Smarter AI

  • Thread starter cletus 669
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Dravonic
If you want something like that you're looking at the wrong place. Online is what you're looking for :)
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Except online gets out of hand very quickly and I feel, quite honestly, that offline could be way better with smarter, more agressive, AI that pays you back for your mistakes or agressive driving. Not that I want every race to be a slugfest but something more than just holding the exact same line every lap, something in the middle would be fine with me. A more intence race offline is "What I am looking for", not dealing with all the damn punters online!
 
Dravonic
If you want something like that you're looking at the wrong place. Online is what you're looking for :)
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That type of competition and intensity (minus the punting) is what im looking for and GT5 is the right place.
 
cletus 669
Except online gets out of hand very quickly and I feel, quite honestly, that offline could be way better with smarter, more agressive, AI that pays you back for your mistakes or agressive driving. Not that I want every race to be a slugfest but something more than just holding the exact same line every lap, something in the middle would be fine with me. A more intence race offline is "What I am looking for", not dealing with all the damn punters online!
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You just need to race with the right people. I regularly race in TPRA events held at the official NA playstation forums. Racing there is intense and clean. You will see that kind of thing and a lot more over there. I also know that GTP hosts GT5P racing events but I never raced with people here so I can't tell. I imagine it should be the same though.

Soprano 3 1 3
That type of competition and intensity (minus the punting) is what im looking for and GT5 is the right place.
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Well I can't argue with that. GT5 should be the right place, online or offline. I know you can find it online (if you know where to look) and we can only hope it will be found offline too.
 
QuantumReaction
about this whole Porsche vs vette thing:

Cant we all agree that they were both slightly at fault and only one of them was going to win?
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Sure, that is the essence of "racing".

Soprano 3 1 3
That type of competition and intensity (minus the punting) is what im looking for and GT5 is the right place.
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Combined with adrenalin and the desire to win, limits get pushed and things like that happen.

That might be too much to ask of AI. But it should be possible to get a lot closer now than it has been in the past.
 
The Forza 3 bots might be along the lines of what you guys are looking for. The FM2 bots were a little crash happy. I was rear ended routinely, and often very hard, by the bots when I fired up some quick races for photoshoots with my livery cars. It did seem like the F3 bots would bang you around about the same amount, although they would overbrake terribly around turns, which caused me to rear end them a lot!

Frankly, I'm pretty happy with the Prologue bots, and it does seem that a little more personality and a bit more attitude was coded into the latest GT5 builds. I don't know about perfect, but I have a feeling I'll be happy with them.
 
The new video, from the Tokyo Motor Show, with the chick driving shows the AI bumping her after she bumps it. This could be evidence of exactly what the OP is looking for.
 
Pierced Lead
I don't think it pushed her intentionally, rather in attempting to get back on the racing line it hit her in the process.
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Well, that's the point of the differences between a smart AI and a poor AI.
A smart AI would never go back to the racing line immediately, it shall "wait" until he can go back to the line when it is free again - either by passing the car or being passed by the other car, but not by pushing the car.
It should be like any real race driver - a real driver would wait until the line is free before going back.
The AI shall not put the race-line on top of clean racing !!!
A good AI should fight the passing car side-by-side without touching it (unless the human driver moved from his line) and continue racing until places changed.
 
I thought the AI behaved very good. For example, she messes up and the AI goes way off the racing line to avoid contact and pass her cleanly. Then the yellow AI car does rub her a little bit, but it waits until it has cleared her completely to pull over in front of her. It didnt just smash her. It gave her some pay back, then cleared her, and then pulled in front of her.

That is two examples in a one minute span that shows the AI has some 'self' control.
 
IsmokeGT
I thought the AI behaved very good. For example, she messes up and the AI goes way off the racing line to avoid contact and pass her cleanly. Then the yellow AI car does rub her a little bit, but it waits until it has cleared her completely to pull over in front of her. It didnt just smash her. It gave her some pay back, then cleared her, and then pulled in front of her.

That is two examples in a one minute span that shows the AI has some 'self' control.
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I'm not convinced she was on the right line when cornering though, think she ran wide into the corner.
 
ST-2
I'm not convinced she was on the right line when cornering though, I think she ran wide into the corner.
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You are right, she went wide. But the yellow AI car took evasive action to not hit her after she hits the wall, this is at 1:00 into the video. The yellow AI car is a full lane on the inside of the blue racing line.

(all speculation on my behalf 👍)

off topic- Juan Pablo Montoya, aka JPM, is the baddest dude in NASCAR.
 
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Yeah, but my point is, if she ran wide, then the AI was just following the programed line and thus if she had been on the correct line to start with, the AI would have probably ran ino her. Again, just speculation here.
 
But if you watch the other AI cars, they dont take the same line as the yellow car.She is on the racing line when she gets passed.
 
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IsmokeGT
But if you watch the other AI cars, they dont take the same line as the yellow car.She is on the racing line when she gets passed.
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Ismoke is right. The yellow car is way offline when he makes the first pass. On the second pass, the car BARELY nudges her, and then pulls in front AFTER he is clear. GREAT move by the AI, and a HUGE improvement over GT5P...
 
RedSuinit
Ismoke is right. The yellow car is way offline when he makes the first pass. On the second pass, the car BARELY nudges her, and then pulls in front AFTER he is clear. GREAT move by the AI, and a HUGE improvement over GT5P...
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Good to see the AI being improved *crosses off checklist*
 
One of the advantage PD has when developing GT5 is the Cell processor on the PS3 but specifically the SPU (SPE?). While I'm not going to pretend that I remotely understand the complexities in programming/developing and implementing the AI in a game (I am after all a high school dropout), but in a nutshell SPU basically takes the load of the main PPU therefore leaving it to do the more crucial task. In most racing game you have the physics engine that refreshes at a certain rate. For example Forza 2 and 3 runs at 360hz (PD has never given a number). I would assume that for most part the physics and the AI share the same thread since the AI cars are govern by the same physics. The added instruction would be as to how the AIs behave and react. In most cases because of the multi-threading, the refresh rate for the physics would have to be reduced to accomodate the other calculations.

For example SHIFT has a core physics of 400hz. But it's also known that AI and physics thread run at much lower 125hz. By the way, SHIFT has a max of 15 AI cars (16 car grid). It's also pretty clear that one of the reason Turn 10 decides to go with a lower grid size (8) is in order to maintain the higher refresh rate for the physics engine. Of course, Slightly Mad Studios (SHIFT's developer) was developing for all three platforms and didn't quite use the PS3 to its potential. While Turn 10 did a splendid job with Forza 3, the 360 simpler CPU achitecture didn't allow for such flexibilty.

While it would be presumptious to expect GT5 have a higher physics refresh rate (360hz) and a good AI simply because in theory the Cell processor would allow for such implementation, it wouldn't be wrong to assume that it is the route that almost any good PS3 developer would be shooting for. Still, one still has to rememeber that there is no such thing as a perfectly designed Artificial Intelligence. If that was the case, our lives would be run by machines and that while BMW has a car that drives itself, it has yet to navigate through traffic. So the occasional hit from the back and a few taps form the AI cars are inherently due to the fact that we have yet to design an AI that could perform instinctually or perfectly through a learned behaviour which are the two things that usually dictate our behaviour on the road.
 
I think people give too little credit to GT5P's AI. If you think it's bad I invite you to play GT4. Now, that's bad. It looks like the AI has no idea whatsoever where you are and will hit you if you dare race in it's line.

GT5P's on the other hand is a lot better. It will brake early if you do, avoid you, overtake only in safe places, overtake other AI drivers. It's a lot better than GT4's but people somehow still put the two in the same level. The only situations I've been hit by GT5P's AI is when I'm stopped in the road, racing in the wrong way, brake late for a corner or turn into an AI car. In other words, I've only been hit when I was doing something wrong.
 
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Dravonic
I think people give too little credit to GT5P's AI. If you think it's bad I invite you to play GT4. Now, that's bad. It looks like the AI has no idea whatsoever where you are and will hit you if you dare race in it's line.

GT5P's on the other hand is a lot better. It will brake early if you do, avoid you, overtake only in safe places, overtake other AI drivers. It's a lot better than GT4's but people somehow still put the two in the same level. The only situations I've been hit by GT5P's AI is when I'm stopped in the road, racing in the wrong way, brake late for a corner or turn into an AI car. In other words, I've only been hit when I as doing something wrong.
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I agree with you, but from most of the video's I have seen, the AI is improving over what we have in GT5:P, and IMO, we are seeing a significant improvement yet again.

All I have to say is go PD! Keep improving that AI, and keep making our racing experience even better! W00T!
 
Dravonic
I think people give too little credit to GT5P's AI. If you think it's bad I invite you to play GT4. Now, that's bad. It looks like the AI has no idea whatsoever where you are and will hit you if you dare race in it's line.
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GT4's AI typically has no idea what it is driving. From what I've seen of GT5:P, it at least doesn't suffer from that problem.
 
I have to say that AI drives better than most of online players(if nothing has changed since my last online race)
 
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Although I do agree that the AI has been improved I think that still has a long way until it will be good (note that I'm not saying "perfect", good will be fine for me).
In GT games history and also in GT5P it always looks like the AI is pre-programmed the line in should drive no matter what is happening on the road currently. If you take the same race over & over you will notice that each car (if are the same as the previous race) will most probably drive at the exact same line as the previous race, it will brake at the same places and will make the same "mistakes" (those are not real mistakes since it's pre-programmed) at the same spot each race.
I'm a programmer my self (as my job) and although I'm not in the AI area (some people do) I do know the principles of how a GOOD AI should be.

First, the AI shall not be programmed with the correct line. It should be programmed with the "road", and with pre-defined parameters :
1) How "experienced" is the AI
2) How "smart" it is
3) How "fast" it is (like hand/legs movement)
4) How "concentrated" in the game (for making mistakes from time to time)
5) etc.
If you will notice those parameters are kind of similar to a human driver.
Those parameters should be input parameters to the AI engine, plus the current location of the driver and other cars, and some other parameters (how many laps, day/night...), the algorithm is basically need to program the driver's next step is make the move.
Of course the engine must include a random engine since the actions shall not be always exactly the same each lap (just like real life drivers - either F1 or Nascar or any other kind).

For me, a good AI means that if I'm looking at a race replay it will be hard for me to distinguish between a human driver and a AI driver (of course - assuming they are on the "same level").

To conclude this - a GOOD AI doesn't mean it drives fast, on the correct line or that it's hard to be passed, it does mean that it drives similar to a human driver.
 
Dravonic
I think people give too little credit to GT5P's AI. If you think it's bad I invite you to play GT4. Now, that's bad. It looks like the AI has no idea whatsoever where you are and will hit you if you dare race in it's line.

GT5P's on the other hand is a lot better. It will brake early if you do, avoid you, overtake only in safe places, overtake other AI drivers. It's a lot better than GT4's but people somehow still put the two in the same level. The only situations I've been hit by GT5P's AI is when I'm stopped in the road, racing in the wrong way, brake late for a corner or turn into an AI car. In other words, I've only been hit when I was doing something wrong.
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Try this in GT5P: Race on Daytona Speedway with a car that is a bit slower on the straights than the best AI cars. I have been hit regularly while going flat out in a straight line down the back-straight. It seems like the AI is not entirely aware of how wide its car really is, so it doesn't move out of your slipstream enough and plows right into your left rear.

Fuji braking zone turn 1. AI drives into you when you brake early.
 
Toronado
GT4's AI typically has no idea what it is driving. From what I've seen of GT5:P, it at least doesn't suffer from that problem.
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Sorry, but the GT5P AI still is not able to drive certain cars properly. Especially the Lotus Elise seems to be a problem for it. There's even some corners where the AI crashes EVERY time with the Elise. E.g. London, first hairpin.

Saying that, this might not necessarily be a fault in the AI code, but in the parameter-input it gets for the car it is driving. These parameters essentially tell the AI what the car is capable of, and if they tell it that it could break later, or go into corners much faster than actually possible, it will go off with annoying regularity.

On the other hand, if the set of parameters doesn't allow for a description of the car's behaviour that is refined enough, then you might be looking at a conceptual problem nonetheless.

Be it as it may, I'm convinced we'll see something greatly improved in GT5.
 
Its going to make races on New York and London really easy if the AI crashes at the first corner, think... we now have damage! :nervous:
 

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