Standard cars ARE in GT6. (100% confirmed)

[Chad D.]

Pd's "quality... " do you really want me to take pictures of interiors that you guys mouth water about and point out all the cheep outs they have done ?
Get over PD's godly modeling standards, there great but not the best and do not take 2 freaking months to make! Maybe if the guy works one hour a day 5 days a week for two months and waits on the pictures to come in * WAITS*
again im not done. im missing bolts, rings , packing's and a lamp to go there..
the picture of the Audi in gt6 that's not in there godly lighting engine, it looks really cheep..

Updating headlights would be pointless since the ones they already have match the cars quality in the first place.

Regardless, no one likes a show off, especially when they aren't actually that good in the first place.....

 

[PepeMickey]

BTW, PD uses ALIAS to model their cars, also, some people really need to shut up, laughing at a person or talking about modeling isn't going to hide or fix the fact that PD has done this BS again, it was unacceptable in GT5 and unimagineable in GT6.

The fact that some people still support these awful and untolerable ways makes me sick. This is how DLC was established, online passes, season passes, day one DLC, it's all because of the people willing to pay for whatever kind of turd that gets thrown at them.

Congratulations to these people, they are killing the gaming industry...

 

[Downhill Dino]

I thought it was Maya that they had been using?

 

[dr_slump]

BTW, PD uses ALIAS to model their cars,

Which version?

I thought it was Maya that they had been using?

Autodesk Maya is included in Autodesk Alias Automotive, but not in the Alias Design version nor in the Alias Surface version.

 

[diegorborges]

BTW, PD uses ALIAS to model their cars, also, some people really need to shut up, laughing at a person or talking about modeling isn't going to hide or fix the fact that PD has done this BS again, it was unacceptable in GT5 and unimagineable in GT6.

The fact that some people still support these awful and untolerable ways makes me sick. This is how DLC was established, online passes, season passes, day one DLC, it's all because of the people willing to pay for whatever kind of turd that gets thrown at them.

Congratulations to these people, they are killing the gaming industry...

Nope, from what we know, PD use Maya. Autodesk ALIAS would generate a really dense mesh (you'll had to export it as ALIAS works with curves and surfaces).If they used ALIAS, they could receive the models from manufacturers as most of them use ALIAS for the first basic modelling and surface refinement. But, just imagine the work convert and to "clean" these ultra-detailed meshes to fit in a game. Honestly, unless they developed a really sharp workflow, it would take more work than modelling on Maya from zero.

The modelling that it's done on ALIAS cannot be used on a game right away... AFAIK.

And it's a completely different modelling process. I've worked a bit with 3dsmax, cinema4d and other 3d software for around 10 years. Tried to learn Alias by myself and it's a nightmare without a proper instructor. Completely different.

Compare these models with the wireframes that PD shown in the presentation:

 

[Downhill Dino]

Autodesk Maya is included in Autodesk Alias Automotive, but not in the Alias standard version nor in the Alias Surface version.

Oh. Thanks, I really didn't know that. 👍

 

[dr_slump]

Nope, from what we know, PD use Maya. Autodesk ALIAS would generate a really dense mesh (you'll had to export it as ALIAS works with curves and surfaces).If they used ALIAS, they could receive the models from manufacturers as most of them use ALIAS for the first basic modelling and surface refinement. But, just imagine the work convert and to "clean" these ultra-detailed meshes to fit in a game. Honestly, unless they developed a really sharp workflow, it would take more work than modelling on Maya from zero.

The modelling that it's done on ALIAS cannot be used on a game right away... AFAIK.

And it's a completely different modelling process. I've worked a bit with 3dsmax, cinema4d and other 3d software for around 10 years. Tried to learn Alias by myself and it's a nightmare without a proper instructor. Completely different.

Compare these models with the wireframes that PD shown in the presentation:

Autodesk Alias Automotive does include Autodesk Maya. If you had read my post you'd know this.
If he was talking about that version your point is unnecessary.



Here's a link if you don't believe me: http://www.autodesk.com/products/autodesk-alias-products/compare
(it's the third point)

 

[diegorborges]

Autodesk Alias Automotive does include Autodesk Maya. If you had read my post you'd know this.
If he was talking about that version your point is unnecessary.

You don't need to be harsh, friend.

Look at any footage that shows PD studios and find any screen using ALIAS, I really have seen only Maya... if they use Alias, it's a novelty for me and it would be interesting to know how they use it with game development. 👍

Edit: and I never said I don't believe you. I know that Alias Automotive may include Maya depending on the pack you choose, I was just trying to explain with my poor knowledge that I've never seen any game developer use a software like Alias...

 

[dr_slump]

You don't need to be harsh, friend.

Look at any footage that shows PD studios and find any screen using ALIAS, I really have seen only Maya... if they use Alias, it's a novelty for me and it would be interesting to know how they use it with game development. 👍

My post wasn't really harsh.

Don't know if it's possible to find screens with alias on it, but pepemickey can surely help since it was him who claimed PD to have Alias.

Oh. Thanks, I really didn't know that. 👍

I made a mistake though, I called the Design version Standard version. Doesn't change anything in this topic though.

 

[TheeFrogmanlego]

Well my point isint to say I'm better than pd but to put bit of speculation on how much time they claim it takes. two - six months just seems an awful lot for the quality we get..unless photo mode cars aren't the highest quality available.
But still that's a LONG TIME FOR ONE CAR . again that time is probably spent researching a car and getting reference pictures and stuff of which they all have for standard cars.. so in reality it should take 3 weeks tops..

 

[Stumps_GTI]

Still thinking aloud about these standard interiors...yeah, that's a bad thing. 💡
Is it just me, or have most ( a lot??) of the standard cars got some kind of an interior already??
When you view a replay, the driver is very noticeable, even with the dark window tint.
Also visible is a basic outline of the dash etc....👍
Could, this mean that re-modelling said interiors would not take that much extra effort???

I'm guessing that if PD have gone to this length to seat the driver in the correct position, maybe they have a basic enough interior to work with and convert them into premium?
From our 3D guys, would this be possible in your opinion?

 

[oink83]

I suggested the fact that standard cars have a very simple, 2D interior, and everyone just told me it was only for the open topped cars like the Suzuki and Caterham, so I actually agree with you, good to know I wasn't the only one who thought that

 

[regnar]

Still thinking aloud about these standard interiors...yeah, that's a bad thing. 💡
Is it just me, or have most ( a lot??) of the standard cars got some kind of an interior already??
When you view a replay, the driver is very noticeable, even with the dark window tint.
Also visible is a basic outline of the dash etc....👍
Could, this mean that re-modelling said interiors would not take that much extra effort???

I'm guessing that if PD have gone to this length to seat the driver in the correct position, maybe they have a basic enough interior to work with and convert them into premium?
From our 3D guys, would this be possible in your opinion?

The interiors on the standards are very basic, just giving a hint of something behind the tinted windows, in some replays you can see the driver has half his body buried in the model.

 

[GranTurismoer]

Looking at one of the car lists here on GTPlanet I counted some 38 cars from GT5 that have Premium and Standard versions of exactly the same car.

 

[shadynader]

BTW, PD uses ALIAS to model their cars, also, some people really need to shut up, laughing at a person or talking about modeling isn't going to hide or fix the fact that PD has done this BS again, it was unacceptable in GT5 and unimagineable in GT6.

The fact that some people still support these awful and untolerable ways makes me sick. This is how DLC was established, online passes, season passes, day one DLC, it's all because of the people willing to pay for whatever kind of turd that gets thrown at them.

Congratulations to these people, they are killing the gaming industry...

No they do not. Stop trying to shoehorn applications in to fit your stance when actually, if they did use ALIAS all they would be getting is an unworkable mesh, basically a 3D reference to start with instead of just 2d reference. Adding weeks to the project for no benefit whatsoever. Thereby making an argument against what you are trying to say.

You have no clue of the differences between the amount of problems CAD engineering software would bring and the immense benefits of having total control of every last polygon within 3D computer graphics software. And that is just the tip of the iceberg, honestly, I could go on and on....

So please keep out of discussions where you have no knowledge or sufficient experience. It only leads to embarrassment..

 

[dr_slump]

No they do not. Stop trying to shoehorn applications in to fit your stance when actually, if they did use ALIAS all they would be getting is an unworkable mesh, basically a 3D reference to start with instead of just 2d reference. Adding weeks to the project for no benefit whatsoever. Thereby making an argument against what you are trying to say.

You have no clue of the differences between the amount of problems CAD engineering software would bring and the immense benefits of having total control of every last polygon within 3D computer graphics software. And that is just the tip of the iceberg, honestly, I could go on and on....

So please keep out of discussions where you have no knowledge or sufficient experience. It only leads to embarrassment..

Autodesk Alias Automotive does include Autodesk Maya. Are you sure that they do not have the whole package?

 

[shadynader]

It does not matter, the model you would get from exporting across is not sufficient for games, you have very little control on many things, most importantly, poly placement. (clues in the CAD......Computer AIDED Design) Problems would go on and on and on.....

It is much easier to start in Maya where you have total control on where you place every last vert, and finish in Maya. Also, don't forget these people are trained 3D artists not trained engineers.

 

[20B_4ME]

Everyone has different tastes and the amount of standard cars do well to cater for a lot of different tastes. I love it that I can drive my cheap everyday run-about in GT5! It's a Corsa B (aka Holden Barina City 1.4 MPFi)

 

[ralph89]

Just a Q. Why can't PD ask other Sony's first party developers team to help model GT premium cars like Evolution studio or London studio? I mean PD spends more money than any racing sim out there yet they have a very little team compare to other racing game dev. (beside pc sim developers).

 

[TheeFrogmanlego]

Guys I will have it ( lamp) by Thursday, i brain farted and forgot i don't go to that class tomorrow.

 

[ImaRobot]

You do that to?! I sometimes forget that I'm supposed to go to work on tuesday. Doing it Monday through Friday for years really makes you forget about it.

 

[Tenacious D]

PD spends more money than any racing sim out there yet they have a very little team compare to other racing game dev.

I'm not too sure about that. To be sure, Codemasters is about 500 strong, and when Turn 10 gets into the meat of Forza development, they grow through subcontracting to about the same size. In T10's case, they're funded by Microsoft, one of the richest companies in the world, and Codies is a multi-studio multi-franchise operation, working on a few games each year. But more focused studios working on single games for two years or more are about 100 employees or more. Polyphony Digital is about 150 or so, as Kaz said in a recent interview, so they have added twenty some odd people.

Subcontracting isn't more affordable, it's just more effective at producing product in less time. Subcontractors have to make a profit, so you have to shell out more than it would cost to hire temporary employees, if you want guaranteed high quality content. And Kaz being Kaz, he prizes secrecy and team loyalty, which is understandable these days, which you can't count on sometimes even from the typical full time employee. Plus, he is pretty adamant that Gran Turismo remain a "family operation."

But regarding Standard cars and tracks, it's going to take a while to convert them. Assuming it still takes about six man-months to model a complicated car, you're looking at 350 man-years to build Premium cars from scratch to replace the Standards we have now. And with up to two years work to produce involved race locations... well, that's a few more man-decades to convert the Gran Turismo legacy tracks, which is likely what's going on. In other words, that's some serious workload.

The path of least resistance is to keep (the Standards), upgrade as many to premium where applicable, and better integrate them into the game.

Absolutely.

And after doing a whole ton of races with my Standards, I have to say that they look admirable and not the least out of place right alongside Premium cars. I should bust out the Photo Mode and get some snapshots like the other guys have, and do a "show and discuss."

 

[Downhill Dino]

Just a Q. Why can't PD ask other Sony's first party developers team to help model GT premium cars like Evolution studio or London studio? I mean PD spends more money than any racing sim out there yet they have a very little team compare to other racing game dev. (beside pc sim developers).

The quality and artistic style will vary if that is done.

 

[TheeFrogmanlego]

You do that to?! I sometimes forget that I'm supposed to go to work on tuesday. Doing it Monday through Friday for years really makes you forget about it.

I honestly forget about that since that period swapped with what I currently have tomorrow. XD and we have been on a test scheduled for three weeks * testing*
Any ways I really hope PD has re textured all the standards

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Guys I will have it ( lamp) by Thursday, i brain farted and forgot i don't go to that class tomorrow.

Ah. Now I understand why Kaz quotes six months per car.

And after doing a whole ton of races with my Standards, I have to say that they look admirable and not the least out of place right alongside Premium cars. I should bust out the Photo Mode and get some snapshots like the other guys have, and do a "show and discuss."

I'm glad you have a government job, and not one that involves great vision, then. That, or your standards are very low - which I know isn't the case, since you're very critical of a game's graphics so long as it doesn't say GT on the box.

Standards can stand beside Premiums and not look out of place, sure, if the camera is far enough away. Just like an Aztek isn't that ugly if it's a few blocks down the street.

 

[1241Penguin]

^

Note the photomode HUD, because the game wouldn't let us walk any closer to it to take a picture, thus a PVR was needed to get a close picture of Standards.

PD acknowledges that it's a problem. What they're going to do with it, we have no idea.

 

[Stumps_GTI]

I suggested the fact that standard cars have a very simple, 2D interior, and everyone just told me it was only for the open topped cars like the Suzuki and Caterham, so I actually agree with you, good to know I wasn't the only one who thought that

Oh yeah, I noticed and thought about it.
Mind you, I am no expert when it comes to graphics, 2D, 3D or otherwise.
Just thinking aloud, hoping that maybe PD could have capitalized on it....

@ regnar, I've obviously missed where half the driver body buries in the model, my bad.

Was worth the thought though....just imagine IF they could work off that platform they already have.

On a side note, totally related, there are now available new portable 3D Scanners for as little as $3000.
Small change for someone such as PD.

Would it not be possible to scan a car interior, then transfer it to a 3D program for optimization??

 

[P_Lav]

The fanboyism is rampant in this thread it's making my head hurt. And I'm a GT fan, and have been for over a decade. But in all honesty, this is getting ridiculous. Quit defending PD when they keep shoveling crap down your throat people. Standard cars in two games straight? It would not take 350 man years to model each car Tenacious D. 6 Months to model one car? Even the most slack of government "cushy" jobs would can your ass after 2 to model a car. The level of detail PD is putting into the models is whats killing it. We do not need the badge on the back of a Nissan to have one million poly's. Seriously, I do not care if my virtual cockpit does not have the little door lock pushrods sticking out the top of the door panels. The inside of my brake rotors do not need to have the cooling slots modeled in. Just make the models look good where it counts, and lets shorten the car list for f sakes, 1200 cars? What are we Wikipedia? Forza 4 has just under 600, so half, and honestly, there's not a lot of cars I could think of adding to that list.

 

[lebes14]

The fanboyism is rampant in this thread it's making my head hurt. And I'm a GT fan, and have been for over a decade. But in all honesty, this is getting ridiculous. Quit defending PD when they keep shoveling crap down your throat people. Standard cars in two games straight? It would not take 350 man years to model each car Tenacious D. 6 Months to model one car? Even the most slack of government "cushy" jobs would can your ass after 2 to model a car. The level of detail PD is putting into the models is whats killing it. We do not need the badge on the back of a Nissan to have one million poly's. Seriously, I do not care if my virtual cockpit does not have the little door lock pushrods sticking out the top of the door panels. The inside of my brake rotors do not need to have the cooling slots modeled in. Just make the models look good where it counts, and lets shorten the car list for f sakes, 1200 cars? What are we Wikipedia? Forza 4 has just under 600, so half, and honestly, there's not a lot of cars I could think of adding to that list.

I disagree, the level of detail is what makes it enjoyable. I dont use standard cars, but the level of detail in the premium cars keeps me coming back for more everyday. It wouldn't be gran turismo without that obsessive level to detail that they have.

 

[Nattefrost]

I disagree, the level of detail is what makes it enjoyable. I dont use standard cars, but the level of detail in the premium cars keeps me coming back for more everyday. It wouldn't be gran turismo without that obsessive level to detail that they have.

Of course it would still be Gran Turismo. Somehow people have got this ridiculous idea that an obsessive level of detail is what defines Gran Turismo. It isn't, and before GT5 came around I'd never heard anyone claim that. Gran Turismo is about driving a large variety of cars, from everyday affordable vehicles to dream cars to race monsters, across a bunch of circuits in a (semi-)realistic but enjoyable fashion. That's the heart and soul of Gran Turismo right there, as it was in GT, GT2, GT3, GT4 and yes, even GT5.

Having absurdly detailed interiors is NOT what makes GT enjoyable, it just seems to have become the tag line people started using to justify the entire Premium-Standard debacle, to themselves and to others. I'm all for insane detail if it makes sense from a time-resources perspective, but that clearly wasn't the case.