StarCraft 2 - Season 7 is live. Someday I'll ladder, honest

[Coxis]

However, I have an odd project at the moment that I am using one of my trial passes for - getting into Diamond as Zerg without ever building a Queen.

May I ask why? I know you're a pro at the game and I'm not really that familiar with the Zerg, but I don't see a point to not building queens... Don't they inject larva on the hatcheries so you don't have to build multiples like you had to in BW? What new options have been discovered?

Eventually I want to at least know how to decently handle all three races, not just Terran that's why I ask.

 

[Azuremen]

May I ask why? I know you're a pro at the game and I'm not really that familiar with the Zerg, but I don't see a point to not building queens... Don't they inject larva on the hatcheries so you don't have to build multiples like you had to in BW? What new options have been discovered?

Eventually I want to at least know how to decently handle all three races, not just Terran that's why I ask.

Oh, it was because of Day9. It was neat to see how fast lair tech could come out and a third base could be setup if queens were skipped.

 

[Coxis]

Bump. Might as well get a discussion going...

What do you guys think about the most recent patch? I'm more specifically asking about the supply depot requirement for the rax.

In my opinion, it limits a terran's choice of builds at the start, not to mention that it changes the dynamics of the game in a negative way. People will say "Well, Protoss need to build a pylon before their gateways so it's fair" but that is besides the point... I think it affects one of the terran's main traits: The fact that they can build anywhere. Protoss need a pylon, sure, because they need it to power up their initial gateway. Terran does not share the Protoss' and Zerg's building limitation.

All of this to indirectly nerf an already not so useful unit to begin with, the reaper.

This is all my opinion and you should take it with a grain of salt, I've played a lot of SC before and after BW came out as well as SC2. I'm really bad at the game (not being modest). Azuremen can attest to that!

Discuss.

 

[Azuremen]

All the depot before barracks does is delay any super early play by 30 seconds (build time on the barracks) and prevents the rather cheesy all in play that dominates mid ladder.

Aside from that, it isn't much of an issue anyhow because Terran has so many early game options as it stands, between Reapers, Hellions, Marine all in, etc.

And it also cut the nearly impossible to stop nature of a Reaper Marauder push off a 7 or 8 rax against Protoss. It was simply not possible to scout it fast enough in most cases to react properly, since a properly micro'd reaper can handle Zealots till a Marauder gets there for the Stalker that must come out.

Most of the Terran players that have been complaining about this are those that rely heavily on gimmicky play style (Banshee rush, Proxy reaper, etc) rather than core gameplay focus. It hasn't changed the game nearly as much as the Roach range adjustment or requiring a Factory for Reaper Speed.

 

[Coxis]

I guess what bothers me is the sudden change, considering the Terran had that trait ever since the first game. I don't care about cheese strategies.

What is your opinion on reapers?

 

[Azuremen]

I guess what bothers me is the sudden change, considering the Terran had that trait ever since the first game. I don't care about cheese strategies.

What is your opinion on reapers?

Reapers at the moment are only good for some later scouting if you'd rather not spend the scan and don't mind having 2 fewer Marines from a Barracks at that point (fine if teching), and it is cost effective since a Scan costs a MULE which is 300 minerals. Beyond that, they are very limited, as the new Roach buff makes it impossible to kite them endlessly, and they don't work well against Protoss once Stalkers are on the field; same for Terran and Marauders. They could possibly be used for late game harass, but you'd still need 3 or 4 to be effective, and that's 200 seconds of lost time on a Barracks.

But as it is stands, I kind of put them with Carriers - an awkward unit that looks neat on paper now but isn't really that useful.

 

[Coxis]

What would make them viable in your opinion? I sometimes wonder if they'd be viable in the terran's bio ball if they had more HP... possibly lower the cost to 25 gas because at 50 gas, I'd rather have 2 marauders out. It's sad to see that there are units that are simply useless for most circumstances, but I guess that's happened ever since the first game.

 

[Azuremen]

They are meant to be a harassment unit. They wouldn't be so worthless if Terran didn't have better options like the Hellion, Banshee, Drops, or even Raven harass. They are just a bit too redundant with other units now.

And Blizzard never really put much thought into balancing them. Why do they have to destroy buildings so damn fast, it is just retarded.

 

[Casio]

I'm a bit slow but I'm buying SC2 tonight so watch the **** out cause I'll probably dominate.

 

[Casio]

Wait. There is like region locking and crap? So I can't play against you US guys?

 

[Azuremen]

Wait. There is like region locking and crap? So I can't play against you US guys?

Oh, you did revive my thread and simply hadn't checked

There is some region locking, but the SEA servers, which include Australia, is cross realm to the NA servers. Well, you can change your gateway to NA so you don't have to play against Malaysians and such. And means you can play against me. Which you might friend discouraging

 

[Casio]

Oh, you did revive my thread and simply hadn't checked

There is some region locking, but the SEA servers, which include Australia, is cross realm to the NA servers. Well, you can change your gateway to NA so you don't have to play against Malaysians and such. And means you can play against me. Which you might friend discouraging

So far I'm just playing Novice server and haven't lost a game yet. Seriously are some of these guys for real? I'm not super awesome yet, as I haven't played SC1 in about 4 years, but seriously this is crazy.

My last game all the guy built was Banshee's with clokes (seriously he didn't build any other units other than MCV's for 9 minutes), then was telling me after the game that I shouldn't be playing on this server and that I'm getting cheap kills.

 

[Coxis]

So who likes the addition of chat channels? Yes, most of what happens in them is pure nonsense, but I did miss meeting people and making friends like in the good old days of B.net

 

[Azuremen]

So far I'm just playing Novice server and haven't lost a game yet. Seriously are some of these guys for real? I'm not super awesome yet, as I haven't played SC1 in about 4 years, but seriously this is crazy.

My last game all the guy built was Banshee's with clokes (seriously he didn't build any other units other than MCV's for 9 minutes), then was telling me after the game that I shouldn't be playing on this server and that I'm getting cheap kills.

Don't play Novice (Practice league, correct?) matches. They are at a slower game speed and the rocks at the chokes simply do not let you learn how to actually play.

The Chat channels are a very nice addition, though the public ones are filled to the brim with idiots. Private ones are fairly nice but we need to have mods for those soon, as I fear they will get out of hand.

 

[Casio]

I'm out of Novice but unfortunately lost my first 3 league games. All against Protoss. All against mass Void Rays. Fun fun.

I like how the Terran Anti-Air Turret can be taken down my Void Ray's in 0.5 seconds... Guess I need to get better and get some of those Anti-Air planes (forgot the name, Vikings?) up sooner?

 

[Azuremen]

I'm out of Novice but unfortunately lost my first 3 league games. All against Protoss. All against mass Void Rays. Fun fun.

I like how the Terran Anti-Air Turret can be taken down my Void Ray's in 0.5 seconds... Guess I need to get better and get some of those Anti-Air planes (forgot the name, Vikings?) up sooner?

No you just need to go kill them, lmao. Void Rays are super expensive and take ages to get up. If they are just flying in with 3 or more you are doing something terribly wrong. Also, 5 marines with Stim will wreck a single Void ray insanely fast.

Just learn the 3 barracks into expand build. Push at 51 supply with stim and concussive shells. Kill virtually every Protoss well into Diamond if you execute it smoothly at all.

 

[Casio]

Was playing over the weekend and won a few games. I reckon some of these guys are no way bronze though....

Been working on 2/3 barracks and it's working pretty well. Though one thing I have been stopping is reapers and going for more an Marine and Marauder build, and trying to get to Banshee's earlier, it seems to work, but maybe I'm just playing noobs.

 

[Azuremen]

Was playing over the weekend and won a few games. I reckon some of these guys are no way bronze though....

Been working on 2/3 barracks and it's working pretty well. Though one thing I have been stopping is reapers and going for more an Marine and Marauder build, and trying to get to Banshee's earlier, it seems to work, but maybe I'm just playing noobs.

Repears are god awful, and should only be used by people with exceptional control and plans for them.

Other than that, 2 or 3 rax style openings into expand are very strong, followed by adding on a Starport for Medivacs and Vikings (if Colossi are out). Banshee harass will likely end the game immediately for many players as well, as most people simply do not know how to react to anything like that. They either just die or completely over react and put themselves far behind in terms of economy.

I play Protoss, but here is a replay so you can get an idea of the crap I deal with on ladder.

PvT Steppes of War - Diamond League

 

[Casio]

Yeah, I have a feeling reapers may have been better earlier when you didn't need supply before barracks, get them out super early to kill workers, but now saving for reapers leaves you pretty open to counter attack. Though I think they could work well on some maps where the minerally are next to a cliff, they also seem to dominate novice maps.

 

[Azuremen]

Reapers are bad. The only time I see someone using one is for scouting. They take 50 seconds to train, so if I see more than one I can safely assume they have no actual units. The other thing was they were highly effective against Zerg because of kiting due to Roach range being 3 and Reaper speed being immediately available.

If you want to learn about the game, Day9 is an awesome resource. Plus a pretty cool dude too, from what I've heard.

 

[Coxis]

For terran, is it viable/advisable to try and do an early push without heal buses?

 

[Azuremen]

For terran, is it viable/advisable to try and do an early push without heal buses?

Absolutely. And with Stim. 51 food push from 3 rax or just general 2 rax pressure into expand followed by 5 rax pressure while adding on Medivacs slowly. At least against Protoss. Against Zerg, Marine and Tank play is far more standard so Medivacs tend to come out much later due to the gas demands of Tanks.

But yes, I generally research Stim Packs immediately after Concussive shells.

 

[Casio]

Fail. 2.5 Hour loss.

 

[Casio]

So this is a game I played recently. Pretty similar to my other games. If I could get any feedback on how to defeat these types of player, or just on my game in general. It would be much appreciated.

Again I feel like I'm up at the start, but can't find my way in. In the end he just turtled so much I kinda gave up.

I'm on the top right. In red.

 

[nanabu]

i´ve watched that replay for about 22mins and i wish i had enemies like you both together

iam not a pro but neither iam a noob .

8th worker is going to ramp and is waiting ,
15th supp 4 in production ,
18th supp still no 2nd rax or techlab ,
your enemy is going the famous "one one one" build you are doing something ...odd ,your supply depo placement is something new never saw something like that the bunker behind is useless
9min passes and you have 28 workers thats way to many
,10min passes and you still dont have a orbital command ,
no expansion no scout , just place 1 worker to a nice place outside of your base , 12:30min you are attacking ...
your army gets demolished you have no clue what is in his base no vision at all , 14 mins you have 40 workers in 1 base and you minerals are very low ,and you are starting 1 expansion ,
16min mass banshee no cloak still no scout ,
18 min you dont have any minerlas in your base , 19min supply blocked ,
you move out with banshee tank marines marauders ,.. still no vision of that base and you dont have any medivacs to support your bio , you dont have nukes no battlecruiser no reaper for scout .

well we in europe .. we play a bit diffrent , our games takes like 12mins ...

first you produce 3 workers if the 2nd finishes you can build a supdepo by 13 supp you can start with a rax and you send 1 worker out to scout , by 16 worker you can make a 2nd rax and orbital command 17 supp 1 marine , destroy the enemy scout if there is one , 18 -19supply you can make a 2nd suppdepo and 3rd rax , and start pumping out marines .. marines marines marines , by 30-33 supply you take atleast 8workers with your marines to the enemy base the time is 5:40-6:10 for this push not later , rush in there and own him make a bunker in his base by the way dont stop pumping out marines and send them direct to the enemy base , even if you dont have scv´s in your base you can use the MULES alright . this works very good if you deny his scout .

there are soo any terran strategies , Thor drop, banshe cloak harras + marines bunker rush , or medivacs bio mobile harrass and so on .

i hope you dont take this advise offensive , you may look for replays from TLO , MakaPrime , Jinro, Morrow and strelok , you may visit this site http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Terran_Strategy and watch replays from pro games in first person view thats important just note when he is doing what

hfgl

 

[Azuremen]

9min passes and you have 28 workers thats way to many

I haven't reviewed the replay yet but this is probably the worst piece of advice I've seen. You should never stop making workers unless you are going to all-in. Otherwise, produce workers constantly so when you expand you can transfer half and have a fairly saturated base.

Casio, I looked over the replay briefly. There are about a million things I could go off about in core basics, but I'll just mention key points.

Build Supply Depots 2 supply before you will hit cap till you are on 3 production structures. Thus, 9 or 10 supply, 17/19, and 25/27, etc. Once you are on 3 production structures, just build them back to back.

You should convert your Command Center to Orbital Command at 16 supply, basically after the Barracks finishes and the SCV in production is done.

When you push out, you have a 50 food advantage. You could've easily won the game at that point. Tanks can shoot further than they can see, so get Vikings or Medivacs to spot for them during engagements. You would've easily broken his ramp with some positional play with spotting. You can also use Com Scan to spot as well.

Related to pushing out, try to expand at around 50 to 60 supply if you can. In this case, pushing out and applying pressure is an excellent way to do this, provided you don't suicide up a ramp into siege tanks.

You should review some fundamental builds so you can get an idea of core timings. This link has links to several core builds, along with discussion on unit usage in the match-ups. The 1/1/1 build is fairly standard in TvT, since that generally turns into Tank Viking play, while TvP is mostly focused on Barracks units with Viking support to address Colossi and Medivacs for obvious reasons. TvZ is mostly Marine Tank play, with Thors for Mutalisk play.

 

[Casio]

i hope you dont take this advise offensive , you may look for replays from TLO , MakaPrime , Jinro, Morrow and strelok , you may visit this site http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Terran_Strategy and watch replays from pro games in first person view thats important just note when he is doing what

Nah it's good to know. Even what you've said makes sense and I'll take it into the next game. But yeah, always thought I should just create workers, workers, workers whenever I can...

 

[Azuremen]

Nah it's good to know. Even what you've said makes sense and I'll take it into the next game. But yeah, always thought I should just create workers, workers, workers whenever I can...

And you should. Look at what I said.

 

[nanabu]

workers are fine but know when ! the timing is important 9min = 28 workers is still to many even Idra wouldn´t make so many

9min mark 20 workers are fine ,simple math : 8 x 50 = 400 cristal with 400 cristal at that time mark you could have 2 marauders and 4 marines or even build 2 more rax without any techlab stuff like marinekingprime is doing .. end the game as fast as you can , and a little bit of cheeeeeeese here and there is always fine , they are going to do this to you too mate so have your scout in his base or on a important place of the map .

the heavy macro games over here are only in late pro league games .
and watch the replays

 

[Azuremen]

workers are fine but know when ! the timing is important 9min = 28 workers is still to many even Idra wouldn´t make so many

9min mark 20 workers are fine ,simple math : 8 x 50 = 400 cristal with 400 cristal at that time mark you could have 2 marauders and 4 marines or even build 2 more rax without any techlab stuff like marinekingprime is doing .. end the game as fast as you can , and a little bit of cheeeeeeese here and there is always fine , they are going to do this to you too mate so have your scout in his base or on a important place of the map .

the heavy macro games over here are only in late pro league games .
and watch the replays

IdrA would be on 2 bases at 9 minutes, and would ideally like to have 50 to 60 drones if he felt he wouldn't die from over droning.

Full saturation at a base is 28 workers, 3 per gas and 22 on minerals, though 30 still shows gains. That leads to about 850 minerals per minute and 270 or so gas.

What league are you in? I play 30 minute macro games all the time, both in my practice matches and on ladder.