Sounds - Will they finally be good?

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PD has never managed to get them right. Will they this time?

Sounds is one of the most important aspects of a race sim as far as I'm concerned. To me it's half the joy being in cockpit view hearing the engine and transmission noise.



So, why have PD failed on this area in the previous titles, and what will they have to learn to get it right for GT6?
 
The whole team working on sounds should be fired, I bet it's the same guys since GT1.
 
I have read some where that Kaz thinks the sounds are perfect! So if he thinks there perfect, i don't see them being changed.
 
I have read some where that Kaz thinks the sounds are perfect! So if he thinks there perfect, i don't see them being changed.
Source?

If he really have said that he must be a complete and utter idiot to be honest.
 
Source?

If he really have said that he must be a complete and utter idiot to be honest.
Jordan wrote an article and quoted Kaz. Trust me it's true.
Too much racing in real world fudged up his ears.
 
Found the article https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turis...e-kazunori-yamauchis-2012-gtplanet-interview/

Critics often complain about the car engine sounds in GT5, claiming they sound sterile or artificial. What is your opinion on these engine sounds in GT5, and will these critics’ concerns be addressed in future games?

My perspective is that the sounds in Gran Turismo are just too real. With the recording method we use, we use a dyno and put the load on, and the sound we produce is just too accurate. I think it would be a good thing to sort of design the sound a little bit, and so that is something I would like to challenge ourselves with in the future.

What I find is that one of our themes with Gran Turismo is to create something that is real; that is what our team is focused on, but that can be an issue sometimes as well. If we see something in front of us, we try to reproduce that very accurately, and that tendency is getting stronger.

But, I think we maybe need to make things sexier sometimes, and I think that is something the Gran Turismo team might need to work on. It could also be because our team is growing in number, which could be one of our barriers to that goal.

-------

Fixed. Or at least I think it's two people at the most from the credits.
I want his/their names. Now :banghead:
 
Taking Kaz's previous statement regarding engine sound into consideration, I doubt they will get it right.
 
Re: Interview:

There was a translator present - just not Translator-san (who I'm told has broken his ankle - get well soon Translator-san!) - and Yamauchi rarely speaks in English at all, let alone full interviews.

However, invoking "lost in translation", I kind of understand what he's getting at, even if I don't necessarily agree.


"Sound" is a complex field - it's not as simple as recording a noise and playing it back. A really basic example is how you sound differently on a tape recorder than you do in your head. While I'm sure that how they record sounds isn't necessarily how I'd do it (doing it on a dyno is sensible - loading the engine with no road noise), the simple fact is that you will not be able to tell the difference on an equaliser between the real car and the GT5 one. It'll be the same pitch (frequency) spectrum at, if you choose, the same volume. This is what I suspect Kazunori means by "too real" - 1:1 on the equaliser.

This isn't the problem with GT5's sounds. The problem is what he refers to as "sexier" sounds - or what musicians will know as timbre. If you play two musical instruments at the same pitch and same volume an equaliser will show no difference - but they're different, aren't they? You know how you can tell between a synthesiser version of an instrument and a real instrument - or a human voice and autotune? This is due to timbre - timbre is what gives "sexiness" to sound. You can even tell between two identical instruments played entirely in synch with each other due to timbre...

What constitutes timbre is tough to pin down - it's essentially every characteristic of a sound that isn't the frequency or volume :lol: It's often referred to as "sound colour" and you'll hear terms bandied about like ADSR (attack [the start of a note], decay [normalisation from the attack to the sustain], sustain [the intended note], release [return to zero]), but it's really tough to explain and even tougher to compress and shove onto a CD/DVD/BD, uncompress, dynamically simulate and allow space for a game.

What many games do to substitute for timbre is make it louder and add more bass - because we associate noise, particularly bassy noise, with feeling. If you can feel the noise move through you it feels more "real" (and at real race tracks, sound hits you like a wall). Shoved through a set of TV speakers, it sounds "better" than the quieter and more accurate (in terms of the equaliser) note. GT games don't do this (with the exception of GTHD) and so, through TV speakers, they sound like ass because there is neither real feeling nor fake feeling - just the frequencies and volume. They sound better if you have speakers with better range and quicker reactions or if you have a good amp to dig the sounds out (on the pair of monitor speakers I usually use for gaming, GT5 sounds fine, if a little vague sometimes. Good enough at least that my wife can hear I'm driving a V8, three walls and a floor away) but the lack of timbre or a substitute for it prevents the realism.

There's certainly more they could do. Sound recording needs to be primarily in the driver's seat for cockpit, in the engine for nosecam, two feet behind and four feet above the car for coptercam (though winding in some essence of the other two for each will help add character). It needs to be pushed through a spectrometer rather than an equaliser before being passed as satisfactory. It needs to be optimised for different settings - the ghacky 2W TV speakers most people play through, a stereo system, a basic surround system (2.1), a middle surround system (5.1), a geeky surround system (7.1) and a full cinema system (what's this up to now? 14.2?).

Or they could make it louder and add bass.


Take "real" as "faithful frequency and amplitude reproduction" and take "sexier" as "better timbre or bassier/noisier" and the response makes sense.
 

Yeah I was right, it's two people listed under "Sound Simulation"

Daisuke Takeuchi
Youhei Shimizu

Then there is a "Lead Sound Designer" who I guess was in charge of overall sounds across the game, Masao Kimura.

But yeah that's it, three people credited to sound in GT5 credits. Also just two people credited to AI. On the other hand there are 28 car modellers.....
 
There have been two different sound directors for GT. The first was for GT1 - GT3, the second for GT4 onwards (although I think he was involved with GT3 as well). Since GT4, the overall sound balance has been much more realistic, although the lairy balance of GT2 is still probably one of the series' highlights. He's also responsible for the superb audio engine in GT5:P and GT5 proper. The samples are the same ones used for GT2 - there's probably a reason for that, and that might be related to "sound simulation".

To say that the sound team needs firing is the height of ignorance, not to mention egomania; I wonder how you'd feel if some snot-nosed know-it-all decided that you were no longer fit to earn an income based on their analysis of the short-term results of long-term decisions made by your superiors.

Does anyone remember Kaz talking about the visuals, how he thought they were too perfect? What did that result in, given that at the time the major criticism was that they were too bland? I think that what Kaz meant won't be comprehended by anyone who isn't Kaz, but I suspect he knows exactly what's wrong with the sounds, on an emotional level (much as he did with the visuals.) His audio lead clearly knows everything about the underlying principles, so hopefully they are effective in communicating with each other.

And, yeah, existing thread, etc.
 
There was a translator present - just not Translator-san (who I'm told has broken his ankle - get well soon Translator-san!) - and Yamauchi rarely speaks in English at all, let alone full interviews.

However, invoking "lost in translation", I kind of understand what he's getting at, even if I don't necessarily agree.

"Sound" is a complex field - it's not as simple as recording a noise and playing it back. A really basic example is how you sound differently on a tape recorder than you do in your head. While I'm sure that how they record sounds isn't necessarily how I'd do it (doing it on a dyno is sensible - loading the engine with no road noise), the simple fact is that you will not be able to tell the difference on an equaliser between the real car and the GT5 one. It'll be the same pitch (frequency) spectrum at, if you choose, the same volume. This is what I suspect Kazunori means by "too real" - 1:1 on the equaliser.

The perplexing thing is that some cars were recorded on a dyno, others on track, and others just parked up somewhere. But they all have the same drawbacks, consistent with the lowest-common-denominator: parked up.
This isn't the problem with GT5's sounds. The problem is what he refers to as "sexier" sounds - or what musicians will know as timbre. If you play two musical instruments at the same pitch and same volume an equaliser will show no difference - but they're different, aren't they? You know how you can tell between a synthesiser version of an instrument and a real instrument - or a human voice and autotune? This is due to timbre - timbre is what gives "sexiness" to sound. You can even tell between two identical instruments played entirely in synch with each other due to timbre...

What constitutes timbre is tough to pin down - it's essentially every characteristic of a sound that isn't the frequency or volume :lol: It's often referred to as "sound colour" and you'll hear terms bandied about like ADSR (attack [the start of a note], decay [normalisation from the attack to the sustain], sustain [the intended note], release [return to zero]), but it's really tough to explain and even tougher to compress and shove onto a CD/DVD/BD, uncompress, dynamically simulate and allow space for a game.

Timbre or "colour" is the spectral signature of the sound, and as such is dependent on pitch and volume, and also forms part of how the properties of the sound change over time. You can think of colour as being an analogy of "key colour" applied to musical instruments, and as such is an entirely emotional concept in origin. Nowadays, sound is usually split into several other components that make discussion and objective measuring (and thus reproduction) a bit easier: pitch, harmonics, formants and volume(s); and these are considered both statically and "dynamically" - that's not to be confused with "dynamics" in the musical sense, i.e. changes in volume alone, but rather how they each change with time.

Reproducing the static timbre is easy, as is the pitch, the samples do that already. What is hard, as you rightly say, are the dynamic changes in these things - any discussion on vocal synthesis will quickly tell you that much. Having tried synthesising engine sounds myself, I can tell you that you can use several different methods to get perfectly accurate (but static) engine sounds, but it's the way they change according to the inputs that is the real challenge. The ADSR stuff, whilst really an artificial construct useful in synthetic instruments, is primarily a dynamic consideration, and can be (and is) used for all of the properties of sound: fundamental pitch, harmonic structure, formants, volume etc. This sort of variation is impossible to produce a sample set for, as you say.
What many games do to substitute for timbre is make it louder and add more bass - because we associate noise, particularly bassy noise, with feeling. If you can feel the noise move through you it feels more "real" (and at real race tracks, sound hits you like a wall). Shoved through a set of TV speakers, it sounds "better" than the quieter and more accurate (in terms of the equaliser) note. GT games don't do this (with the exception of GTHD) and so, through TV speakers, they sound like ass because there is neither real feeling nor fake feeling - just the frequencies and volume. They sound better if you have speakers with better range and quicker reactions or if you have a good amp to dig the sounds out (on the pair of monitor speakers I usually use for gaming, GT5 sounds fine, if a little vague sometimes. Good enough at least that my wife can hear I'm driving a V8, three walls and a floor away) but the lack of timbre or a substitute for it prevents the realism.

To me, this is nothing to do with timbre, at least not the measurable type. It is purely psychoacoustics. Loud sounds are felt as well as heard, and if you don't have that, it won't feel right, absolutely. Additionally, however, games neglect spatial colouration on sounds massively, because it's a spectral thing - different frequencies are affected differently.

If you consider the problem of global illumination and then realise that the length scales involved with sounds mean you need to do that sort of thing for every frequency (or some constrained set of frequency bands) you can begin to see the scale of this particular issue. Nevertheless, adding convincing spatialisation (due to both source and environment, both of which are static in recordings) is key to making the sounds more real, much more so than fake distortion and bass-boosting. The updated external sounds on iRacing's V8 Supercars are proof of that. All that changed was the samples include a bit of comb filtering naturally present from a distant recording, and it really makes the sound that much more real (compare the original sounds). I personally think these effects should be added dynamically, but I haven't personally found a reliable way to do that yet (but I know it's possible).

Add to that better simulation of the way engines actually work, and you immediately get better control of the dynamic aspects of the engine (i.e. "ADSR") - again, see iRacing, which recently added drivetrain flex to its simulation and got "gear wobble" etc. effects for free. The improvement (compare) is spectacular.
There's certainly more they could do. Sound recording needs to be primarily in the driver's seat for cockpit, in the engine for nosecam, two feet behind and four feet above the car for coptercam (though winding in some essence of the other two for each will help add character). It needs to be pushed through a spectrometer rather than an equaliser before being passed as satisfactory. It needs to be optimised for different settings - the ghacky 2W TV speakers most people play through, a stereo system, a basic surround system (2.1), a middle surround system (5.1), a geeky surround system (7.1) and a full cinema system (what's this up to now? 14.2?).

Or they could make it louder and add bass.

Sound recording for making of samples needs to be as clean as possible, capturing all the sources externally (so, intake, exhaust etc.) and a single set of directional recordings from the interior. They then need to collect recordings, preferably with video relating the position and angle of the car relative to the listener, of the car being used, preferably in an open area, to get an idea of how those clean sources translate into the spatialised sounds we need to be hearing.

That's the source aspect of spatialisation, which varies from car to car based on its shape, size, source placement, shape and size etc. and should be reproduced on the fly by colouring the clean recordings appropriately. The environment aspect is easily approximated using reverbs and proper directional source mixing, although there's some complexity with reverb and direct path volume scaling (wet / dry ratio), as well as directional reverbs.

The hardware for a spectrometer and an equaliser are very similar - in the former, you're only interested in measuring the relative "volumes" of the frequency ranges, whereas the EQ is designed to scale them relatively. As such, two musical instruments do look different on an EQ (assuming it has a pre-vis), in exactly the same way they look different on a spectrometer - their different timbres are apparent in their spectra. What is different is that a spectrometer tends to have more frequency bands, but that's not a defining feature in general, since you can get some very finely divided EQs on studio hardware and especially software.

The sounds do need to have different mixing for differnet hardware - GT5 suffers in that it has realistic dynamic ranges, coupled with a dynamic range (volume) compressor, that really doesn't work on hardware with poor dynamic range. What it needs is a dynamic source-volume solution to allow the dynamic range to fit in a given "window", rather than cap the volume, which just means quieter concurrent sounds get drowned out.
Take "real" as "faithful frequency and amplitude reproduction" and take "sexier" as "better timbre or bassier/noisier" and the response makes sense.

As I've already stated, I think he's talking about the sterility, much as he was with the environment visuals. How everything looked "perfect", because it was captured at one time of day and everything was so clean and unchanging. The sounds are similar, they are clean (close, isolated recordings) and totally static in terms of spatialisation, except for a bit of clever noise generation and filtering on the exhaust sounds - a clue to PD's intended direction.

Since the solution to the sterile visuals was to include dirt in all the right places, and extra detail, too, plus to add a dynamic aspect to them in the form of weather and day / night transitions (here and there...), I suspect the same is going to happen to the sounds. That is, they'll have imperfections (colouration) dynamically applied to them according to the source conditions and the environment.

Dynamic spatialisation is sexy. ;)
 
Hopefully we see the same dedication to getting the sounds right like they did with adjusting the HSV.
 
Hopefully we see the same dedication to getting the sounds right like they did with adjusting the HSV.

Hopefully they get it in one go though, not having three attempts, the first of which was woeful.
 
Its a pity Kaz thinks he had to make things more sexy, if it ends up being hardcore porn we will have Forza on a Sony platform.

And I would dislike that, I can't listen to most racing games sounds for more than 2 laps. It might sound 'sexy' for a while but then the artificial lines start to dominate, wich ruins any long race experience at least for me.

I hope PDI can manage to create a soft-porn type of sound, so in sexiness it's attractive and nice but not rottenly violates the ears.

They could just leave the sounds the way they are, for me. I have a almost 30 year old Pioneer station plugged in and although it probably uses more electricity than my power-radiators, GT5 sounds amazing with them. Maybe because they provide a little bit of a 'dirty' mix into the 'clean' GT-sounds.
Use an old stereo, its very recommandable.
 
They could just leave the sounds the way they are, for me. I have a almost 30 year old Pioneer station plugged in and although it probably uses more electricity than my power-radiators, GT5 sounds amazing with them. Maybe because they provide a little bit of a 'dirty' mix into the 'clean' GT-sounds.
Use an old stereo, its very recommandable.
I can't possibly imagine what your power bills look like.... :scared:
 
If they still only have a handfull of people working on sound, no.

If they increase the sound staff, most likely.

What I dislike moreso then the quality or realism of sound in Gran Turismo is the lack of variety. I pin that fault on the lack of manpower.

Theres a few cars in Gran Turismo 5 that sound good. But only a few. Listen to a Peugeot 908 racecar onboard and a high speed flyby of the same car. Then do the same with GT5. The GT5 version sounds nothing like the real thing. Yet "amateur" modders have captured the sound of the 908 far better then PD has for PC sims. The distinct "swoosh" flyby sound is even there.

Thats what leads me to believe PD does not have enough manpower in the sound department to give quality sounds for the majority of the cars. The sounds are of high quality, but there is no variety. Its like the took a V8 sound from a single muscle car, and plastered it on 50 or so similar cars with minor to no tweaks at all.

TheY dont have the team to go through each car and give each of them the unique sound they deserve.
 
@ MSTER232

Not sure how my name got in that guote! All i have is a 2.1 Klipsch (PC) system hooked up to my tv. Anyways just the 38 second clip from Driver Club sound better than GT5 to me! Just my two cents.
 
I think they should try different mic. positions.
I saw a picture where they were recording from way too close to the car's exhaust. Probably all the gas flow ruins the quality.
Or they just lie and use generic sounds for the mayority of cars.
 
I can't possibly imagine what your power bills look like.... :scared:

lol you quoted me using a wrong name...

the bills are ok I pay 8 €-cents per kw/h, using an average of 1000kw a month. So its about 80€/month.

Warmer seasons come it is much less because I no longer need the radiators.

sorry for being off topic...
 
@ MSTER232

Not sure how my name got in that guote! All i have is a 2.1 Klipsch (PC) system hooked up to my tv. Anyways just the 38 second clip from Driver Club sound better than GT5 to me! Just my two cents.

I don't recall much of that being in-game, though - the stuff that was seemed indistinct, everything else was clearly raw recordings edited to suit the footage.
I think they should try different mic. positions.
I saw a picture where they were recording from way too close to the car's exhaust. Probably all the gas flow ruins the quality.
Or they just lie and use generic sounds for the mayority of cars.

The mic positioning is fine for the kinds of things that should be done with the recordings. The gas flow won't be directly impacting the mic, although it won't pick up as much gas flow noise as there actually is (you have to go completely off-axis for that), which is why PD add more in at run-time (aero-acoustics is pretty well understood for simple geometry like circular orifices with low Mach numbers).
 
I´m a graphics, sound and physics whore...literally.

Sound is a huge part in any racing game. Tons of games are making this right as of now...why PD can´t replicate what others do?

There is no excuse. Not even technically speaking. Other games uses different methods yes, but they at least try to replicate engine sounds as they really are.
Examples like, NFS games, any Codemasters game, Simbin games and tons of arcade games mostly. Which to me is hilarious...games with arcade physics made just for fun have better sound, and a simulator doesn´t...

If we don´t get proper realistic engine sounds in the next game...I probably won´t buy it. Then I´ll be laughing at their explanation about why they couldn´t make the sounds "right".

Look at the engine sounds of any GT5 promotional video clip...It is like lying to the costumers. I call that fake advertising.

Hell, even Drive Club seems to have realistic sounds. If PD won´t deliver in that area after 15 years and 5 games...



PS: @Griffith I really like your technical explanations and sometimes "justifications" of why sounds are like that, etc...The quality is great overall but the SOUL, the POWER, the FEEL of the car is missing if you don´t have realistic engine sounds even by having the best quality/fidelity.

This is beyond technical explanations.
 
Look at the engine sounds of any GT5 promotional video clip...It is like lying to the costumers. I call that fake advertising.

Hmm they generally play rock or pop music or something like that on their vids. From what I've seen anyway.
 

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