Sound Update (PD is now hiring! + Email!)Answered

[TayeezSA]

Actually, the sound has got worse since FM2. What happened to the clear fidelity, and the changes in sound from modifications, for starters?

Gonna have to agree with Griffith here.

Here's a modded 22B STI from Forza 2


The Same Car modded from Forza 5


I rate the Forza 2 version sounds better on upshifts, downshifts and tonal change. Though they're the same while climbing the rev range yet FM2 sounds a bit better. The turbo noises sound more accurate in the FM2 version.

With the FM2 version the sound matches to the pace.

Anywho, let's not bring the Forza vs GT argument. Go with what you want but don't tune the other. The same way I think the sounds have gotten worse since GT3 with some exceptions in the new GTs

 

[Soulfresh_ACV]

Maybe PD just need to use different sound engines instead of trying to build the whole banana. While deciding whether to buy Asseto Corsa on Steam as it's currently on 50% discount, read an article about how they and next-gen games like DriveClub this engine http://www.fmod.org/category/news/

 

[Speedster911]

And they all do it a different way! That's the point.



No.



Actually, the sound has got worse since FM2. What happened to the clear fidelity, and the changes in sound from modifications, for starters?

The technical limitations I'm referring to, as opposed to the ones you're straining yourself to imagine, involve numerical techniques required to turn a collection of numbers into an expressive and flexible, fully synthetic engine sound. The likes of which has never been heard before, and probably won't now until GT7.

Bold statement there. Looks like GT7 has a lot to live up to now, thanks to you!

Gonna have to agree with Griffith here.

Here's a modded 22B STI from Forza 2


The Same Car modded from Forza 5


I rate the Forza 2 version sounds better on upshifts, downshifts and tonal change. Though they're the same while climbing the rev range yet FM2 sounds a bit better. The turbo noises sound more accurate in the FM2 version.

With the FM2 version the sound matches to the pace.

Anywho, let's not bring the Forza vs GT argument. Go with what you want but don't tune the other. The same way I think the sounds have gotten worse since GT3 with some exceptions in the new GTs

I sure miss FM2 sounds. The upgrades especially, sounds were pretty good. I'll be honest here: FM needs a boost in audio too, though overall, not just engine effects, they have gotten better.

Now that I look back, GT 3 and 4 actually had pretty decent sounds.

Can't wait to see what Kaz has up his sleeve with GT7. Good news is he's now as concerned as the fans/gamers are!

 

[Griffith500]

Maybe PD just need to use different sound engines instead of trying to build the whole banana. While deciding whether to buy Asseto Corsa on Steam as it's currently on 50% discount, read an article about how they and next-gen games like DriveClub this engine http://www.fmod.org/category/news/

iRacing wasted a year trying to bend that to fit their own systems. It wouldn't handle their drivetrain flex, is my bet.

When you're (supposed to be) at the bleeding edge, a big, bulky, mass of a product with huge inertia and no direct focus (because it's designed to service the needs of a wide range of developers for different kinds of games, as commodities, mainly), is not what you want to be wasting time with.

Besides, it's only really the glue. pCARS, Forza and DC all use FMod, but they all sound different. So many other games use FMod and sound awful, too.

Bold statement there. Looks like GT7 has a lot to live up to now, thanks to you!

...

Not at all. Kaz himself said they were working on a "completely new method". It doesn't take a genius to make the connection with the Red Bull and Senna cars. I suppose I have an advantage over most in knowing what different methods "sound like". To say that it's unprecedented is objective fact, and follows logically from Kaz's own statement!

I made no quality judgment in terms of what to expect from the final product; if you want to infer one, that's your risk.

 

[SimTourist]

Besides, it's only really the glue. pCARS, Forza and DC all use FMod, but they all sound different. So many other games use FMod and sound awful, too.

Yeah, tools like Fmod are just that, tools, I can download 3DSMax and Zbrush right now, but will I be able to model a car comparable to GT or Forza? No, because I have the tools, but I don't have the skills. And while better tools are favorable to use, they will be completely useless without the required skills to make use of them.

 

[John_McClane]

Oh Kaz, that answer hurts

 

[Griffith500]

Yeah, tools like Fmod are just that, tools, I can download 3DSMax and Zbrush right now, but will I be able to model a car comparable to GT or Forza? No, because I have the tools, but I don't have the skills. And while better tools are favorable to use, they will be completely useless without the required skills to make use of them.

It's worse than that, even, since those modeling programs would be more akin to something like Audition or ProTools on the sound side.

Licensing a plug-in sound engine is more like getting a plug-in graphics engine. The way the final product looks depends entirely on the assets you put through it, and the aesthetic direction taken - not to mention the skill of the director and the artists. However, the expression possible with that engine is partially determined by the way it works at a low and, more immediately, at a high level, that you can probably learn to recognise "signatures" for that piece of middle-ware. For instance, I could probably recognise a Lithtech engine from an idTech 2 engine from an original Unreal engine powered game fairly quickly. I'm sure the kids today can tell a CryEngine game from an Unreal one, or Frostbite etc. too (although, the homogeneity of post-processing in particular, in terms of aesthetic targets and the hardware / APIs, means that's probably harder).

Couple that with the way a given package exposes those "functions" that developers use for "expression", in terms of the built-in structure of the "engine", and you find that the choice of "plug-in" determines the way that the game systems as a whole work and interact (because you have to build an interface between that engine and your other systems).

So switching to a different engine can be a bit of a chore, even if it's a comprehensive one ("all" "base" systems: audio, graphics, logic etc.) like Unreal or CryEngine. It's great for developers just wanting to push some games out, and you can work around the imposed functionality of a given (combination) of engines, but if you really want to do exactly what you want, then you have to go bespoke.

 

[SimTourist]

It's worse than that, even, since those modeling programs would be more akin to something like Audition or ProTools on the sound side.

Licensing a plug-in sound engine is more like getting a plug-in graphics engine. The way the final product looks depends entirely on the assets you put through it, and the aesthetic direction taken - not to mention the skill of the director and the artists. However, the expression possible with that engine is partially determined by the way it works at a low and, more immediately, at a high level, that you can probably learn to recognise "signatures" for that piece of middle-ware. For instance, I could probably recognise a Lithtech engine from an idTech 2 engine from an original Unreal engine powered game fairly quickly. I'm sure the kids today can tell a CryEngine game from an Unreal one, or Frostbite etc. too (although, the homogeneity of post-processing in particular, in terms of aesthetic targets and the hardware / APIs, means that's probably harder).

Couple that with the way a given package exposes those "functions" that developers use for "expression", in terms of the built-in structure of the "engine", and you find that the choice of "plug-in" determines the way that the game systems as a whole work and interact (because you have to build an interface between that engine and your other systems).

So switching to a different engine can be a bit of a chore, even if it's a comprehensive one ("all" "base" systems: audio, graphics, logic etc.) like Unreal or CryEngine. It's great for developers just wanting to push some games out, and you can work around the imposed functionality of a given (combination) of engines, but if you really want to do exactly what you want, then you have to go bespoke.

Yeah, this is pretty spot on, like for example every game ever on UE3 looks almost exactly the same, you can always tell.

 

[symaski62]

Toyota Hybrid TS030 - exit Pit - First EV mode than V8 mode!

sourd real ^^

 

[Numb2pencil]

I am loving the low end senna version vehicle (white one). Although majority of the cars out pace me, just the sheer sound factor alone brings me to take it for a spin often. So, as far as some people saying that the sound is not a factor, for me, it plays a big role. (Nothing big to contribute here 8/... just wanted to voice my opinion. Cheers!

 

[SniperRed3]

I recently started driving the Mazda 787b I love the sound, but I love it because it's better than most car sounds in gt6 But I want to love it because it sounds amazing on it's own merits.

 

[TayeezSA]

I recently started driving the Mazda 787b I love the sound, but I love it because it's better than most car sounds in gt6 But I want to love it because it sounds amazing on it's own merits.

While it does sound decent, it could be better. Like this one

 

[SniperRed3]

That is what I was trying to state in the most complex method known to man.

 

[TayeezSA]

That is what I was trying to state in the most complex method known to man.

I see I see. Still though, 4 rotor brah

 

[SniperRed3]

Oh, and Gran Turismo made this the one of the worst looking premium models in the game.

 

[Griffith500]

Check out the Doppler effects from 30s. That's all reflections from static scenery.



I got that effect whilst experimenting with reverb ideas in a game setting. I thought it was a bug at first, but then I thought about it and it made perfect sense "logically", but I couldn't figure out why I'd never heard it before in real life. And then this video came to my attention...

Imagine that detail in a game. One day!

 

[SniperRed3]

Yup I had to google what that meant. But I know what you meant already you just used the correct word.

 

[TayeezSA]

Check out the Doppler effects from 30s. That's all reflections from static scenery.



I got that effect whilst experimenting with reverb ideas in a game setting. I thought it was a bug at first, but then I thought about it and it made perfect sense "logically", but I couldn't figure out why I'd never heard it before in real life. And then this video came to my attention...

Imagine that detail in a game. One day!

I think this better shows it

View attachment 179322Yup I had to google what that meant. But I know what you meant already you just used the correct word.

Ahhhhhh Grade 12 science, the days I don't want to remember

 

[ScottPuss20]

Check out the Doppler effects from 30s. That's all reflections from static scenery.



I got that effect whilst experimenting with reverb ideas in a game setting. I thought it was a bug at first, but then I thought about it and it made perfect sense "logically", but I couldn't figure out why I'd never heard it before in real life. And then this video came to my attention...

Imagine that detail in a game. One day!

I think GRID 2 already has it

 

[SniperRed3]

Are we talking about the echo here?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Are we talking about the echo here?

 

[SDSPOWER01]

Are we talking about the echo here?

You can say that it's called "the Doppler effect"

 

[Griffith500]

I was talking about the repeated sound of cars "zooming" past, heard as the 787B is still approaching. Of course, there's only that one car on the track (and nothing passing the camera), so it must be reflections coming from objects by the track. For each "zoom", the car has clearly just passed a bit of reflective scenery. So the Doppler swing heard at that location is being reflected down the track to a still-distant observer, the camera (because sound travels faster than a 787B).

I wasn't talking about the reverb in general, and not about the Doppler shift as the car finally passes the camera.
Maybe it's not that audible; I can hear it on my laptop speakers, but then I've heard it before (our brains have excellent selectivity / pattern recognition, e.g. so we can hear each other talking in a noisy environment). Try with headphones; specifically around the 30 second mark.

 

[CSLACR]

I think it's wise to remember how this sub-forum came about, and Jordan's comments about things "being in the works" around the time people started asking in earnest exactly how and when the questions would be answered.

In that sense, I'd suggest that the marking of this question as "answered", despite only the partial publication of that answer so far, is an indication of yet more communication behind the scenes. GTPlanet was directly mentioned in the first part of the answer, also.

The rest is probably ready to be posted (and I'd say it has been for some time), it's just that information is always best released in a controlled manner. It's likely PD don't want to show their hand too soon.

I think if PD had shown us last May what their new sounds would be like, and then here we are still without them, it's possible people would be going even more crazy about it.

So at what longevity does it become humorous(ly stupid) for you then? To answer a simple question, that is?

If PD is going for this "new communication" etc, this sure sounds like an old tune...
(releasing information without actually releasing information is as classic PD as classic PD gets)

 

[SimTourist]

I doubt we'll see an improvement that will bring them up to par with other sims. They will dedicate more power to sound processing and probably use higher quality samples, but for the majority of cars those samples will still be the records they've made by revving cars in neutral and with just 4 mics. No way in hell they'll rerecord 1000+ cars from scratch.

 

[KiroKai]

I doubt we'll see an improvement that will bring them up to par with other sims. They will dedicate more power to sound processing and probably use higher quality samples, but for the majority of cars those samples will still be the records they've made by revving cars in neutral and with just 4 mics. No way in hell they'll rerecord 1000+ cars from scratch.

But it's not 1000+ individual sounds to record. Even if they keep all the silly standard duplicates they could cover 25 cars by recording one, e.g. Skyline R34. They already take too many shortcuts with sounds anyway, they've put the V10 Gallardo sound on all modern V12 Lambos, and all those V12 Lambos have the same custom exhaust sounds too.

 

[SimTourist]

But it's not 1000+ individual sounds to record. Even if they keep all the silly standard duplicates they could cover 25 cars by recording one, e.g. Skyline R34. They already take too many shortcuts with sounds anyway, they've put the V10 Gallardo sound on all modern V12 Lambos, and all those V12 Lambos have the same custom exhaust sounds too.

That's the point, some people here unrealistically expect GT to become the leader in sounds, when in reality their techniques and sound libraries are at least 10 years behind market. They might have decent recordings for recent cars they've captured, but that's not a lot.

 

[GTboyz]

Ive got a question for you guys. Just how updated is the quality of the sounds when you compare the usual car with the Senna cars ? For example, how much different the quality of the sound between Formula GT and Senna.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

And now this:

http://community.us.playstation.com...-sound-issue-TECHNICAL/m-p/43974510#U43974510

HAHAHAHA!!!

 

[Griffith500]

So at what longevity does it become humorous(ly stupid) for you then? To answer a simple question, that is?

If PD is going for this "new communication" etc, this sure sounds like an old tune...
(releasing information without actually releasing information is as classic PD as classic PD gets)

I don't know. About as long as it takes me to lose interest, at which point it won't matter any more. I disagree that it is a simple question; if all people want to know is "are we getting an update", that has been answered: GT7. The trouble is, that kind of answer wasn't enough in the past, and it won't be enough now.

I will say I'm disappointed in the rate (or consistency of the rate) at which stuff is posted to the new blog. But this drip-feeding of info is a deliberate control of the "playing field" when there is competition, as much of a mixed blessing as that can be.

Ive got a question for you guys. Just how updated is the quality of the sounds when you compare the usual car with the Senna cars ? For example, how much different the quality of the sound between Formula GT and Senna.

It depends what you mean by quality. The fidelity (accuracy of the individual parts of the sound) is much lower on the Red Bull and Senna cars, but the quality of their response to the control inputs is much greater. The quality of the rawness of the sound, and its range of expression even with static controls, is also much better.

I personally believe those two things combine to outweigh the reduction in fidelity for many people, resulting in the perception of better overall quality (of experience). Which is interesting; I think it's all a little experiment to see how we'd take that drop in fidelity.

And now this:

http://community.us.playstation.com...-sound-issue-TECHNICAL/m-p/43974510#U43974510

HAHAHAHA!!!

They are too loud, though. I have to turn my headphones down when driving in a race with them, it's almost unbearable. I think that's simply because those cars use a different mixing / mastering scheme from all the rest. The excessive flow noise from the exhaust, for instance, may be better balanced for the Red Bull and Senna cars, because it's barely audible as a separate sound (unlike other cars with racing exhausts).