Sound Update (PD is now hiring! + Email!)Answered 

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They'll already have been doing it, "for the last few years". Content production is not the issue here.

So when you say they've been doing it for years, following the article , you're saying they have the break through now but the issue at hand here is perfecting the method?
 
So when you say they've been doing it for years, following the article , you're saying they have the break through now but the issue at hand here is perfecting the method?
I think they have a working method, yes. I don't think it runs on PS3, fully. That implies they will have been making "patches" (presets) for each car to feed into that method; that's the "content" side of it. I think they've been working on that content since before GT5P, along with the new method outright.

There's also the exhaust sounds of the Red Bull and Senna cars. They are incredibly expressive in regards to control inputs (much more than any sample scheme I've ever heard), and they are the only cars that sound massively different in the data logger. Additionally, I can personally hear a few "signature" signs of specific techniques. That is undoubtedly a limited version of the new method (tuned on the side of exaggeration to compensate for the missing parts).


The "breakthrough" is probably getting that to work for engine and intake sounds, too (the missing parts), and to be able to switch between "channels" (each source, coming from each car) in order to reduce complexity despite the extra detail. That latter part, I think, is related to the sound drop-out issues people are having.

I also think this is all tied into the "course maker" (and Ronda), in that large, open, dynamic environments need a different way of setting up the geometry prior to rendering it, versus normal fixed circuits (which are just "tunnels", more or less). That geometry set-up competes for resources with sound, both using the SPUs - the SPUs are notoriously difficult to schedule parallel tasks on. Therefore, any changes in the one affects the other; I think they're waiting to introduce both together. :D
 
I think the main problem is that they've simply ran out of memory and CPU power, having spent all of it in other areas. Even within the PS3 installments they've downgraded the sounds over time - Prologue had a pronounced wind sound and you could easily tell when you were drafting. The audio and even physics feedback for this got completely removed in GT5/6, the wind noise is gone and the instability that happens when you get hit by air when you decide to overtake a car is gone too. Hopefully they bring it back for GT7, the dedicated audio chip also gives us hope that they will make some major improvements. I don't expect GT to ever catch up with Forza at this point, but they still have a chance to make competent audio that at least will be pleasant to hear rather than cause players to turn the engine noises off completely.
 
Ummm,
the dynapck (or pretty much every other) dyno is able to simulate all of that..?

They have a setting called a "Ramp Rate" which is able to restrict how fast or slow the engine can accelerate.
So they can take multiple passes at different ramp rates to simulate any load conditions they wish.

the only small issue they face is that they don't allow a vehicle to accelerate at it's natural rate.
Some parts of the rev-range it will accelerate faster (peak torque) and other areas it will accelerate slower.
But it's teh same a putting a slight incline or decline on a piece of road.

Yeah actually after I posted that I was reading about the dynapack on their site and came across that info. That's cool tech. I wonder if it is in use by the folks at PD?
 
I think the main problem is that they've simply ran out of memory and CPU power, having spent all of it in other areas. Even within the PS3 installments they've downgraded the sounds over time - Prologue had a pronounced wind sound and you could easily tell when you were drafting. The audio and even physics feedback for this got completely removed in GT5/6, the wind noise is gone and the instability that happens when you get hit by air when you decide to overtake a car is gone too. Hopefully they bring it back for GT7, the dedicated audio chip also gives us hope that they will make some major improvements. I don't expect GT to ever catch up with Forza at this point, but they still have a chance to make competent audio that at least will be pleasant to hear rather than cause players to turn the engine noises off completely.

One can only hope. By that time though, FM6 would probably plummet them in every department, the pace at which they're moving forward.

They could have reproduced exceptional audio on the PS3 - it has more powerful hardware than the X360, yet we saw phenomenal sounds in FM4 and 3. Comes down to programming and using your resources wisely. Unfortunately, PD's been so obsessed with car and track count, they probably though nobody would notice the mediocre sounds....

And now that people are raising their voices (we all should in any way, shape or form we can), it looks like Kaz is taking notice.

Good engine sounds are as vital as eye-pleasing visuals and believable physics. Take any of the three out, and it's like having a nice model of the McLaren P1 sitting in your studio, but one that is just for show, not drivable. *T10 did that during or after releasing FM5*

If PD can go to lengths to have great visuals and good physics, they can certainly make sound a priority. They just need to invest in some nice dev tools and get to work!
 
I don't expect part 3 answering the question yet. It looks like there's more story to cover and everything won't fit into 400-ish words post should they continue hovering around that length. I predict 5 or more parts.(and outrage for part 3 not answering the question)

Maybe they published it this way because of people complaints - it might've been originally planned to write/translate everything before posting.

"Just give them something" type of thing.

There's also a possibility that the delay will result in a longer publication covering all of it but I'm not counting on that.
 
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Yeah actually after I posted that I was reading about the dynapack on their site and came across that info. That's cool tech. I wonder if it is in use by the folks at PD?
They would just use the steady-state mode, if they were recording for samples. The load is absorbed by the computer-controlled hydraulic circuits in the dynapacks themselves, so they could in theory program in any profile they wanted.

It's unlikely they were able to do that for every single car, though.
 
Why can't PD do this? This is how Black Box did sounds for their underrated game, Need for Speed The Run (2011).





(this video talks about the voices and such but has a bit about skids at the end)

 
Why can't PD do this? This is how Black Box did sounds for their underrated game, Need for Speed The Run (2011).





(this video talks about the voices and such but has a bit about skids at the end)


"Hyper-real", "visceral", "we took liberties". Hm.

The loudness wars are coming! Yay.

Notice how recording is less than half of the work, by the way, as important as it is. You can get that step perfect (and it is the "oldest" and most established part of the whole process), but if the rest of the workflow is poorly done, then you get poor results anyway.
They were recording for artistic effect at times, too, so they were stuck with those decisions for the rest of the processing. Great for the aesthetic target of a given game, but not great for reuse / as a reference. Also not great for absolute fidelity, if that's your aim.

By the way, it's no secret what they do. It's that granular resynthesis Chippy described a while back, something like this, which is admittedly a touch crude.

PD seem to have invested in something completely different altogether.
 
I'm honestly surprised they're the first to take a surround-sound recording of the interior. SMS didn't think it was worth the effort. I think it's a no-brainer.

Still, naïve reproduction of recordings doesn't have much "iteration" left in it; it might more properly be seen as something of a swan-song, potentially. ;)
 
They've also had 4 years to record just 50 cars. Even with just premiums GT has like almost 8 times that amount.

And that's where the approach is wrong; quantity over quality. It's almost always the other way around. Do you remember the original "The Need for Speed" bac in 93' (I think)? That had only 7 or 8 cars, and each of them had accurate engine sounds.

I would any day, and I mean ANY day take a significantly lower car count, as long as ALL of them have been modeled accurately to real life specs - that includes, you guessed it, how they sound.

Its games like GT that set a bit of a bad example by giving gamers quantity over quality. T10 followed suit. Even in FM4, you have a handful of cars that do not sound right (though ironically they don't sound like weak home appliances).

This is exactly what happens when devs get caught in the car count wars. It's fine to have a generous amount of tracks, but I do not understand the need for having such a ridiculously high car count.

I say start slow, get all characteristics right. Then add more cars. That seems to be the most logical way of going about it.

I'm honestly surprised they're the first to take a surround-sound recording of the interior. SMS didn't think it was worth the effort. I think it's a no-brainer.

Still, naïve reproduction of recordings doesn't have much "iteration" left in it; it might more properly be seen as something of a swan-song, potentially. ;)

I'm telling you this is going to pay big time. I would not be surprised if DC plummets all console driving games and sims in terms of engine sounds. Their preview vids speak for themselves.

Impressive to say the least. Thank God Evolution Studios understand how crucial an element sound is. Why can't other devs follow suit?
 
Impressive to say the least. Thank God Evolution Studios understand how crucial an element sound is. Why can't other devs follow suit?
Because lots of people will bitch and cry if GT7 launches with just 10 cars that sound perfect. ;)
It's always a game of trade-offs, DC uses mostly fresh new cars that can be easily obtained in a local dealership, Forza and GT pack a lot of rare and old cars that are scattered all across the world, it's already hard as is. I think Forza does a very competent job at sounds. It's easy to wave DC around when it has double the dev time that T10 has and only a fraction of content. Forza is easily our best bet when it comes to quality vs quantity.
 
And that's where the approach is wrong; quantity over quality. It's almost always the other way around. Do you remember the original "The Need for Speed" bac in 93' (I think)? That had only 7 or 8 cars, and each of them had accurate engine sounds.

I would any day, and I mean ANY day take a significantly lower car count, as long as ALL of them have been modeled accurately to real life specs - that includes, you guessed it, how they sound.

Its games like GT that set a bit of a bad example by giving gamers quantity over quality. T10 followed suit. Even in FM4, you have a handful of cars that do not sound right (though ironically they don't sound like weak home appliances).

This is exactly what happens when devs get caught in the car count wars. It's fine to have a generous amount of tracks, but I do not understand the need for having such a ridiculously high car count.

I say start slow, get all characteristics right. Then add more cars. That seems to be the most logical way of going about it.

The evidence suggests that car count is not the issue, rather technical limitations. You can't use other dev teams' work as a yard stick to judge what PD has been doing, because they've done something very different - something that is less sensitive to the issue of scope in the first place.

I'm telling you this is going to pay big time. I would not be surprised if DC plummets all console driving games and sims in terms of engine sounds. Their preview vids speak for themselves.

Impressive to say the least. Thank God Evolution Studios understand how crucial an element sound is. Why can't other devs follow suit?

It's better that different devs follow their own design focus. The last thing we need is a market full of copy-cats. If sound is Drive Club's strong suit, that's great. You can bet it will lack in other areas, for certain tastes. Compromise.
 
@SimTourist Forza's sounds are some of the best in business today, no doubt whatsoever. As far as Forza's quality vs quantity is concerned, I think 200 cars was a good number to begin with. However, audio-wise, the game hasn't progressed as much as it could have. The improvement in quality is next to that of a FM3 to 4 transition. An audio upgrade or touch up if you will. Most of us were expecting a lot more. Oh well.

DC's approach is promising to say the least, and T10 may need to step up their game drastically. GT can be on the same boat....IF they want to.

The evidence suggests that car count is not the issue, rather technical limitations. You can't use other dev teams' work as a yard stick to judge what PD has been doing, because they've done something very different - something that is less sensitive to the issue of scope in the first place.



It's better that different devs follow their own design focus. The last thing we need is a market full of copy-cats. If sound is Drive Club's strong suit, that's great. You can bet it will lack in other areas, for certain tastes. Compromise.

Forza has great sounds, so does Asseto Corsa, DC and PCARS. So who's the copycat? They ALL have great engine sounds to begin with....

Technical limitations? Like lack of time..not enough disc space.. no enough resources, or simply a lack of imagination? A game that has gorgeous visuals but terrible sound should be the equavalent of a major sin in the gaming industry! There are other PS3 driving games that have done an excellent job in the audio department.

So I'm not buying that "technical limitations" justification, sorry. A game that was delayed for several years should have at least put some thought and given attention to proper sounds. Forza takes just two years to develop.. and the sound was already *super duper* in FM2. It's only improved since then.
 
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So no sound update for GT6. Wow. :( Should have guessed that was going to happen.
They've maxed out the PS3 and sound requires both CPU and memory. In games like Forza 4 on last gen at least 30 mb of RAM was dedicated to sounds. I don't think they have that much headroom left on PS3 at this point.
 
So no sound update for GT6. Wow. :( Should have guessed that was going to happen.
That article about the standard cars in GT7 says there will be a sound update for GT6 but it wont be the major update like in GT7

"And what can we expect of the PlayStation 4 game? Polyphony has recently started its own blog where it's addressing concerns of its community, including the quality of the sound within the series which Yamauchi admits isn't up to scratch. It's still in the plan to update the audio in Gran Turismo 6 - as Yamauchi revealed to Eurogamer last September - but the full overhaul won't come until Gran Turismo 7."
 
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Ok so here's the situation then : We will get BETTER sounds in GT6 but the FULL shabaam will be in GT7.

We wanted better sounds didn't we?
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The way I see it makes sense, plus GT7: Prologue is not gonna happen. On the brighter side, we will be getting better sounds in GT6, but that makes me look forward to GT7 even more now. I think when PD , especially Kaz saw what needed to be done and what people wanted, they had to make some well-made decisions. At the same time however, they may have shot themselves in the foot if the GT7 sounds end up not meeting expectations. Will it be something to put GT's competition to shame? We'll have to wait and see.
 
Pull the plug on GT6 Server when Project Cars ships. Then reconnect Server plug as soon as GT7 goes gold. Will make sure I also have dedicated 7.2 Audio / Video System in place to enjoy the GT7 sounds. Maybe even one from Sony!
 
I'm seriously confused now :lol: Oh well. I'm used to the sounds in GT6 by now so really it's no biggie if they aren't changed. I'll def look forward to GT7 and see what real improvements they can make.
 
I'm seriously confused now :lol: Oh well. I'm used to the sounds in GT6 by now so really it's no biggie if they aren't changed. I'll def look forward to GT7 and see what real improvements they can make.

Why doesn't anyone get it:ill: ??? No offence

We're going to get better sounds for GT6, there WILL be an update for GT6 but it will be a minor update. The Major update will be on GT7.

The way I see it is PD will max out whatever power they have left on the PS3 and save the biggen for GT7.
 
...

Forza has great sounds, so does Asseto Corsa, DC and PCARS. So who's the copycat? They ALL have great engine sounds to begin with....

And they all do it a different way! That's the point. :rolleyes:

Technical limitations? Like lack of time..not enough disc space.. no enough resources, or simply a lack of imagination? A game that has gorgeous visuals but terrible sound should be the equavalent of a major sin in the gaming industry! There are other PS3 driving games that have done an excellent job in the audio department.

No.

So I'm not buying that "technical limitations" justification, sorry. A game that was delayed for several years should have at least put some thought and given attention to proper sounds. Forza takes just two years to develop.. and the sound was already *super duper* in FM2. It's only improved since then.

Actually, the sound has got worse since FM2. What happened to the clear fidelity, and the changes in sound from modifications, for starters?

The technical limitations I'm referring to, as opposed to the ones you're straining yourself to imagine, involve numerical techniques required to turn a collection of numbers into an expressive and flexible, fully synthetic engine sound. The likes of which has never been heard before, and probably won't now until GT7.
 
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