescarolos should only be useable at La Sarthe and only for the 24 hr endurance races. Group C cars should never race LMP's and if you try to race a road car with buying a roll cage and fire extinguisher from the GT tuning shop you shouldn't be allowed to enter a race.

There is a difference between "game that only allows things that have happened" and "simulator". They are not the same things.

Yes, but PD shouldn't add cars to the game if the know that it's unrealistic.

Now you changed the subject. No one would disagree. Unrealistic cars don't belong in a sim, that's why the work that went into the X1 is appreciated. It's something realistic.

 

[1241Penguin]

The applies to things beyond cars even if no one ever brings it up. If GT shouldn't allow the X1 and FGT, it shouldn't allow the F2007 to race the F10, nor should it allow 16 of either car. All the fictional tracks should go and Nurburgring races should be impossible for a lot of cars since they never race there, just like NASCAR is never a Monza or Spa. The Pescarolos should only be useable at La Sarthe and only for the 24 hr endurance races. Group C cars should never race LMP's and if you try to race a road car with buying a roll cage and fire extinguisher from the GT tuning shop you shouldn't be allowed to enter a race.

Now you've changed the subject. Would it be possible to replicate an X1 in real life, as well as the way it drives in GT5?



Doesn't look plausible to me.

Now you changed the subject. No one would disagree. Unrealistic cars don't belong in a sim, that's why the work that went into the X1 is appreciated. It's something realistic.

Funny, that.

 

[tpark103]

I voted Don't Care only because I just don't drive it much. I know I would miss it if it was gone. I love cars and every car deserves to be in here.

 

[Exorcet]

Doesn't look plausible to me.

That's fine. Show that it's wrong using physics.

And then show that what is wrong is wrong with the X1 and not GT5.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=226995

The problem with your video is that you post a video with any car and blow the whistle on realism.

 

[1241Penguin]

Like the fact that the tires shouldn't be able to last one bit on that car? Or the fact that the driver is likely to have a blackout?

 

[Exorcet]

Warning, post edit conversation. Equal signs mark new reply.

Like the fact that the tires shouldn't be able to last one bit on that car?

GT5's tire model is terrible. How else could you put the same racing slicks that F1 cars use on the Tank Car without a problem.

Or the fact that the driver is likely to have a blackout?

The driver wouldn't black out even if
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtASwdznkrA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM0Vl5sXwy0

These problems exist for all cars.

Let me just try to make it clear that this

Would it be possible to replicate an X1 in real life, as well as the way it drives in GT5?

is a null question. You can't replicate any car in real life as they drive in GT5 because GT5 is off the mark. Sometimes way off.

What problems there are with the X1 are not limited to the car itself (and I'd wager that unrealistic design choices are the smaller problem). The big problem is GT5 can't realistically enough model cars in general.

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However, when you're driving the X1, you would constantly be battling against G-forces, even when just driving normally. When driving normally in other cars, you don't.

Formula 1, NASCAR, Indy Car.

It doesn't mean you couldn't drive it.

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The X1 is not "that unrealistic". Were Nurburgring flat I wouldn't even raise an eyebrow at the video. I still don't raise an eyebrow at the video since the X1 is basically a car that generates LMP downforce at zero mph while adding F1 aerodynamic downforce times 2 when it's moving. It only makes sense that it corners flat out at 220 mph.

You can't compare the X1 to existing race cars because it is not them. The Nring video above is as realistic as one depicting a Audi sedan going around the Ring. Both cars have overdamped suspension and the air flow underneath or around the car means nothing even as the car is bounced around on bump after bump.

Read my earlier post before this.

The F1, NASCAR, Indy comment still stands then. Unless there is evidence suggesting the driver will black out, there is no reason to believe that driving the X1 will lead to a driver black out.

 

[1241Penguin]

GT5's tire model is terrible. How else could you put the same racing slicks that F1 cars use on the Tank Car without a problem.



The driver wouldn't black out even if
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtASwdznkrA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM0Vl5sXwy0

These problems exist for all cars.

I'm not denying any of these problems with GT5. It is in my understanding that GT5's tire model is very basic (according to the GT vs FM physics thread).

I am also not denying the fact that greater consequences for driving like an idiot (or driving whilst glitching the game) is needed. However, when you're driving the X1, you would constantly be battling against G-forces, even when just driving normally. When driving normally in other cars, you don't.

Let me just try to make it clear that this

is a null question. You can't replicate any car in real life as they drive in GT5 because GT5 is off the mark. Sometimes way off.

Make a car that can go around a track like the way it does in that video I just posted, in real life. If you want to play the "GT5 is off the mark" thing; obviously, GT5 isn't an exactly replica of real life, to an extent, however. There are going to be the unrealistic bits in GT5, but they shouldn't be that unrealistic.

Formula 1, NASCAR, Indy Car.

It doesn't mean you couldn't drive it.

Read my earlier post before this.

 

[1241Penguin]

Apologies for the double post. But I hope this will get him to stop editing his own posts as it gets confusing.

The X1 is not "that unrealistic". Were Nurburgring flat I wouldn't even raise an eyebrow at the video. I still don't raise an eyebrow at the video since the X1 is basically a car that generates LMP downforce at zero mph while adding F1 aerodynamic downforce times 2 when it's moving. It only makes sense that it corners flat out at 220 mph.

You can't compare the X1 to existing race cars because it is not them. The Nring video above is as realistic as one depicting a Audi sedan going around the Ring. Both cars have overdamped suspension and the air flow underneath or around the car means nothing even as the car is bounced around on bump after bump.

Using your current argument, you may as well add in a few turbofan powered go-kart vacuum cleaners as well. But don't worry about it being "unrealistic," because we've calculated what it should be like, even though it doesn't actually exist in real life.

The F1, NASCAR, Indy comment still stands then. Unless there is evidence suggesting the driver will black out, there is no reason to believe that driving the X1 will lead to a driver black out.

What about the comment I made about the tires not going to last too long?

 

[MoLiEG]

^ Agreed, adding too many variations makes it no different from the Skyline/Miata/NSX fiasco

In my opinion, only these four variants should be included (since there are enough differences to justify adding them as different versions IMHO):
- EB 16.4 Veyron (original version)
- Veyron Grand Sport (removable top)
- Veyron Super Sport
- Veyron Vitesse (Grand Sport with Supersport engine)

And yes, ALL cars should be modifiable 💡

That list would be perfect!

Just add the Centenaire Edition and it's all set! 👍

 

[Exorcet]

Using your current argument, you may as well add in a few turbofan powered go-kart vacuum cleaners as well. But don't worry about it being "unrealistic," because we've calculated what it should be like, even though it doesn't actually exist in real life.

You don't understand my argument at all. How would something like that be realistic at all?

What about the comment I made about the tires not going to last too long?

Addressed. GT tire model.

That list would be perfect!

Just add the Centenaire Edition and it's all set! 👍

Is there much reason to add the Grand Sport versions? Do they perform differently at all (were they ever tested for that matter)? I guess it would be nice for the convertible guys though.

 

[Samus]

How is the GT tyre model addressing the fact it wouldn't work in real life? You can't just say "Well it doesn't matter, the tyre model is wrong anyway".

 

[Exorcet]

I'd like to see why it wouldn't work in real life first off.

Secondly, he is trying to use the GT performance of the X1 to determine whether it's realistic or not which is flawed because GT would get the X1 wrong no matter what. Even if the car was real, was built, and tested to the point that people knew 100% of its capability to 100% accuracy. The physics model required is not there (yet) for any car. Let's say that it's impossible for a tire to withstand a 3 minute Ring lap. Where did the 3 minute lap come from? GT5. What would the X1 do if built in reality to the same specs that it has in GT5? It could be 5 minutes. GT5 could be as a big a source of error, if not more, than inaccuracies that went into defining the X1.

 

[Youngun]

Is there much reason to add the Grand Sport versions? Do they perform differently at all (were they ever tested for that matter)? I guess it would be nice for the convertible guys though.

Yes, grand sport had more power compared to original to Handle extra weight so it kept up the speed but only 240 top speed tho (still fastest convertible in the world tho- just for that reason should be). Just like any convertible handles differently (should have a Cabrio race if lots added)

 

[Samus]

It's not about why it wouldn't work, it's about the fact it doesn't work at the moment. Like I said earlier it's like the age old claim by F1 designers that F1 cars generate so much downforce they could drive upside down in a tunnel. They have the theory it would work but since nobody is stupid enough to try it we don't know if they're right or wrong.

This is the same. Adrian Newey and Red Bull has designed the X2010 and told PD what they think such a car could perform like. Since as you say it doesn't exist in real life we have no idea how it really would perform. Therefore I see no place for a theoretical car like the X2010 in GT6, personally.

 

[F1]

I think it should be as I said earlier. I have recently thought though it should be 2 tone paint able.

 

[Exorcet]

It's not about why it wouldn't work, it's about the fact it doesn't work at the moment. Like I said earlier it's like the age old claim by F1 designers that F1 cars generate so much downforce they could drive upside down in a tunnel. They have the theory it would work but since nobody is stupid enough to try it we don't know if they're right or wrong.

We can know whether they are right or wrong. We don't need to built a F1 car and a super long tunnel. We can do it via simulation. No one has bothered because no one cares (outside of curiousity).

Believe it or not, simulations can be more accurate than real life. This is because real life data can never be taken directly. You don't just measure the speed of something, you flash EM waves at it and measure how far it's moved between pulses. You lose some data in the process because your timer isn't perfectly accurate and the target could do anything between pulses including move at 10 times the speed of light in a circle and end up back where it started. Virtual testing removes measurement error, because everything everywhere is known, but it has some error from non perfect equations and limited computer power. If the latter error is smaller than the measurement error, then virtual testing is more accurate.

But that's a bit of a tangent. The point is, there is more than enough known about physics to figure out whether a car can drive upside down or not (and other things). You could argue that we wouldn't be 100% sure, but we really can never be 100% sure.

This is the same. Adrian Newey and Red Bull has designed the X2010 and told PD what they think such a car could perform like. Since as you say it doesn't exist in real life we have no idea how it really would perform. Therefore I see no place for a theoretical car like the X2010 in GT6, personally.

It is probably more accurate to say that they only know it's performance to +/- 15% or something like that. What the actual number is, I don't know, because I wasn't involved with the project. However, everything on the car is beyond plausible because all the parts do exist or have existed. The closest comparison to the X1 in the real world in terms of accuracy is probably a car in an advanced development stage where goals have been defined and there is a concept that both approaches these performance goals while also being plausible as far as manufacturing goes. This is what separates the X1 from the ridiculous jet vacuum and 5000 hp 10 lb car ideas proposed before.

In short, "in theory" doesn't mean big question marks and storm clouds of uncertainly. Theory is the very thing that leads us to real products, and in modern times it can be really, really accurate. The X1, the one designed by Red Bull, not the one in GT5, is probably inaccurate somewhere, but I don't see much reason to think of it as being a fantasy, as in magical and unrealistic, car.

For the record, while I don't agree that sims should be limited to reality (only cars that have been built) as opposed to just realism (cars that have been built along with cars that could be built) I can accept it as a position that a simulator fan would hold. There two sides don't conflict though. The person who wants the former can just not bother with the fictional cars.

 

[Youngun]

It's not about why it wouldn't work, it's about the fact it doesn't work at the moment. Like I said earlier it's like the age old claim by F1 designers that F1 cars generate so much downforce they could drive upside down in a tunnel. They have the theory it would work but since nobody is stupid enough to try it we don't know if they're right or wrong.

This is the same. Adrian Newey and Red Bull has designed the X2010 and told PD what they think such a car could perform like. Since as you say it doesn't exist in real life we have no idea how it really would perform. Therefore I see no place for a theoretical car like the X2010 in GT6, personally.

If I got paid, I would but but i dont think there's a tunnel long enough, let alone flat and clear to drive up side down. And how would it start, you would need to drive correct way then upside down making it harder as F1 are low for that downforce needed. The X1 is like a wing, so fast enough, could work in any direction, even sideways but gravity may pull it to earth (unless that fan keeps it planted to the wall)

 

[cggorman]

It's not about why it wouldn't work, it's about the fact it doesn't work at the moment. Like I said earlier it's like the age old claim by F1 designers that F1 cars generate so much downforce they could drive upside down in a tunnel. They have the theory it would work but since nobody is stupid enough to try it we don't know if they're right or wrong.

This is the same. Adrian Newey and Red Bull has designed the X2010 and told PD what they think such a car could perform like. Since as you say it doesn't exist in real life we have no idea how it really would perform. Therefore I see no place for a theoretical car like the X2010 in GT6, personally.

I saw that episode of top gear also... haha I agree I believe only real prototypes should be in gt6 no more PD custom made cars.

 

[Samus]

A simulator will never be a perfect digital version of reality though, if it was everything F1 teams test on their simulators would work exactly the same when they got to the track but it doesn't. They constantly test things and they work well on the simulator but they get to the track and it doesn't work so well. These simulators are obviously multitudes more advanced than GT5 but still they get it wrong. So I don't really agree that something in a simulator is proof it could happen in reality.

Anyway I have no problem with fictional cars in general as long as I find the way the drive and/or look believable. I'm not a great fan of some of the touring cars and LM cars PD have come up with over the years but they're ok because they look and drive and I'd expect a similar real car to. Something like the Nike GT4 car or the X1 I don't want to see though because they don't conform to reality as I know it, mainly visually in terms of the Nike car and performance wise with the X1. I know what they were going for with the X1, it was supposed to be what an F1 car would be without restrictions but I would have liked it better if they didn't go so far with it, If it was more believeable like a modern 1980s car.

 

[gamerdog6482]

PD didn't design the Nike ONE. Nike did, to my knowledge. Actually, it was that Phil guy.

 

[Samus]

I never said they did, they put it in their game though.

 

[Youngun]

A simulator will never be a perfect digital version of reality though, if it was everything F1 teams test on their simulators would work exactly the same when they got to the track but it doesn't. They constantly test things and they work well on the simulator but they get to the track and it doesn't work so well. These simulators are obviously multitudes more advanced than GT5 but still they get it wrong. So I don't really agree that something in a simulator is proof it could happen in reality.

Anyway I have no problem with fictional cars in general as long as I find the way the drive and/or look believable. I'm not a great fan of some of the touring cars and LM cars PD have come up with over the years but they're ok because they look and drive and I'd expect a similar real car to. Something like the Nike GT4 car or the X1 I don't want to see though because they don't conform to reality as I know it, mainly visually in terms of the Nike car and performance wise with the X1. I know what they were going for with the X1, it was supposed to be what an F1 car would be without restrictions but I would have liked it better if they didn't go so far with it, If it was more believeable like a modern 1980s car.

I think it's believable, just no point wasting funds on it in a recession, but I think it's possible to build and would work, Caparo T1 proved the design can create downforce well by not being constricted to regulations. Covered wheels, well designed spoiler and body, and lightness. (X1 is just way more advanced than the T1) maybe we should have the Caparo in the game to breach the gap

 

[Exorcet]

A simulator will never be a perfect digital version of reality though, if it was everything F1 teams test on their simulators would work exactly the same when they got to the track but it doesn't. They constantly test things and they work well on the simulator but they get to the track and it doesn't work so well. These simulators are obviously multitudes more advanced than GT5 but still they get it wrong. So I don't really agree that something in a simulator is proof it could happen in reality.

The accuracy depends on what you're simulating, and the issues that can occur between simulator and reality don't just stem from simulator accuracy, but modeling accuracy. If the engineer forgets that gravity is there for example, the simulation is thrown off. Though of course this could happen in the tunnel run, but that's why there is peer review (which F1 doesn't get because it's all secret).

Anyway I have no problem with fictional cars in general as long as I find the way the drive and/or look believable. I'm not a great fan of some of the touring cars and LM cars PD have come up with over the years but they're ok because they look and drive and I'd expect a similar real car to. Something like the Nike GT4 car or the X1 I don't want to see though because they don't conform to reality as I know it, mainly visually in terms of the Nike car and performance wise with the X1. I know what they were going for with the X1, it was supposed to be what an F1 car would be without restrictions but I would have liked it better if they didn't go so far with it, If it was more believeable like a modern 1980s car.

Why is being believable more important than being realistic? If the X1 in GT5 looks ridiculous but is 100% accuracy, should it be removed? For that matter why does the Nike looking strange have anything to do with it's place in GT. It's not unfeasible.

They shouldn't water down cars to meet with people's expectation. If they were going for the ultimate, they shouldn't aim any lower.

But again, keep in mind that GT5 shoulders a lot of blame for inaccuracies. Just as GT's LMP cars have no problem going down Sarthe at 250 mph with max downforce, the X1 is going 300 mph while using a set up that would likely prohibit such a thing. Tire grip is a constant that is enhanced by downforce, and there is no way to mismatch cars and tires because tires cannot fail in this game. This leads to Tank Cars on what are supposedly fragile tires and Race Cars that can carelessly slide through corners without worrying about spontaneous tire failure.

If GT6 is more accurate, the X1 could very well become a completely different car. In particular I predict slower max speed (much slower) with high downforce, sensitivity to bumps and elevation changes that would limit cornering speed, and a tire model that might allow selecting the wrong tires or overworking your tires to the point of failure.

 

[Samus]

The Nike One used fictional technology.

I don't see how you can say the X1 was 100% accurate to real life for reasons already covered.