SimVibe (SimXperience)

[Mr Latte]

I cannot comment too much on Simvibes filters as it has been almost 2 years since I last played around with it properly. With its own filters it could be hard to tell what they are actually doing, without listening to the audio output. Likely it is used to smooth off the effects and possibly clean distortion from how it generates/converts the motion physics/data into audio frequencies.

Been discussing/researching lately with @RW65 in his (Latte Question) thread and will next year be getting back into it with current build. It has quite a bit of stuff going on about tactile and a lot of waffling too about the whole subject but if you want to look over it you might get some benefit/usage from it. Really however it is a shame that their does not seem to be many very active or useful Simvibe threads around and with people experimenting or providing more detail about it including the official forums.

Certainly if you get a chance look into the Inuke software.
I assume you already are using basic features like the wattage limiter for the AP?

Yes I seen the 4 LFE spring build. Kinda crazy and certainly seems most of the energy of the tactile is going into the springs for vertical movement than actual tactile performance. One example I highlighted even to him at SRT in the past is that much beyond the 90Hz is pointless on many units as their isn't much to feel. Yet if people are setting effects upto 130Hz as some guides refer to or more, they are giving the tactile much more work to do, so diminishing the optimal performance with a larger working range. I suggest what is the point if a user does not feel much over 90Hz but one of the first things you can do is test your own different units to determine the cut off from the inuke for them to operate with.

This is very easy for your AP and LFE to experiment with.


Set the "High Pass" = Start and "Low Pass" = Finish (Working Ranges)
Feel free to test your Simvibe settings as they are for now but set the above for 90Hz Start and 150Hz Finish. See what effects you feel, you might be surprised but I'd be curious to your findings.

I wont go into PEQ here just now to overcomplicate but certainly mess about with that working range on the inuke if you want to try limited ranges to get an understanding of what the tactile is doing with the Simvibe Effects you place in the Output Mixer across whatever working range you want to monitor.

You may find based on how frequency tones can operate that the below may be a general guide if not fully accurate. Of course though it depends on what TONES you are using within some of the effects:

20-40Hz = biggest impacts/bumps/low revs
40-60Hz = medium impacts/bumps/mid revs & textures
60-90Hz = small impacts/bumps/high revs & textures

Although it isnt just the same...
Consider these 3 ranges on the tactile a bit like a 3way speaker utilising individual crossovers for Bass/Mid/Tweeter drivers.

The LFE works best in the 20-40Hz range with all the dirty gritty tactile
You may like it a bit higher for added detail but its performance is in its brute low end.

 

[grog]

Quick question (I hope) why the Nu3000? I picked up the Nu1000 because I'm not gonna need the extra wattage, or is there another reason to choose the 3000 over the 1000?

 

[Mr Latte]

Quick question (I hope) why the Nu3000? I picked up the Nu1000 because I'm not gonna need the extra wattage, or is there another reason to choose the 3000 over the 1000?

Really it is only power differences....
I would recommend the DSP versions for the little extra they cost.
Does the average Simvibe user need the features, well no but can you improve your tactile control and performance with them, well yes.

Buttkickers Biggest LFE model needs the power.
I personally find the Fullsize LFE model needs over 600 watts to make it operate well.
The 3000 model can manage to power two of the fullsize LFE units to please most people/applications.
The 6000 model can easily power two LFE to their max of 1500w each.

 

[Dean Ogurek]

Thank you so much for the information Mr Latte. I'll look into testing using the iNuke software as you describe. That should help me to associate the frequency output with the result and actual feel much better. It's all quite interesting stuff, especially with how it results in customization of tactile feedback for Sim-Racing.

 

[Mr Latte]

No problems Dean I enjoy helping out and the interaction. Will appreciate some of your own feedback based on your own testing and opinions. With the testing approach of above you can get a good idea at what effects you like each tactile to operate with and also what frequency ranges you think suit them for optimal performance.

Look forward to your comments on how things are going.
Would enjoy being in a situation with all my tactile enjoying some games and doing the same, the Dirt Rally looks, sounds and likely could feel awesome.

 

[Mr Latte]

If you fiddle around with the above Filter/Crossover test and want to try the next step then certainly we can.
Perhaps you may find that the Big LFE isnt so good with the detail and that the AP does not handle so well having both engine and bumps together.

It would be possible to test what I think is the best solution, by using the performance advantages of both the AP & LFE you have on a single channel. If for example you had engine and bumps etc all combined on a single EM channel. You simply duplicate the channel having two identical but using the Filter/Crossover discussed above to create their own START/FINISH working ranges for each unit. This then rather cleverly enables you to develop your Simvibe effects using only the frequencies from the effects that you know work well on each individual unit. So we are splitting the effects across dual units. Similar to how a speaker uses bass/mid driver units mentioned in the previous analogy.

In layman terms you enable the LFE to only operate with the lower end frequencies from the joint effects and with the AP utilise it for the frequencies associated more with the smaller bumps/detail/textures. The first test is important as it enables you to confirm what frequency ranges these and other effects are utilising. Also importantly it lets you determine their cut off range if you do not like/want them operating beyond certain frequency ranges.

So effectively you may have the LFE on something like 20-45Hz and the AP on 45Hz-90HZ. Both units now have approx 50% of the working range as a standard unit has. This way they not only operate with the frequencies they work best with but are doing so much more efficiently. Things like the engine filter with a long range of frequency will in this case start on the LFE and transfer to the AP. You can still have your PUC on their own engine/speed based filter that you prefer.

This should improve the issue you are finding with Dirt as the low engine rumble at slower speeds should in theory be on the LFE allowing the AP to perform in frequencies used for the small bumps all without the limits of using a single unit and losing that small bump detail you want.

I call it "Dual Role" but you need the inuke DSP (or similar amps) to be able to do it and it is to my knowledge an approach nobody else seemingly suggested trying. I have only tested this with Clark TST & Buttkicker so if your willing to try at some point it would be good to hear your feedback if it is successful with the AP.

The PEQ can also be used later as previously mentioned for fine tuning. If for example lets say you determine that the road textures are using 57Hz-63Hz range with the PEQ we can increase only these frequencies strength by a few +db for added boost. Of course not all Simvibe effects are TONE based so cannot be controlled but we can tweak the frequencies we find them using. This may not always be ideal but is a further option.

It is things like this that will enable you to take your tactile performance beyond normal amplifiers limited capabilities and do things Simvibe itself does not offer control of.

Okay well if you made it here thanks, look forward to more chats and sorry that the posts get rather long.

 

[Dean Ogurek]

If you fiddle around with the above Filter/Crossover test and want to try the next step then certainly we can.
Perhaps you may find that the Big LFE isnt so good with the detail and that the AP does not handle so well having both engine and bumps together.

It would be possible to test what I think is the best solution, by using the performance advantages of both the AP & LFE you have on a single channel. If for example you had engine and bumps etc all combined on a single EM channel. You simply duplicate the channel having two identical but using the Filter/Crossover discussed above to create their own START/FINISH working ranges for each unit. This then rather cleverly enables you to develop your Simvibe effects using only the frequencies from the effects that you know work well on each individual unit. So we are splitting the effects across dual units. Similar to how a speaker uses bass/mid driver units mentioned in the previous analogy.

In layman terms you enable the LFE to only operate with the lower end frequencies from the joint effects and with the AP utilise it for the frequencies associated more with the smaller bumps/detail/textures. The first test is important as it enables you to confirm what frequency ranges these and other effects are utilising. Also importantly it lets you determine their cut off range if you do not like/want them operating beyond certain frequency ranges.

So effectively you may have the LFE on something like 20-45Hz and the AP on 45Hz-90HZ. Both units now have approx 50% of the working range as a standard unit has. This way they not only operate with the frequencies they work best with but are doing so much more efficiently. Things like the engine filter with a long range of frequency will in this case start on the LFE and transfer to the AP. You can still have your PUC on their own engine/speed based filter that you prefer.

This should improve the issue you are finding with Dirt as the low engine rumble at slower speeds should in theory be on the LFE allowing the AP to perform in frequencies used for the small bumps all without the limits of using a single unit and losing that small bump detail you want.

I call it "Dual Role" but you need the inuke DSP (or similar amps) to be able to do it and it is to my knowledge an approach nobody else seemingly suggested trying. I have only tested this with Clark TST & Buttkicker so if your willing to try at some point it would be good to hear your feedback if it is successful with the AP.

The PEQ can also be used later as previously mentioned for fine tuning. If for example lets say you determine that the road textures are using 57Hz-63Hz range with the PEQ we can increase only these frequencies strength by a few +db for added boost. Of course not all Simvibe effects are TONE based so cannot be controlled but we can tweak the frequencies we find them using. This may not always be ideal but is a further option.

It is things like this that will enable you to take your tactile performance beyond normal amplifiers limited capabilities and do things Simvibe itself does not offer control of.

Okay well if you made it here thanks, look forward to more chats and sorry that the posts get rather long.

Once again, excellent and very informative interaction Mr Latte; no need for apologies for long reply's at all.

Having the ability to combine units using a single channel is very intriguing to me and I appreciate the way you frame your suggestions with examples - quite helpful.

I'll definitely experiment with these features and see what I can accomplish. I'm sure I'll have questions along the way.

Great stuff! Thanks again.

 

[LogiForce]

Darn, Latte. You're creative as you ever were. Makes me want to experiment again after a loooooong time of not using the gear.

I'll probably need to read through the tread again and update myself with some knowledge. Been way too out of it this past year, and maybe longer.
So ehm... nobody should ask me anything at this stage, even though I still get PM's now and again.

Nothing beats an iNuke DSP amp. They just give that extra bit of 'creative freedom'.

 

[Mr Latte]

Darn, Latte. You're creative as you ever were. Makes me want to experiment again after a loooooong time of not using the gear.

I'll probably need to read through the tread again and update myself with some knowledge. Been way too out of it this past year, and maybe longer.
So ehm... nobody should ask me anything at this stage, even though I still get PM's now and again.

Nothing beats an iNuke DSP amp. They just give that extra bit of 'creative freedom'.

Hello @LogiForce ole friend.

Dust Off That Gear!
Great to see you respond, was missing your help/input in the "Latte Question" thread as RW65 with myself are discussing heavily options for high end Simvibe configurations and performance. Also learning much more about Simvibe. Kinda hard for us as we are not actually using it (I only have a laptop at present) and only did brief usage of it before all my issues and set-backs. Well you know my interest/past with tactile but currently got unfinished business with a cockpit idea and this Simvibe.

Be great if you go through that thread as we get very little info back from actual users currently using Simvibe. @RW65 has been with some help from myself building information/research on it. So many unknowns been properly looked at and nowhere seems to of tried/bothered. Things like which effects are fully multi-directional, are only front rear based and if they are dual mono or stereo in operation.

Whats The Delay?
You covered utilising "delay" as a method to enlarge the sensation of the tactile presence which I think few really took much interest in by not fully understanding its implication. However I think it is something in future I would want to learn more about and test with. Did you ever manage to get much further with it yourself?

I have a plan to get back into this next year, to purchase a new PC and new hardware.

Now that I finally have started building my own cockpit rather than just talking about it.
Combining "Dual Role" method with the best tactile hardware and 4 subwoofers with a build that maintains stereo separation of L/R as best possible and will utilise advanced techniques for tactile installation and isolation.

Adding tactile to a cockpit is one thing.
Building a cockpit specifically to enhance it is another and has been a long-term goal!

Something different than 80/20


Individual L/R Chassis Sections



Simvibe Configuration/Layout
​

---------------------------

More Options & Control
I have discovered a new device also that will enable in-depth analysis of Simvibe channels and effects even far beyond inuke dsp. It is used by audio professionals for both live and studio audio applications. This has many more features and enables full visual representation for up to 16 channels via spectrum analysis. What is great is that it can be controlled by all formats pc/mac/android/ios and even all at once via wifi which is awesome.

Also one simple but neat feature is being able to use its own pre-outs so you have full control of volume for all channels powered with your amplifiers. Using a touch screen via your favourite tablet which is something I have been looking for badly than having to get up and constantly tweak at volume levels on different amps.

Basically with all its potential/features it will enable understanding what frequencies including all textures/effects use and if they are mono/stereo etc. They can even be recorded as a multi-track session for pc/mac and even ipad for further analysis/comparison.

Future Possibilities?
Would be great to get you and others on-board to help out but isn't it about time Simvibe was properly looked at, understood in layman's terms with a full breakdown and in-depth guide of all effects? Covering what they all do, what are mono,stereo, fully directional. How are the frequencies used, which effects have conflicting frequencies, what is the best way to configure it if using 1-8 tactile units. What options in alternative hardware like mentioned here or going beyond the norm using tactile in "Dual Role" or other ways can be considered by the user.

 

[Carson79]

Nice to see you @LogiForce

I have just this minute finished taking apart the rig, wiring up the tactile and amps, reassembled the rig, took it apart again and reassembled again. Then setup simvibe, fiddled with the settings a bit and ran a few laps.
Now that the "shed" is complete and the work to the house is done, this was the first time in many many months I got to try it out again.
I forgot how much fun simvibe was..... and now I don't have to worry about how much noise I make

@Mr Latte must have you down some day mate. The end of the week?

 

[Mr Latte]

Nice going Mr Carson
Fully Operational!

Yes overdue a meet and not been on FB in 6 weeks so not see much of what is going on.
Just PM me whenever suits.

 

[LogiForce]

Hello @LogiForce ole friend.

Dust Off That Gear!
Great to see you respond, was missing your help/input in the "Latte Question" thread as RW65 with myself are discussing heavily options for high end Simvibe configurations and performance. Also learning much more about Simvibe. Kinda hard for us as we are not actually using it (I only have a laptop at present) and only did brief usage of it before all my issues and set-backs. Well you know my interest/past with tactile but currently got unfinished business with a cockpit idea and this Simvibe.

Be great if you go through that thread as we get very little info back from actual users currently using Simvibe. @RW65 has been with some help from myself building information/research on it. So many unknowns been properly looked at and nowhere seems to of tried/bothered. Things like which effects are fully multi-directional, are only front rear based and if they are dual mono or stereo in operation.

Whats The Delay?
You covered utilising "delay" as a method to enlarge the sensation of the tactile presence which I think few really took much interest in by not fully understanding its implication. However I think it is something in future I would want to learn more about and test with. Did you ever manage to get much further with it yourself?

I have a plan to get back into this next year, to purchase a new PC and new hardware.

Now that I finally have started building my own cockpit rather than just talking about it.
Combining "Dual Role" method with the best tactile hardware and 4 subwoofers

​

---------------------------

More Options & Control
I have discovered a new device also that will enable in-depth analysis of Simvibe channels and effects even far beyond inuke dsp. It is used by audio professionals for both live and studio audio applications. This has many more features and enables full visual representation for up to 16 channels via spectrum analysis. What is great is that it can be controlled by all formats pc/mac/android/ios and even all at once via wifi which is awesome.

Also one simple but neat feature is being able to use its own pre-outs so you have full control of volume for all channels powered with your amplifiers. Using a touch screen via your favourite tablet which is something I have been looking for badly than having to get up and constantly tweak at volume levels on different amps.

Basically with all its potential/features it will enable understanding what frequencies including all textures/effects use and if they are mono/stereo etc. They can even be recorded as a multi-track session for pc/mac and even ipad for further analysis/comparison.

Future Possibilities?
Would be great to get you and others on-board to help out but isn't it about time Simvibe was properly looked at, understood in layman's terms with a full breakdown and in-depth guide of all effects? Covering what they all do, what are mono,stereo, fully directional. How are the frequencies used, which effects have conflicting frequencies, what is the best way to configure it if using 1-8 tactile units. What options in alternative hardware like mentioned here or going beyond the norm using tactile in "Dual Role" or other ways can be considered by the user.

Hey Latte,

Sorry for the away. I remember you sending a message and well... life got in between stuff in positive and negative sense.
Never got around to going to @HoiHman his place either, even though I said I would.
I better go there one of these days if he has time, but with the Holidays and such... doubtful.

Talking about Dusting off the gear, that only relates to the tactile. I still use my rig once a month, so it's not completely dusty.
Tactile is still a front & aft setup though with only the miniLFE I got from @HoiHman and the Gamer2 hooked up to the NU1000DSP. So I can't help you much with the multi-directional stuff, and to be honest... I won't expand my rig anytime soon.
Reasons being my car is end-of-life due to someone pooring an acid on the body panels and now it's eaten through. So I am thinking of getting a cheap but good ole BMW 318i e46, and got a few tips from @HoiHman today in regards to that. The second reason is that I have to find a job (even though I am 100% unfit for work) as I have to move due to medical reasons as soon as possible, as the sugar beet processing plant is exhausting sulfer dioxide and I have build up an nasty intollerance for the stuff.

So yeah, helping expanding knowledge... sure. Expanding the setup here, unlikely unfortunately. So I am unsure how far I can help, if I find the time, to aid in this process.
I will go through the thread regardless, but haven't found the time today yet. Maybe later tonight when I'm in bed and have a little peace and quiet.


Delays Delays
Without expanding the setup I wasn't able to get much further, sadly. Berney said to me that it's already build into Simvibe and didn't think adjustability access was needed in Simvibe for it. In my experience though due to placement differences and rig size difference it is something you'd want. Also rigs are made of different materials, and thus have different vibrational speeds. Especially with a mix of materials and depending on how well adjustable joints are connected, the speed of travel of the vibration slows down and fades out.
In other words, Berney can only adjust Simvibe for his rigs available at SimXperience. If you have anything else than you have to adjust it for yourself for your unique application.
Personally I still enjoy using it and fiddling around with it, but again... due to lack of multi-directional sources I am unable to test further and more properly. But even in a front/aft situation and when you drive a vehicle with a long wheel base, once you get it right you really have a sense of size. The front axle is finally not under your feet and the rear axle isn't under your bum anymore.
It's basically the difference in feelings you have when you sit in a Suzuki Alto or in a big BMW 5-serie. The distance between you and the axles as well as the ground movement between axles, just sends vibrations vertically into the chassis and different times. The further away you are in a car seat from the strut towers, the longer it takes for the vibrations to reach your bum/back or even your hands attached to wheel, stick or handbrake.

Luckily I only bought a GTX970 this year and I don't see the need to upgrade my PC in the next 4 years, unless my CPU or motherboard craps out. the CSWv2 is still going strong, as well as the other toys.
My dad still uses my ole T500RS with the Noctua Fan mod, and that still works a treat as well.


Options and the future?
Sounds interesting, but again... no funds available right now. Sucks being a poor guy.
Maybe it's something for the future though, but I think you'll be way ahead of me.

I am sure there are frequencies that conflict, but that's the same in a car. The thing we need to find out is rather how certain vibrations enter a real car and how they alter in frequency and amplitude as they travel down the car to the driver seat. Than do the same research on the rig and compare.
There is possibly knowledge to gain here, but again... every rig is unique and so is every car. So to get consistant information on this might be near impossible. The more information the better though, as long as it's well documented. As you can guess, this is probably an amount of research that is too costly for R&D in a commercial company like SimXperience. Although I am sure they did some research on this already.

Talking about your rig... I still think that tubing looks mad. The "dual role" method is great, but the problem is noise isolation for the neighbours. At least for me and I am sure for others as well, so it's not a method that is for everyone.

Nice to see you @LogiForce

I have just this minute finished taking apart the rig, wiring up the tactile and amps, reassembled the rig, took it apart again and reassembled again. Then setup simvibe, fiddled with the settings a bit and ran a few laps.
Now that the "shed" is complete and the work to the house is done, this was the first time in many many months I got to try it out again.
I forgot how much fun simvibe was..... and now I don't have to worry about how much noise I make

@Mr Latte must have you down some day mate. The end of the week?

Hey Carson, nice to see you again as well. I guess I wasn't the only one busy with other stuff these months. Odd that we choose the same time to get back to it. Well, I'll try to find the time to get back into it is more like it.

Good point of putting the rig in the shed. Heat and sound isolated for the winter and loud subwoofers? Or whatever is left of winter these days at least.
I still need to move out and get a place somewhere. Which won't be easy with all the people coming in from Siria and wherever, while there hardly are any vacant jobs and social housing. Nor any public housing for that matter as most is for purchase. To do that last thing I'd need a job first and there hardly are any.

So yeah, stuck between a rock and a hard place at the moment. Oh well, nothing anyone can do about it. I just have to try and escape the bloody catch22 situation.

 

[Carson79]

I'm sorry to hear of your troubles mate, it does sound like an impossible situation. I hope you find a job that is suitable soon.

Yeah the shed is well insulated, I call it a shed but it's an 18square metre timber framed house with upvc Windows and door lol

 

[LogiForce]

I'm sorry to hear of your troubles mate, it does sound like an impossible situation. I hope you find a job that is suitable soon.

Yeah the shed is well insulated, I call it a shed but it's an 18square metre timber framed house with upvc Windows and door lol

Thanks mate. Will see what the future holds. At least I still have a steady income via the benefits and such, so I can spend some time to find an applicable job to my resume instead of a government agency demanding that I apply to at least 4 vacancies a month even when there are non that apply to me. So no stress there luckily, unlike most unemployed people in this country.

Oh well, that's life I guess. It rarely comes easy.


That's indeed a house. Does it have a doorbell as well? lol
Well, at least you can get a motion rig in there for sure. Or was that the intend already?

 

[Carson79]

Thanks mate. Will see what the future holds. At least I still have a steady income via the benefits and such, so I can spend some time to find an applicable job to my resume instead of a government agency demanding that I apply to at least 4 vacancies a month even when there are non that apply to me. So no stress there luckily, unlike most unemployed people in this country.

Oh well, that's life I guess. It rarely comes easy.


That's indeed a house. Does it have a doorbell as well? lol
Well, at least you can get a motion rig in there for sure. Or was that the intend already?

I actually was looking at wireless doorbells last week lol button for the front door of the house and the bell inside the shed.

No current plans for expanding or upgrading the rig as the shed was quite an expensive project in the end. Even though I did a most of the work myself I did have expert help that saved me around £2000-£3000. I haven't added everything up properly but just off the top off my head to build a shed to my spec it would probably cost around £8k.

The only expanding on the horizon will be to our family, and we are expecting a little package on Valentine's Day
So Im more than happy just enjoying what I've got, which is definitely a lot more than I expected

 

[LogiForce]

I actually was looking at wireless doorbells last week lol button for the front door of the house and the bell inside the shed.

No current plans for expanding or upgrading the rig as the shed was quite an expensive project in the end. Even though I did a most of the work myself I did have expert help that saved me around £2000-£3000. I haven't added everything up properly but just off the top off my head to build a shed to my spec it would probably cost around £8k.

The only expanding on the horizon will be to our family, and we are expecting a little package on Valentine's Day
So Im more than happy just enjoying what I've got, which is definitely a lot more than I expected

Congrats on having hit the bullseye, mate. I hope it will be package of pure joy upon delivery.

Today it will be the first time for me and my girlfriend to go out together again with just the two of us in over two years now. It surely will be a weird feeling leaving the little rascal with his grandfather, as I am sure he will cry from the top of his lungs.

We're going to a concert of K's Choice tonight, which was a birthday present from me to her. She was squealing like a little girl when I asked her if she'd like to go for her birthday, because she wanted to go there ever since the 90's when they were still popular.

We'll make it up to the little guy later this week for leaving him alone with his grandfather.

 

[Mr Latte]

Once again, excellent and very informative interaction Mr Latte; no need for apologies for long reply's at all.

Having the ability to combine units using a single channel is very intriguing to me and I appreciate the way you frame your suggestions with examples - quite helpful.

I'll definitely experiment with these features and see what I can accomplish. I'm sure I'll have questions along the way.

Great stuff! Thanks again.

Look forward to your progress in trialling this.
If doing this approach with the inuke use channel A and channel B (AP and LFE) with some duplication in the start/end frequencies. For example if the LFE is being used for 20-45Hz have the AP start from 40Hz as it may help improve the blend/transitions rather than have an exact start/stop frequency between both.

You want to avoid the AP having too much of the lower frequencies though as you mentioned it was not handling so well too many effects at once. It may be harder to get, good results doing this with the AP as opposed to a TST unit as it is only utilising 50W of limited power with a reduced strength in its potential output. Your the first I have tried to help in doing this combination on EM channels.

Possibly try adjusting the "GAIN db" for the AP to a higher level than the LFE to help it maintain a strong signal with limited amplification and set its wattage limiter to the recommended 50W. You might prefer to keep it low and add more amplification but Im not sure which you would prefer or if a higher signal gain might help with the higher frequency detail effects.

Do be careful though as Simvibe already puts out a high level of gain to ease amplification so applying more again with the inuke might create distortion or be too much with the stronger based effects. I don't think I ever used my AP wth the inuke and Simvibe so I cannot be certain what was an optimal setting or preference.

If you need to boost/control certain frequencies then we can later look into the PEQ feature to do this to improve the detailing in some effects.

Happy Rallying!

 

[Dean Ogurek]

Well done Mr Latte, this should get me started with tuning via the amp.

I've been playing with the filters in SC4 and blending some effects between channels effectively. As you suggested, I've assigned some low rev's with a max threshold to the LFE and that seems to work well at or close to idle RPM.

I look forward to combining units onto one channel using the amp, something I didn't even think was possible a short time ago. I'll add another AP or the TST to my Xmas list.

Again, thank you so much for your help.

Cheers,
Dean

 

[Mr Latte]

No worries Dean, if anything its good to see someone getting more enjoyment from some of the suggested hardware you already have purchased.

I am curious as to how well the AP will work within the "Dual Role" type configuration but as it is more of a speaker based tactile unit (similar to TST units) than a moving piston based one it can respond quicker. It should perform better at doing this role by removing some of the workload it would normally have to do on a typical Simvibe configuration.

Feel free to ask if you run into issues or have other queries.

 

[Zero7159]

Hey guys, I know this thread has been dormant for a while, but I thought I would run a couple of questions by the braintrust here to see if you have any ideas for how I can improve the sound I am getting on the rear of my set up.

Hey guys, I have an Obutto Ozone cockpit and I recently relocated my two Buttkicker Gamer 2 transducers to the front of the cockpit. Here is a picture:



I am getting some nice feedback from the front of my cockpit now. Good upgrade.

I also purchased two Simvibe Buttkicker Mini LFE transducers from Simxperience and am powering them using the iNuke NU 1000 amp, which I picked up from amazon for $150. Here is a picture of how I mounted them:



I have the crossover switch set to full range and the mode switch set to stereo. I am using this cable to connect the amp to the computer:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000068OEP/?tag=gtplanet-20

To connect the shakers to the amp, I purchased a pair of these connectors:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/it...eName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I am using 16 gauge speaker wire that I had sitting around. I suspect that may not be sufficient. I did some googling and now I am thinking I should use 14 gauge wire. See the attached link:

http://www.crutchfield.c.../home/speakers_wire.html

This link says that "Thick wire (12 or 14 gauge) is recommended for long wire runs, high power applications, and low-impedance speakers (4 or 6 ohms)."

I am running all four transducers in chassis mode, using the default settings, with engine vibration turned up almost to the maximum level. I am finding that the feedback from the Mini LFE transducers is OK, but not as strong as I anticipated, even with the volume maxed out on the amplifier.

Any thoughts as to whether I can make any tweaks to get more feedback?

 

[Dean Ogurek]

Hi Zero7159, there may be several reasons for low FB form the rear-mounted transducers but, here are a couple that seem most obvious to me:

1) Note the bracket length on the BKG's, the entire shaker-unit is able to travel and use it's mass to greater effect
2) The rear of your rig is where most of the weight is (seat/body) to have a dampening effect on vibration

Some possible solutions:

1) For the rear units, you could extend the mounting brackets while allowing for some movement of the entire shaker
2) Another possible solution might be to isolate the seat from the frame by utilizing rubber mounts (probably not easy and counter-productive at transmitting vibes from front units)
3) Add a larger shaker/amp setup at the rear (LFE for example)
4) add springs or rubber isolators at the rear of the frame to allow more vibes to be converted into movement

 

[Nick Moxley]

Stupid mini LFE frames is the problem.....if only Guitammer would get off their A** and do a couple production runs of the Gamer 2 Frame by themselves and give the customer's an Option to run Either Gamer 2 or Mini LFE style Frames. The world would be such a more vibrant place. lol Pun intended.

Seriously I tried various mounting styles and locations for my Simulation kit, But In the end the Only way to get an acceptable amount of tactile from what I had already experienced, Was to get the gamer 2 cages.

Now with the proper frames i run the volume at 1/4 to 1/3 where as with the stupid frames, I was at 80-90% with clipping galore and barely any tactile.

 

[Mr Latte]

First I would say to check your wiring that the two units are wired correctly with the Neutrik connectors ensuring one is not out of phase with the other. 12-14 cable is generally better to use for 4 ohms, the lower the number the actual thicker the cable.

As the seat frame itself is rather narrow and with the U-shaped horizontal cross section of the frame being very close to the connection/installation points for each unit. Then the vibrations from these will easily transmit to each L/R side of the frame. This is not ideal and it is possible this is causing cancellation (common with low frequencies) as they are both going into each other.

Many of Simvibe effects seem to operate in MONO so this could attribute to possible cancellation being a factor. Suspension Bumps is one effect that does offer STEREO L/R. You could test a sim with only this effect and use it to see if you feel for example "left curbs" only on the left of the seat or if you are losing stereo imaging as the vibration is indeed traveling into both of the seat support rails.

What I would personally suggest is that you consider a modification that enables you to have L/R independent steel plate that connects to the underside of the seat frame. Then bolt the Mini LFE units to these for direct delivery of the effects into the seat and use perhaps some dampening material under them to help prevent potential metal ringing from the piston impact.

To further help maintain and isolate the vibrations directly into the seat you could apply a wooden/mdf board onto the main cockpit frame. This attached to L/R rows of 3-4 Buttkicker or Clarke T100 rubber isolators as a dampening platform to help sustain vibrations. You dont need to use wood as you can get various anti-vibration materials (see car audio industry). Some tactile will still leak into the frame but you will get much more direct and stronger sensation by restricting where the tactile can flow, it will also ensure you feel better proper directional effects on the representative L/R sides.

This will, however, raise your seat possibly up to 1.5"
5mm steel plate is often okay or slightly thicker.

My drawing skills are immense lol but you should get the idea

Steel plate
Dampening Material
Buttkicker
Row of 3-4 rubber isolators
Dampening material
Steel plate runner (length of seat)
Dampening material


Kinda wish you bought the DSP version of the amp, you could then easily applied an increase to the signal strength via the gain controls and had more control of your units response with the PEQ feature to help minimise the piston bottoming by reducing frequencies below 35Hz whilst still perhaps boosting others.

Anyways hope its worth some consideration.

 

[Zero7159]

Thanks guys, good tips. Changing wiring to 14 gauge did not help and so you have given me some additional ideas.

 

[Mr Latte]

I didnt think the cable would make much difference but it is what is recommended by suppliers.

Can you report back on how "Suspension Effects" are being handled on your cockpit by testing rumble/strips and 2 wheels off track etc.

Curious to help find you a good solution even if the issue is not with cancellation happening. Really any MONO based SIMVIBE effects should feel kinda similar or just as strong with one unit operating as compared to the two if it was a factor. For instance are you getting twice the felt strength or is it a output level issue compared to the front? You indeed do have the amp set correctly in STEREO and are not using the CROSSOVER feature and the amp must auto detect 2/4/8 ohm as it does not offer a switch to set 4ohm your using.

You are not having this issue at the front (with a less powerful Gamer2 amp with 2ohm units) which means we need to confirm its not the PC output levels using the same soundcard or a card with a fault or faulty cable issue. However a quick check to do is swap the front and rear 3.5mm (green/black) jacks to see if you then are having the issue at the front Buttkickers and ensure windows audio properties for levels are set the same for front/rear channels. You may already have been through this so apologies if it seems irrating advice.

Here is an early example of how it seems several of Simvibe's effects operate in a Mono type response across all 4 at same time regardless of L/R wheels and positional kerbs. They tend to represent the general chassis vibrations it seems


Here for comparison is an example of "Suspension Effects" providing proper L/R tactile feedback and a difference from front/rear channels. So if a user wants good directional effects if using other effects like in the first video with high settings. Then its quite possible you can diminish any felt directional sensations. How and what effects are combined can make a big difference to a really good tactile experience or one that is a mess of effects all going on.

Whats better? This is down to what each user wants, for me STEREO TACTILE is a big want and enjoyable feature. For others they may prefer the sensation of all units operating in a MONO fashion and it may feel stronger but SimXperience themselves do not document such things in detail with their descriptions of effects or how the "auto tune" may address such persons preference. With manual tuning you can adapt the software to a more personalised preference but the lack of what each effect really does regards settings. How they could or should be applied with others or what in laymans terms they do is a common question. One that appears on the official forums usually with little guidence given. Something I have boned Mr Villers about several times and he doesnt appear to deal with or take criticism very well. Although aparently a better guide and update may come in future with new features.



Slow the playback speed down to help illustrate each wheels operation over bumps etc.

Others are welcome to offer their own advice and they may have more experience with Simvibe but these are only steps I would do myself in your position.

 

[Zero7159]

I think we are making some progress. I swapped the 3.5 mm cables and hooked up the iNuke NU 1000 to what is commonly referred to as the "green" input on my onboard sound card. I did get more feedback, but it was more dampened, which is understandable given the placement of the Buttkicker Mini LFE transducers on the rear of my seat, whereas the Gamer 2 transducers are up front and far less vulnerable to dampening of the sound. I then swapped the cables back and tested out rear sound effects. I tried cranking up the rear with multiple effects, including Rear Suspension Bump Surges, Rear Suspension Bumps and Rear Suspension Texture, all of which I cranked up to 100. That was a bad idea, as the transducers started to make a clanking noise, although I did definitely feel more pronounced curb effects. I modified the profile to only have Rear Suspension Bump Surges, cranked to 100, and that seems much better, although the curb effects are still rather muted.

 

[Mr Latte]

Good to hear your making progress and thanks for responding.

You didnt quite clarify if your feeling the left wheels on the right of the seat with only "suspension bumps" operating? The point I raise is, if these are not being felt independently and produce distincitive directional felt force where they are supposed to .

Then they will likely feel more muddled and mixed with the other mono effects your using. Also be aware the other non-directional effects will be operating on both the rear channels anyways and with the power of 2 units Vs 1 regards "suspension bumps" effect for just the left or right unit. Simvibe needs a title to support "suspension effects" any title that does not then cannot produce proper directional tactile as it really only seems "suspension effects & textures" are the main ones to support it.

For me personally, I found best immersion of directional effects you WANT them to be felt mainly where they are originating from. This is why if a cockpit can isolate channels better then the user will get the benefits of them having proper directional distinction.

If you want perhaps try a combination of suspension bumps with suspension bump surges and road bumps. I would ensure the suspension bumps gets priority more in the volume/strength for the reason mentioned above and if you want to enjoy these producing their stereo activity.

Textures can be a bit trickier to get a good feeling with as they are not tone generated or as controllable. They feel a little odd on my Clark Tactile but cant state what they are like on others. I would put them lower on the priority list myself. Im with you on having to mess around to find a good balance of effects, spent ages myself taking notes on testing effects 1 at a time and certainly still had much more to learn but have taken a break from it to enjoy actually playing some games recently.

If several are at high volumes or sensitivity then yes with the BKs with high volumes, the piston will likely pang/bottom. You could try to reduce this by lowering the number of effects that use below 35Hz and it would be nice to get your feedback. Oh that includes telling me straight up if Im wrong or you find something different to my own suggestions or opinons.

Everyone will have their own preferences and ways to go about it I suppose but I have discovered with my own configuration the same does not always follow through on other peoples with different tactile hardware and configs.

Up to others if they want to share their own experiences or thoughts.

 

[Mr Latte]

Peoples Views?
Another test for you to try for stereo tactile operation on your cockpit which may surprise you . It is not with using Simvibe yet still can be VERY clear and precise. For a temporary test connect up a pair of your units to your game audio output. Go for setting these for the rear pair at the seat and compare it to using say "suspension effects" in Simvibe for the front channels if you want.

Assetto Corsa
Audio settings, set surfaces to 10 (strongest)

Unlike pCars this game produces very good STEREO kerb effects. I discovered during part of my Simvibe monitoring it also will do something Simvibe wont do. This in relation to many such surfaces people often call painted or flat that have no response in Simvibe due to them having no "physics data" yet you CAN feel and enjoy them with audio-tactile. Imola is a good example of this with the green painted surfaces.

This is one reason my current testing is looking to combine the best of Simvibe effects and Audio-tactile as both can have their own advantages and disadvantages by how they work but for me neither fully betters the other in all cases and circumstances and this is something I may cover more in future. For me I seek the best possible immersion but being able to control it to how I want it is also important.

I would be curious as to what peoples thoughts are from testing such a comparison above comparing the directional effects from kerbs and feeling effects from audio you cant get in Simvibe.

 

[grog]

@Zero7159 Having just changed the way my transducers are mounted I'm very confident in saying that your weaker rear transducers are very likely down to mounting. The BK gamers are likely stronger due to their mounting method and being extended out. When you directly mount the transducers it limits how much they can shake.

My original setup was 4 mini LFE's directly mounted to a 80/20 frame, this setup worked ok not great. My new mounting method is putting the LFE minis at the end of piece of 80/20 that extends out but it doesn't reconnect. This piece has a bit more movement as its extends out 15" or so. This little change made a huge difference, its at least 2-3 times stronger than it was before, I'm quite pleased.

I can post a picture when I get home tonight

Before

After

 

[Mr Latte]

@grog, interesting and nice rig....

I have a query as your first method used the upright mount holes of the mini lfe, the main body of the piston was not in contact with the metal surface below the piston.

All 3 feet can be used to transfer the energy. I think that certainly would make a difference with what you have now. Basically, you had a vertical piston transferring its energy via its slim back metal plate attached horizontally.

Your current application does help transmit the energy better and for the energy to pass through where you want it to be felt with fairly good proximity. Yet I'm curious as it still does nothing however to prevent vibrations traveling through the whole frame and not sustained in the seat/pedals. So I think its possible you could still improve things by reducing the energy that's leaking, help maintain it for longer exactly where you want it. How much better would it be, I can't say but using rubber isolators certainly does help if isolating platforms to strengthen or improve the felt vibrations.

Please don't see this as criticism but sharing experiences as I have tried several installations with my own test builds and helping quite a few others in the last few years. Things have been learned from that. Even my own current temp build when comparing two fullsize LFE mounted in different ways for my seat I discover quite big differences from their energy. So I have things I want to do on my own to improve it in time. My own next build will isolate the pedals and seat accordingly.

BK Gamer Clamp
A proper BK Gamer unit fully grips the metal tube/block it is clamped to. It is not just making contact with one side or surface be it top/bottom but full surrounding contact with that attachment. That I believe is what helps it transfer its tactile very effectively. I'm not so certain it is so much the metal arm or added leverage. None of the Buttkicker range (other than mini units) have such side mounting plate that you first used. They all rely on transferring the energy through the feet or base and recommend being attached vertically even though they will work in horizontal installation.

If you had all feet of the mini lfe getting contact and mounted directly on top/below. This will direct the most energy so have it where you want it to be felt first as its first point of travel. Importantly though if we restrict the platform they are connected too by isolating it as best possible from the rest of the frame then this way you ensure you have:

1) good contact with all feet
2) direct placement for best possible strength
3) dampen slightly with rubber type cushioning to avoid metal pinging
4) isolated platform maintains better/longer the energy by greatly reducing the tactile leaking

Tactile is just like water, it will fill and it will flow. Therefore we can direct this flow and restrict how or where it may go.