StarCraft 2 - Season 7 is live. Someday I'll ladder, honest

  • Thread starter Azuremen
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Casio
I think the problem with Starcraft is that it's very hard for novices. I mean, I'm a pretty big gamer. But even when I played the original I lost fun after getting my ass handed too me every time. Admittedly, the same thing happened when I was playing War3, but I stuck at it and started to hold my own. But Starcraft is so ultra competitive that it's that little bit harder to sustain playing while you learn.

I have a mate who is a massive gamer, spends half his life on FPSs and RTSs like CoH. But won't play Starcraft cause he doesn't want to spend the 6 months getting his ass handed too him before he becomes competitive.
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Well, the match making system generally means you'll be well matched. Its fairly accurate with placement in the 5 leagues (Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Diamond) with Diamond being the "gosu" players, though the difference between top tier Diamond and lower tier is massive still.

My room mate is Bronze/Silver level and he has fun, competitive (at his level) games. I am Diamond and my games are fairly well matched, and I've played professionals before and can see the highest of tiers (which is fairly insane).

I wouldn't be too worried about it. The scene though is extremely humbling to those that think they are good at a game because they can beat their real life friends. And that is what makes this game amazing, is the skill cap is relatively high, making for great high level games to watch. And with match making now, lower level players can still enjoy the online scene I feel.

Though, what tends to hurt more casual players is they just develop some very poor habits and get hung up on certain concepts, like counters. So many people get stuck on the idea of "I have to have this unit to beat the unit my enemy has" and so on. Which leads to ugly transitions and such.

On a separate note, completed the campaign. And needless to say, it is quite good.
 
The thing I see with Starcraft is that the units are too expendable, which may throw off-balance a lot of players, myself included.
 
Just finished the campaign. I think it's time to start playing against folks online. We should organize some sort of GTP group.
 
Azuremen
Haha, sounds like what happens when a novice hits the online scene in StarCraft.

Medics are in the campaign only, so thats why you couldn't make them.

As for resource collection, no one newer to the game builds enough SCVs/Drones/Probes ever. I usually train them non-stop till I have about 30 at which point I've expanded and thus I am training even more.
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Yeah sometime after our 1 play session I read somewhere that not all SP Campaign units are available online. I was a little, let's say, displeased at the revelation ;).

I know it is just part of the game, but guh, resource collection fills me with so much tired head.

Still undecided if I'll really give this game a go or not. Right now I pretty well immersed in WH 40K: Dawn of War 2 and I gotta admit its style of play so far is much more preferable to me. I'm really, really enjoying DoW2 I can't lie :D.
 
Coxis
The thing I see with Starcraft is that the units are too expendable, which may throw off-balance a lot of players, myself included.
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But they aren't really. At least at higher levels, every unit counts. You'll see people dance Marines around to keep them alive in multi-player games, and as a Protoss player, every unit I lose hurts. A lot.

Danoff
Just finished the campaign. I think it's time to start playing against folks online. We should organize some sort of GTP group.
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Agreed, would be nice to get a GTP group together. I could compile a list of Character names and Codes in the original post.

icelt
Still undecided if I'll really give this game a go or not. Right now I pretty well immersed in WH 40K: Dawn of War 2 and I gotta admit its style of play so far is much more preferable to me. I'm really, really enjoying DoW2 I can't lie :D.
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I've yet to play a 40k game. Which is a touch amusing I feel because I have a 2000 point Eldar army sitting in my closet for the table top game.
 
Azuremen
I've yet to play a 40k game. Which is a touch amusing I feel because I have a 2000 point Eldar army sitting in my closet for the table top game.
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TBH this is the 1st 40k game I've played as well, TT or computer. So please take that into consideration.

That being said, DoW2 is awesome. The gameplay quite entertaining, although very different from SC2, and is basically a mash-up of RTS minus resource gathering, RPG and squad based tactical genres. In SP you control a maximum of 4 squads. 1st is your Force Commander (FC), 2nd is typically a 4 person light assault unit, 3rd is typ a 3 person heavy assault unit and the 4th a 3 person recon unit. Although as you progress in the campaign you can swap in new squads as they are unlocked and as you see fit.

So right off you'll notice how different the gameplay must feel when at most you are only commanding 11 total individuals. It makes everything very much more focused, and likewise, disastrous potentially if during a heavy firefight you lose maybe even 1 member, not to mention ramifications of losing a whole squad.

The RPG elements show up via the leveling up of stats (vitality, ranged combat, melee combat & energy), upgrading equipment and utilizing special abilities mechanics. Also most missions end up in a boss fight, and so far, they have each been reasonably unique, challenging and quite enjoyable.

On the missions front, there is no doubt DoW2 does not ahve the supreme levels of polish and variety that SC2 does. Hopefully that is understandable givinen the development and sales realities involved. But as long as you know going in, as I did, that things will get a bit repetitive then the I think the negative reaction is reasonably tempered. The one thing SC2 can't touch, IMHO, is the gritty, devastating and overall "badass" feel of battle factor that DoW2 has going for it. Also Relic's choice of going the "space opera" route regarding the music composition is vastly more enjoyable.

MP wise, welp I've only played 2 games, so I'm not a great resource there.

I think the gametrailers review does a pretty fair job of introducing one to unique charms of this game:
http://www.gametrailers.com/game/warhammer-40-000-dawn-of/6584?show=Reviews#Content

Don't forget to check out the expansion's, Chaos Rising, review as well:
http://www.gametrailers.com/game/warhammer-40-000-dawn-of/12302?show=Reviews#Content

Lastly I'll note that both can be had in the form of the Gold Edition package ;). Oh yeah, there is a demo on steam.
 
Azuremen
I think you are confusing Macros with Macro. Macro is the ablity to develop the game economy and timings correctly to optimize troop production and timings. A solid Macro means a player will focus more on producing an army than micro'ing each unit.

I myself have an APM (actions per minute) of over 100, and top level players sit closer to 300. We really can just build a massive army before many newer players have a force at all.

Reminds me of a game in my placement matches in the beta where I had an army that was literally 3 times larger than my opponents 8 minutes into the game, and of higher tech.

Here is a stream put up by MoMaN, a professional and multi time ESL champ. I've played him before, he is quite good. And listens to epic music while playing :lol:
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What's a macros then? A type of computer or something?:lol: What does micro'ing a unit mean? I always tease my brother when he plays, telling him he's losing from the second the game starts, because of how fast everyone else online is. Even then, he's better than I am, hence the reason I haven't bothered with the game as yet.
I was a bit disappointed to see all the extra units in offline campaign as opposed to online, it's sort of like standard cars vs premium cars.;);)
 
The campaign has more units because balance isn't much of an issue. Online balance mechanics would be much more difficult to manage, and many units are redundant 90% of the time (Wraith as anti air, Viking as anti air).

Micro is controlling units, such as pulling wounded units back from the front lines so they won't die.

A macro, or macros, outside of an RTS, refer to binding a set of commands to a key, more or less automating a series of keystrokes to reduce the work done by the player. These are common in WoW, and Blizzard has okay'd them there provided they don't have delay timers. An example would be you cast Spells A, B, C, D before combat, and rather than pressing each key, you just bind a macro to one key for A, B, C, D so its a single key stroke.

These are banned in virtually all sanctioned play in StarCraft and frowned upon in general by the community.

Most people online aren't that great. A fairly basic understanding of game mechanics will get you into Gold generally, mostly with focus on macro'ing an army. Beyond that, micro becomes more relevant, along with extended game plans (40 minutes or so) with proper transitions and such.

Yes there is a high skill cap and a lot of depth to the, which is why Brood War became a national sport in South Korea and is still played over a decade later.
 
Coxis
Terran had a lot of changes, and in general, air combat is what changed the most it seems. The air units added in Broodwar are gone, I had actually grown to love the Valkyries.

I really, really, really miss the Science Vessel.
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Big fail on you mate - Science Vessel can be researched in the Single player part (-:

Just noticed meself - hence the delay ;-)
 
Azuremen
The campaign has more units because balance isn't much of an issue. Online balance mechanics would be much more difficult to manage, and many units are redundant 90% of the time (Wraith as anti air, Viking as anti air).

Micro is controlling units, such as pulling wounded units back from the front lines so they won't die.

A macro, or macros, outside of an RTS, refer to binding a set of commands to a key, more or less automating a series of keystrokes to reduce the work done by the player. These are common in WoW, and Blizzard has okay'd them there provided they don't have delay timers. An example would be you cast Spells A, B, C, D before combat, and rather than pressing each key, you just bind a macro to one key for A, B, C, D so its a single key stroke.

These are banned in virtually all sanctioned play in StarCraft and frowned upon in general by the community.

Most people online aren't that great. A fairly basic understanding of game mechanics will get you into Gold generally, mostly with focus on macro'ing an army. Beyond that, micro becomes more relevant, along with extended game plans (40 minutes or so) with proper transitions and such.

Yes there is a high skill cap and a lot of depth to the, which is why Brood War became a national sport in South Korea and is still played over a decade later.
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Right, but still most people use the macro function and regular players like us just can't keep up. My brother is in Bronze league, and he's always been half decent at strategy games.
 
Paulie
Right, but still most people use the macro function and regular players like us just can't keep up. My brother is in Bronze league, and he's always been half decent at strategy games.
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Most people don't use the macro from what I've read. Only a few situations they are terribly useful with SC2, such as inject larva and even then a good player will still outplay the macro user.

And, honestly, Bronze is a large catch all that most "casual" players end up in. Like I said before, most players that think they are good because they can beat their friends at a LAN are generally terrible in real games, because the environment is completely different.
 
So I've been practicing against the computer. I've gotten to the point where I'm about 50/50 against a "Very Hard" computer opponent. I figure I need to be able to beat that more regularly before I can hang with the online crowd.
 
Danoff
So I've been practicing against the computer. I've gotten to the point where I'm about 50/50 against a "Very Hard" computer opponent. I figure I need to be able to beat that more regularly before I can hang with the online crowd.
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And you've learned solid macro off it, now to just learn how to react to humans and play styles that aren't early aggression from your opponent.

I'm hoping more players on GTP are interested in SC2, and aren't intimidated by the multiplayer.
 
versus the computer is much different then versus humans. In Brood War, and some say also in sc2, playing against the computer can make you worse because you learn to exploit the flaws in the computer algorithm instead of actually out strategizing your opponent. Azureman what is your bnet name/identifier? Would like to add some more practice partners to my friends list!

Currently ~50 Diamond myself. My name is VoltsShock char code 311
 
I've gone and added you Scion, my info is Azire.748

Just hit 800 points after putting down a couple of more games today. Really need to break 1000+ during this next week, seeing as how I still haven't played more than 100 1v1 games since release...

Also, over in Korea, the GSL is going on, and can be watched on GOMtv.net if you feel like dealing with the sign up process; or the late US hours at which the games are broadcast live.
 
Yea so I ranked Gold after moving into multiplayer for a bit. Not sure this is really what I'm after out of starcraft though. It pits me against players that are about as good as I am - which is a good idea for the multiplayer system but isn't what I usually like out of a game. I like to win - a lot. Like, well over 50% of the time. I like a challenging victory for sure, but I like a victory none-the-less. I've noticed that a lot of players online have just slightly over 50% wins. I think this is what battle.net is trying to achieve and it's a good system.

I just think it's going to limit my online play - because I don't play the game to get stressed out. I play to relax and have some fun.

What do you think Azure? You obviously really enjoy online play, what am I missing?
 
Danoff
Yea so I ranked Gold after moving into multiplayer for a bit. Not sure this is really what I'm after out of starcraft though. It pits me against players that are about as good as I am - which is a good idea for the multiplayer system but isn't what I usually like out of a game. I like to win - a lot. Like, well over 50% of the time. I like a challenging victory for sure, but I like a victory none-the-less. I've noticed that a lot of players online have just slightly over 50% wins. I think this is what battle.net is trying to achieve and it's a good system.

I just think it's going to limit my online play - because I don't play the game to get stressed out. I play to relax and have some fun.

What do you think Azure? You obviously really enjoy online play, what am I missing?
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I am to improve my game play. And you will improve and will advance upwards. Honestly, a win rate over 50% is impressive, and the system does aim for that. The skill cap in this game is so high that you can always improve, and that there will always be someone that can roll you (unless you go pro), so I just aim to improve.

I also just enjoy the challenge of playing an equally skilled opponent; if it was easy to win all the time it would be boring. And if all I wanted was to win, I could just play the AI since it is predictable and boring. Plus the feeling of awesome when you do some clever thing just right (Feedback then Storm a Medivac, etc) that is just great in mid game.

But really, just don't worry much about winning and losing and just focus on learning the game.
 
Danoff
Do you play basically all of your games online? How do you practice a new technique?
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All my games are online at this point.

If I want to test a timing, I'll use YABOT (Yet Another Build Order Tester) or I'll play against a friend or a practice partner. Or I'll just test new things in ranked matches, and just take the loss or see that it works.

However, I have an odd project at the moment that I am using one of my trial passes for - getting into Diamond as Zerg without ever building a Queen. Just beat an 800 point Diamond Zerg doing this; the replay can be found here (TwentyFour is me). This experiment is rapidly improving my Zerg play, and helping me to explore some odd options with them.
 
Realized yesterday that I'm not hatching out nearly early enough. I think that's been holding me back. I was expanding at like 30+ units.
 
Danoff
Realized yesterday that I'm not hatching out nearly early enough. I think that's been holding me back. I was expanding at like 30+ units.
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If I don't scout an early Reaper or 2 Gate, I'll generally try to put down my 2nd hatch before my spawning pool, like 15 Hatch, 15 Pool, 14 Gas. Some games I've been taking a 3rd before 30 food, but that is because of the queen thing I am doing.
 
Azuremen
Just beat an 800 point Diamond Zerg doing this; the replay can be found here (TwentyFour is me). This experiment is rapidly improving my Zerg play, and helping me to explore some odd options with them.
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I'm fairly shocked that you won that game. Several times I thought you'd had it. I'm especially shocked given how locked-in you were for so long. Nice job. Another question while I'm thinking of it - why did you go with roaches? You didn't use them much.
 
Danoff
I'm fairly shocked that you won that game. Several times I thought you'd had it. I'm especially shocked given how locked-in you were for so long. Nice job. Another question while I'm thinking of it - why did you go with roaches? You didn't use them much.
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The Roaches have been my response to Baneling/Speedling pressure. They can wall off a ramp if you have 3, and are more cost effective than Lings for Larva cost. Since I was not using Queens, Larva are a huge deal, and I wanted to keep making drones so I could tech a bit better. And with the Banelings, it takes about 8 to kill a roach, so they are very effective at taking hits (more so than a Spine Crawler at 5 Banelings) and with speed, sniping incoming Banelings. I did over commit to them later on in the game, but they helped prevent further lings from being effective and did damage when I counter pushed.

A fast expand with Protoss will, at the earliest, be around 17 (but that is Forge + Cannon wall off) while more typically, it is around 30 food for a quick expo, and around 40 to 50 with most timings I am see on the ladder.
 
Ok necroing this thread. I have always been a fan of the Warcraft series, played all 3 RTS games, and I recently started playing Warcraft 3 again. I'm intrigued by Starcraft, but I never played the first one.

What's the learning curve like? I've heard all the horror stories about crazy Koreans killing everyone, and I've certainly had that happen to me in WC2 and WC3. In relation to warcraft 3, what's the gameplay like? Is it more focused on micro or macro?
 
It is more of a Macro game for sure, though strong Micro is a nice thing to have. The learning curve isn't as bad as some make it out to be, and if you are familiar with WC3, most of it should make sense to you (how a tech tree works, that you need harvesters, etc) with just needing to learn the game specific stuffs.

The league system does mean you'll be playing players of similar skill, roughly. And the new UI improvements (multi-building select, etc) reduce the raw APM needed to be top tier at this game.
 

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