So George... Where's Osama? Hmm?

  • Thread starter milefile
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Originally posted by danoff
Wrong.

We had the backing of a decade of UN sactions and resolutions for action against Iraq. Last time Iraq acted up it was up to us because the UN was too cheap to handle it. This time is no different. They say that they don't like iraq and that iraq should quit but then don't want to enforce. The US doesn't work like that. We mean what we say.

aaaaaand we do have proof that Saddam had WMD's and used them against his own people. That proves that he had them to me.
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danoff....the one concept you have to understand is that there is no 'we' and 'them' when it comes to the UN....youre talking as if you are at war with the UN...the US is a founding member of this organisation and a influential part of it....you ARE the UN....we are all together in this one...

it just takes a little co-operation on all sides to make it work...

also the above proof that you stated about WMD...that was 15 years ago....we are talking now why america couldnt wait a couple of more months until the UN finished its inpection....they were convinced that the weapons were there at that time (Apr2003) and an attack against the west was imminent....clearly not the case.
 
Originally posted by TurboSmoke


and all this beacuse America was scared of another 9/11...
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I can't find anything wrong with being scared of another September the Eleventh. Whatever needs to be done to prevent that should be done. The problem is that Saddam's Iraq did not provide the gravest threat of another September the Eleventh. There are greater threats.

Danoff cites the twelve years of UN reolutions and bla bla bla. Fine. Nobody argues that Saddam had to go. But I argue that the timing was all off. We probably would've had to do it with the same, limited coalition even if we waited another five or ten years. Meanwhile, a greater threat to American security lingers: Al Qaida. Iraq has become a money pit for an already strapped America, so much so that another very important thing is being neglected: Al Qaida; the fact that our occupation of Iraq has only pissed off every extremist Muslim in the world, and tipped those who were on the fence to the less prefered side, seriously exacerbates the problem Bush says he was solving by attacking Iraq. Just because something needs to be done does not necessarily mean it needs to be done right now.

The SNAFU going on in Iraq right now is especially bad due to the fact that it is being carried out by an administration who criticized, as part of it's campaign, the lack of clear and planned exit strategies in military operations. So when Rumsfeld or Bush are asked, "how much longer?', and they answer "as long as it takes", somebody ought to remind them of how they promised this would not be a protracted occupation riddled with terrorist strikes, geurilla warfare, and $87,000,000,000 of our money.
 
What we need is a strong ally in the area. Perhaps people freed from a brutal dictator. Bush's plan is much more long term. He broke up Al Queda and the Taliban and then tried to find a way to make the area more (that's right more) US friendly. The way to do that is to do some people a favor.

It's a very long term strategy and will probably not pay off until the president after Bush has left office.
 
Originally posted by milefile
I the fact that our occupation of Iraq has only pissed off every extremist Muslim in the world.
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mf, i agree with your entire post...except this part....

Muslims dont get 'pissed off' thats an american term....but they do feel angered, violated, alienated and wronged....and its not just the extremist.....watch out for that assumtion...its not just the extremists my friend....

i was talking to a Lybian student on Friday...he's not an extremist and he's from an African Islamic nation and didnt care much for Iraq....but the occupation force is viewed as an insult to the entire Arabic population of the world...
 
and tipped those who were on the fence to the less prefered side
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I'd hoped this part would balance the statement.

I sincerely hope this operation in Iraq has a positive outcome in a reasonable amount of time. If not matters have only been made worse.
 
Originally posted by TurboSmoke
mf, i agree with your entire post...except this part....

Muslims dont get 'pissed off' thats an american term....but they do feel angered, violated, alienated and wronged....and its not just the extremist.....watch out for that assumtion...its not just the extremists my friend....

i was talking to a Lybian student on Friday...he's not an extremist and he's from an African Islamic nation and didnt care much for Iraq....but the occupation force is viewed as an insult to the entire Arabic population of the world...
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And how does this Lybian student feel about our forces in Afghanistan? How about our forces in Iraq under the last President Bush? How does he feel about Sadaam killing thousands of his fellow muslims?
As MF said..Sending our forces to Iraq needed to happen sooner or later. Later would have been preferred. For them to be (pissed off) or as they put it "angered" at us for what they should see as something that hopefully will turn out benificial in the long run to everyone concerned is very short sighted of them.
The U.S. isn't out to wipe out the Arab or the Muslim world but to wipe out terrorist which happen to be at this moment Muslim radicals living mostly in the Arab countries that harbor them and finance them. They are the ones making this about us vs. them not the other way around.

Also as MF said.."I sincerely hope this operation in Iraq has a positive outcome in a reasonable amount of time." I think we all hope that. In the mean time why don't they try working with us to get this done with so we can get out of there instead of getting angered at us?
 
Originally posted by DGB454

Also as MF said.."I sincerely hope this operation in Iraq has a positive outcome in a reasonable amount of time." I think we all hope that. In the mean time why don't they try working with us to get this done with so we can get out of there instead of getting angered at us?
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hey look...i am British, born and bred...i dont understand what goes on in the minds of miltant extremists...the guy put forward a point of view i could never have done myself because it was his true feelings in a matter no white British or American can understand...

the above quote is a rational and understandable solution to the current problem....as long as we are the ones doing the oppressing...
you dont think rationally when a large country bombs the hell out of you, cut off gas, power and water and refuses to put it back....sure there are a few sabateurs but with americas millions that shouldnt be a problem....just think of the huge rewards they will get at the end of it....all that oil to yourselves...
 
the above quote is a rational and understandable solution to the current problem....as long as we are the ones doing the oppressing...
you dont think rationally when a large country bombs the hell out of you, cut off gas, power and water and refuses to put it back....sure there are a few sabateurs but with americas millions that shouldnt be a problem....
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Rationally when a large country bombs the hell out of me I’ll be pissed… at least as long as I’m not being oppressed by a dictator that practically begged the country to bomb me through years a defiance of cease fire terms and UN sanctions.

What POSSIBLE reason would we have for dragging our heals putting power and water back. We are spending tons of money trying to get Iraq back on its feet, you give us a few weeks to do it and then claim that we’re hurting the Iraqis because we’re like that.
 
i think oil is a big factor but not the main reason for spending the money.. if the forces left iraq now theb it would be a mistake regardless if u agree about the war in the first place.if we just up and left saddam would be back in a matter of weeks.. ( which if u think about may be a good way to catch him ??? ) just a thought...
 
Originally posted by jay wilkie
i know i sort of contradicted myself there but there is SO many different ways you can view this
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yes Jay, youre right....

Originally posted by milefile
No. This is wrong.
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milefile, i credited you with some intellegence....

why do you think the US didnt attack Mugabe instead...he is much worse than Saddam

all i have heard here is that Saddam was horrible to his people..what about Mugabe??....and dont start about being a threat to the US, Iraq was no threat immediately before the war...

its about oil, if you never believe a word i say, then at least believe this my friend...the Iraq war has many hidden agendas, the US doesnt even pretend to claim its about liberation of Iraq or the minimisation of a threat from Iraq...its about oil primarily, and if they appear to be the liberators and the good guys in the process then thats an added bonus...

to me, a bigger threat comes from N Korea...but alas, no oil or other resource that can be plundered to feed our war machines...
 
Originally posted by TurboSmoke
yes Jay, youre right....



milefile, i credited you with some intellegence....

why do you think the US didnt attack Mugabe instead...he is much worse than Saddam

all i have heard here is that Saddam was horrible to his people..what about Mugabe??....and dont start about being a threat to the US, Iraq was no threat immediately before the war...

its about oil, if you never believe a word i say, then at least believe this my friend...the Iraq war has many hidden agendas, the US doesnt even pretend to claim its about liberation of Iraq or the minimisation of a threat from Iraq...its about oil primarily, and if they appear to be the liberators and the good guys in the process then thats an added bonus...

to me, a bigger threat comes from N Korea...but alas, no oil or other resource that can be plundered to feed our war machines...
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I never said oil had nothing to do with the war. It is no great insight to know that the most important finite resource on earth simply had to have played a role. What I said is wrong is this:
just think of the huge rewards they will get at the end of it....all that oil to yourselves...
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Can't you see the difference?
 
Originally posted by milefile
I never said oil had nothing to do with the war. It is no great insight to know that the most important finite resource on earth simply had to have played a role. What I said is wrong is this:

Can't you see the difference?
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who do you plan on sharing the oil with?
 
to me, a bigger threat comes from N Korea...but alas, no oil or other resource that can be plundered to feed our war machines...
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I’ll have to reiterate a point I’ve made many times. North Korea is a bigger threat and much different diplomatically. We haven’t had 12 years of UN sanctions against them. We don’t have a recent set of cease fire terms against them, and last but definitely not least, there is good reason to believe that the rest of the world will actually be willing to lift a finger to do something about North Korea BECAUSE…

NO OIL.

What has france got to loose? They aren’t getting oil in huge quantities from North Korea!... also because a lot of countries over there actually care about their own safety and don’t expect America to bail them out.

Iraq wasn’t about oil. It was about terrorism and liberating a nation to help us combat terrorist sentiments.


I'm sick of pointing out the difference between North Korea and Iraq. It's hard to believe the only difference people see is oil.
 
as i said before there are many ways each individual can look at this.. one thing i think everyone here would agree with is that the war against terror is well over due.. no matter how you think it should be done i think we all have that opinion.. who knows what the perfect answer is?
How do we beat terrorism?

there are about a million different answers to this question.

Bush may have his interests that you say is oil but at least he has finally taken action against terrorism, you can't just keep giving warning after warning and tippy tappying about with people like saddam.
as for mugabe, he's got his coming and it will probably be from one of his own people..
 
Originally posted by danoff

I'm sick of pointing out the difference between North Korea and Iraq. It's hard to believe the only difference people see is oil.
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👍

After about seven months in the oil industry, I've found that people often run their mouths off without knowing a damn thing about it. People who actually think Iraq was about oil singly are misinformed, certainly; ignorant, probably; and incompetently stupid, most likely.
 
Originally posted by M5Power
👍

After about seven months in the oil industry, I've found that people often run their mouths off without knowing a damn thing about it. People who actually think Iraq was about oil singly are misinformed, certainly; ignorant, probably; and incompetently stupid, most likely.
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okay then M5...lets hear your brilliant explanation on why America botched the Iraq affair....

this should be good...
 
ok listen M5 , i for one don't think the war was only about oil and i guess you don't either by the way you said " oil singly".. but one thing i don't understand is just because you have worked in the oil industry for seven months that surely doesn't give you inside info on what governments are thinking about.. i mean did george bush tell every employee in the oil indusrty , " listen team just want to tell you what i'm planning here"

come on you guys would be the last to find out..
 
Originally posted by jay wilkie
ok listen M5 , i for one don't think the war was only about oil and i guess you don't either by the way you said " oil singly".. but one thing i don't understand is just because you have worked in the oil industry for seven months that surely doesn't give you inside info on what governments are thinking about.. i mean did george bush tell every employee in the oil indusrty , " listen team just want to tell you what i'm planning here"

come on you guys would be the last to find out..
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well said Jay.....

i dont know why M5 is so worked up...i mean no one here said the war was singularly about oil....but it was a major factor which cannot be over looked...

the america govt wouldnt have told anyone in the oil industry for fear of a leak (excuse the pun)
 
maybe M5 can inform us "incompetently stupid" civilians about whats also going on with the CIA scandal and the white house at the moment cause ...hey... after all he's inthe OIL INDUSTRY... Wooooooooo
doesn't people realize how "ignorant" and "misinformed " THEY sound when they speak this way?
 
Originally posted by jay wilkie
maybe M5 can inform us "incompetently stupid" civilians about whats also going on with the CIA scandal and the white house at the moment cause ...hey... after all he's inthe OIL INDUSTRY... Wooooooooo
doesn't people realize how "ignorant" and "misinformed " THEY sound when they speak this way?
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you got a point man...

when people spout on about thier jobs and start saying that they are witness to privilidged information that the rest of us arent, i just switch off and let them rumble on under the steam of thier own self importance....

IIIIIFFFF he was the executive director of the biggest oil company in the world and said that he had a vague feeling that something was gonna happen...i might have believed it...otherwise i have to say that i dont buy a word of it...
 
I think all that can be inferred from Doug's mentioning he is in the oil industry is that he has an understanding of the resource, economically and politically, that we don't have, and with that understanding, he is more able to draw logical conclusions with the available information than either of you. There is nothing hard to believe about that.
 

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