Tactile Info & Buyers Guide / Comparisons / Opinions - Work In Progress

  • Thread starter Mr Latte
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Thanks for all your help @Mr Latte I really appreciate it. I ordered a Noctua fan last night and couldn't wait to get it, had to open it up and get it ready for when it should arrive on Friday. I thought I had the glue all off (after warming up with my wife's hair dryer) but ended up pulling the connector that is attached to the board up about a 1/3 of the way! Good thing I noticed and was able to easily push it back down without any problem. Then I just heated it up a little more and found the last glue holding it down, then it came out properly :-) I look forward to having the whisper fan since it will be positioned very close to our seating.

Now another question hahah :-)

How would 2 Buttkicker Mini LFE's (mounted in a 3 person couch) compare to 2 AuraSound Bass Shakers in the same couch? Is it worth paying the extra for the Buttkickers?
 
The BK are piston based and have more punch for sure but really the Mini LFE is an entry level product too, so has limitations. Its like sub-woofers you get models that give a bit of bass and certainly add to the enjoyment of the experience but the higher performance comes at a price.

3 Mini LFE wont produce the the same low depth of say the Advance, but they will cover a larger surface more evenly.
Just like 3 logitech sub-woofers would fill a room full of bass, yet a single unit of something more dedicated from a quality brand would generate a much lower/deeper and better quality of bass.

Bargains can be found on ebay etc personally I would go for the advance for quality over quantity and look for a bargin. I bought some tactile for under half typical prices.
 
The BK are piston based and have more punch for sure but really the Mini LFE is an entry level product too, so has limitations. Its like sub-woofers you get models that give a bit of bass and certainly add to the enjoyment of the experience but the higher performance comes at a price.

3 Mini LFE wont produce the the same low depth of say the Advance, but they will cover a larger surface more evenly.
Just like 3 logitech sub-woofers would fill a room full of bass, yet a single unit of something more dedicated from a quality brand would generate a much lower/deeper and better quality of bass.

Bargains can be found on ebay etc personally I would go for the advance for quality over quantity and look for a bargin. I bought some tactile for under half typical prices.
Mr.Latte have you had any experience with earthquake mini shakers? I was ordering mini lfe and the tech asked me about these as an option he said they were more expensive at 171.00 apiece but a awesome product
 
Not personally, though many years ago before even getting into tactile myself I remember reading on an AV Forums some guy that invited 2-3 people over and they did a comparison of different units on his couch. It may of been on the bigger models but from that test the LFE (fullsize) was regarded the best for LFE duties.

How the Mini LFE or smaller Quake compares to each other I am not sure but you may find answers or users on AVS forums. In my time/research I did not come across references that the Earthquake models had any major advantages and the BK models are much more common/popular it seems.

The Advance fits in between giving a good deal more impact than the Mini or I assume the smaller Earthquake models, yey still only needs reasonable amplification. The fullsize LFE is not much more expensive and is a great deal more powerful but the problem is the amplification to power around 800-1000 watts to make them feel anyway good even though they go to approx 1500 watts. I have only ever ran mine on the DSP inuke 3000 and 6000 amps.
 
Hello,

I am new to this tactile feedback. If I were to follow your advice and get two Buttkicker Mini LFE where and how would I mount them onto this rig: http://www.pagnianimports.com.au/media//3_screens.jpg; on the side plates (inside or oustide)? or bars two parellel bars underneath? Also how could it be done? Is drilling holes the only way? If you need more detail I can take photos and post them.

Also how many transducers could you use with the Behringer iNuke NU1000 DSP, and can the unit be lied on its side?
 
The answer is you get creative and rather than just mount them to where you think will be best. Allow trying several positions. While not ideal a BK mini mounted to a surface that has additional bolts to another surface allows you to sandwich your frame in between and clamp onto. Yet move it for testing placements. A test mounting solution does not need to be a final one. Also if on wooden floor you may need to consider rubber isolators or a platform to dampen the vibrations. If on concrete it is not an issue.

Alternatively a surface drilled and bolted to your frame and then the BK bolted to this (like a plate) offers a secure fixed position. So I personally would do both and when you find a location that works well consider to make it a fix secured one.

Most amplifiers are STEREO with 2 inputs so only 2 Simvibe Channels. You need to learn about Ohms with 4ohm being most common on tactile.
 
What do you guys think of the http://www.thebuttkicker.com/bka1000-n they say it powers up to 8 buttkicker mini lfe?

Please take note and understand, this is very simple...
All Buttkicker Amps are MONO based, so yes you could have a sofa with 8 Mini LFE or indeed 2 or 4 fullsize LFE powered by that amp but they all will only produce the same single MONO signal to all units.

It is fine for home cinema application using a MONO based "Subwoofer Output" commonly referred to as the ".1 Channel" or "Low Frequency Effects" but is not designed for STEREO or MULTICHANNEL tactile sources or experiences.
 
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Please take note and understand, this is very simple...
All Buttkicker Amps are MONO based, so yes you could have a sofa with 8 Mini LFE or indeed 2 or 4 fullsize LFE powered by that amp but they all will only produce the same single MONO signal to all units.

It is fine for home cinema application using a MONO based "Subwoofer Output" commonly referred to as the ".1 Channel" or "Low Frequency Effects" but is not designed for STEREO or MULTICHANNEL tactile sources or experiences.

Yeh I understand that, I was looking to see whether it was multi channel, but couldnt find so in the specs.

I was looking at the Thomman amps and came across these two: http://www.thomann.de/intl/the_tamp_e4_130.htm; http://www.thomann.de/intl/the_tamp_e4_250.htm;
The first is 4 channel 200 Watt at 4 ohms and the second is 400 Watt at 4 ohms; which is more suitable for the BK Mini LFE? I Just want to confirm that the 400 WATT is better because you say its better to be on the safe side, even though others have said that Bk mini LFE run at only half their max wattage with simvibe (or something likethat).
 
Links dont work friend, please if these products are same as those already in the Tactile Guide then I have offered my thoughts on them.

The issue you raise about excessive wattage being available, if an amp offers detection of overpowering or clipping they usually have an led light to highlight when you are overloading the unit. The difference with the inuke DSP models is that you can manually set a digital limiter for the amp not to exceed a set wattage (whatever you want) and save the settings.

One at best will highlight when clipping happens which may be damaging your tactile unit the other eliminates it being possible yet also offers the same monitoring too of when it happens.

If an amp does not offer a clip light/led feature then you will not know when you are overpowering or what wattage you are delivering at any given time.

I doubt you would be using Mini LFE much beyond 100-150 watts with Simvibe having a rather high dynamic output. The point of that is so the signal is strong prior to amplification so it helps with lower powered amplifiers. This does not mean that other sources such as a .1 channel also can not have a high dynamic output (or adjusted via say an AV Receiver) just that Simvibe uses such by default.

If you have an amplifier that operates at 100 watt and you want to utilise all of its output power then that amplifier is constantly operating at its limits. If you have a 200 watt or 400 watt capable amplifier but typically delivering in the 100 watt range or even to the 150 watts these are doing so well within their maximum capacity.

Also from personal experience I would add that the little Mini LFE units will struggle with much more wattage than 100-150 watts in most real world usage scenarios even if the listed specs state otherwise.
 
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Mr Latte,

Do you recommend against only two transducers on both sides of seat for 'Chassis mode'? What kinda feedback would you miss out on when you only have two transducers as opposed to four, or stereo as opposed to quad?
 
Mr Latte,

Do you recommend against only two transducers on both sides of seat for 'Chassis mode'? What kinda feedback would you miss out on when you only have two transducers as opposed to four, or stereo as opposed to quad?

I recommend people do various placement tests for their own cockpits and tactile. Most people just want a quick install and get going, generally they wont experiment. Yes on some cockpits moving the tactile around might not bring big differences but it is dependant on what the user has. By doing placement or installation tests and considering isolation is how you determine that you are getting the most out of what you have or find personal preference too. You may find lots of help but plenty of waffling in the "Mr Latte Question" thread as it covers lots of different factors or ideas and Simvibe potential.

With 2 tactile on Pedals and 2 on seat you are better representing the front and rear wheels. From an immersion perspective you are also incorporating your feet and not relying only to your butt/thighs to detect 4 directions or individual sensations. Also having 4 individual channels working against each other on one confined surface area will perhaps introduce tactile cancellation issues.

On a seat you will feel the vibrations going into your sides and back region it just depends on various factors of the installation,materials,tactile used etc. If you include more body regions then how your brain detects/perceives the immersion will in my view be a better experience.

Do you have a bucket seat, a recliner seat, these are factors that are important to maybe what you should consider. Some recline type seats have internal metal structures that help transmit the tactile. A bucket seat does not but is mainly one solid mold component. I have owned both but used different installation methods for both due to their structure/design.

Some alternatives to consider like do you go all in to your max budget now with more entry level equipment, or do you get fewer but better components and start with higher performance tactile/amp running only perhaps STEREO but working towards building eventually a much better performing set-up?

--------------------------

4 Units on Seat

Having 4 units working as CM on the seat was something I considered and still could do if I wanted with my own config but really the seat alone might not be big enough region to properly convey the transitions or distance of four wheels. I opted to run 2x sets of Rear tactile for greater dispersion but use mine in a unique way operating also with dual LFE for low end performance and an additional unit on the back of the seat for engine enhancement. So 7 units working on a seat but working in unison not all on different channels is a very different thing. Basically it is the REAR wheels and 1 Extension taken to the extreme.

I am not saying some success with all 4 CM on a seat isn't possible but with even brushing potential tactile cancellation aside. It is likely that the felt sensation from the front wheels to the rear will become harder to determine their actual differences. Berney from SimXperience once talked about this and was against it, saying such was too direct with the tactile on the seat from the point of installation to the time/distance of you feeling it.

Again I highlight that with the inuke DSP it is possible to get a work around for this issue of using units in a small confined configuration like a seat or even on a smaller cockpit using pedals/seat. You can add digital delay to the signal for the Rear which helps give a greater sensation of spacial presence/size between the front/rear wheels. Although physically they are beside or close to each other the usage of delay can give the impression they are further apart.


I know these replies are long, bad habbit but think you need to consider how far you want to go with it or how far you think you might want to take it. Best thing to do is in one of your threads add pictures of your cockpit, bring in your own personality and thoughts/concerns/desires you want from it and people will likely respond better than to just questions. Many will be able to relate to what you want to do or may be considering similar in the future.

This thread was meant to be more about tactile components but I never finished it, maybe one day though. I got a bit annoyed putting in all the effort to help others yet nobody still even yet in buying the ADX units responded to my query of them and the Aura Pro. Something I wanted to learn and understand myself.

Also the Question thread became very time consuming...
 
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I recommend people do various placement tests for their own cockpits and tactile. Most people just want a quick install and get going, generally they wont experiment. Yes on some cockpits moving the tactile around might not bring big differences but it is dependant on what the user has. By doing placement or installation tests and considering isolation is how you determine that you are getting the most out of what you have or find personal preference too. You may find lots of help but plenty of waffling in the "Mr Latte Question" thread as it covers lots of different factors or ideas and Simvibe potential.

With 2 tactile on Pedals and 2 on seat you are better representing the front and rear wheels. From an immersion perspective you are also incorporating your feet and not relying only to your butt/thighs to detect 4 directions or individual sensations. Also having 4 individual channels working against each other on one confined surface area will perhaps introduce tactile cancellation issues.

On a seat you will feel the vibrations going into your sides and back region it just depends on various factors of the installation,materials,tactile used etc. If you include more body regions then how your brain detects/perceives the immersion will in my view be a better experience.

Do you have a bucket seat, a recliner seat, these are factors that are important to maybe what you should consider. Some recline type seats have internal metal structures that help transmit the tactile. A bucket seat does not but is mainly one solid mold component. I have owned both but used different installation methods for both due to their structure/design.

Some alternatives to consider like do you go all in to your max budget now with more entry level equipment, or do you get fewer but better components and start with higher performance tactile/amp running only perhaps STEREO but working towards building eventually a much better performing set-up?

--------------------------

4 Units on Seat

Having 4 units working as CM on the seat was something I considered and still could do if I wanted with my own config but really the seat alone might not be big enough region to properly convey the transitions or distance of four wheels. I opted to run 2x sets of Rear tactile for greater dispersion but use mine in a unique way operating also with dual LFE for low end performance and an additional unit on the back of the seat for engine enhancement. So 7 units working on a seat but working in unison not all on different channels is a very different thing. Basically it is the REAR wheels and 1 Extension taken to the extreme.

I am not saying some success with all 4 CM on a seat isn't possible but with even brushing potential tactile cancellation aside. It is likely that the felt sensation from the front wheels to the rear will become harder to determine their actual differences. Berney from SimXperience once talked about this and was against it, saying such was too direct with the tactile on the seat from the point of installation to the time/distance of you feeling it.

Again I highlight that with the inuke DSP it is possible to get a work around for this issue of using units in a small confined configuration like a seat or even on a smaller cockpit using pedals/seat. You can add digital delay to the signal for the Rear which helps give a greater sensation of spacial presence/size between the front/rear wheels. Although physically they are beside or close to each other the usage of delay can give the impression they are further apart.


I know these replies are long, bad habbit but think you need to consider how far you want to go with it or how far you think you might want to take it. Best thing to do is in one of your threads add pictures of your cockpit, bring in your own personality and thoughts/concerns/desires you want from it and people will likely respond better than to just questions. Many will be able to relate to what you want to do or may be considering similar in the future.

This thread was meant to be more about tactile components but I never finished it, maybe one day though. I got a bit annoyed putting in all the effort to help others yet nobody still even yet in buying the ADX units would even bother to open one to confirm if internally it was the same as the Aura Pro. Something I wanted to learn and understand myself.

Also the Question thread became very time consuming...

On the matter of tactile components, can you give a quick run down on the cabling required. For example what cabling is needed for two buttkicker mini lfe connecting to behringer 1000w DSP connecting to 5.1 pc sound card? Is something like this how you connect to AMP to the sound card (https://www.videoguys.com.au/Shop/c/418/mini-to-xlr-cables.html)?
 
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Best option....

See Inuke Manual Page 17

Consider:
1x Stereo 3.5mm MALE - XLR MALE from soundcard to the amplifier A/B inputs
Something like 12-14 gauge speaker cable (see what your tactile recommends)
You need to extend the Mini LFE short cables and connect new cable going to the amp
Basic method would be to use a BLOCK connector to wire together (much cheaper)
Best method would be using easily connected/disconnected 4xMALE 2xFEMALE COUPLER NEUTRIK SPEAKON connectors.
Amp outputs for tactile also require an additional 2x MALE NEUTRIK SPEAKON

(See google images for what cables are and how to wire the SPEAKON)

Keep in mind XLR is from soundcard going in
SPEAKON are for speaker cables going out.

Hope it helps...
 
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Best option....

See Inuke Manual Page 17

Consider:
1x Stereo 3.5mm MALE - XLR MALE from soundcard to the amplifier A/B inputs
Something like 12-14 gauge speaker cable (see what your tactile recommends)
You need to extend the Mini LFE short cables and connect new cable going to the amp
Basic method would be to use a BLOCK connector to wire together (much cheaper)
Best method would be using easily connected/disconnected 4xMALE 2xFEMALE COUPLER NEUTRIK SPEAKON connectors.
Amp outputs for tactile also require an additional 2x MALE NEUTRIK SPEAKON

(See google images for what cables are and how to wire the SPEAKON)

Keep in mind XLR is from soundcard going in
SPEAKON are for speaker cables going out.

Hope it helps...
With connecting the Mini LFE short cables are you referring to this method: i.e. connect the exposed wiring to the male/female speakon connector? Also is there such thing as a 'female to male' speakon extender, where the connectors are already attached? I can't seem to find any, otherwise I have to buy the speakon connectors separately and attach them to speaker cables.
 
That is the general idea yes. Female connectors are found more on the chassis of the devices/amplifier, sorry if I was wrong in how I described this and no Female-Male type connectors.

You can get couplers that are Female-Female and then you use a male each end.
Search for best prices some places charge quite a bit for these Neutrik seem to make their own and their are also others available. They will be a great job and easily allow you to detach if ever needing to or moving the cockpit.

This
Or Like This
 
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Hello if you mind, can you quickly validate these:

2x http://www.rubbermonkey.com.au/Neut...ng-Four-Pole-High-Load-Speakon-Connector-Grey
2x http://www.rubbermonkey.com.au/Neutrik/Neutrik-NL4MMX-Speaker-Coupler
2x http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1-Metre-...451796?hash=item5afac7c154:g:8F4AAOxycmBS4dAo

In order to connect the Mini LFE via an extension to that Behringer AMP? However if I dont need extension i just need two male speakon? And does the fact that buttkicker is 14 guage wire have anything to do with what speakon connectors I need?
 
Yes those seem fine, just ensure the cable length you order is long enough.
Indeed you only need 2 Male SPEAKON for the amps speaker connections (in our case tactile) if doing basic connection for Mini LFE.

If doing SPEAKON to join the Mini LFE this is the best way to do it, even better connection than typical Hi:Fi speaker wire plugs/connectors.
 
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Does anyone have experience with the Thomann Amps? Are they reliable? I can basically get the four channel Thomann for the price of one two channel Behringer Inuke.
 
Not sure if the "t amp" range is specifically made by them if that is what you are referring to or just an oem based product they put a label on for their own branding.

Looking into it the "Manuals" they do have their name on them but have not heard/seen many cases of people using them with tactile (regards the 4 channel options) or much in ways of reviews.

Go for what you think is a good purchase, its your money/decision.
I have advised on the benefits of the DSP features with tactile but you will not get these on other/standard amps.

Although Im eager and curious to learn how well these work with 4 Buttkickers and Simvibe.
 
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What is your opinion of using springs to enhance the vibrations like in this video: , seems quite interesting, but would it be realistic?
 
I have seen that and others including the "Calves Idea". Yes this motion one was interesting and likely fun in some ways but the idea seems very flawed and I doubt its accuracy and realism. It looks crazy but If he used the DSP 6000 he would get even greater strength in it as I know how the 3000/6000 compare with the LFE. The conversion of Suspension and G forces into piston movement for a Buttkicker is to provide vibrational energy not physical or positional movement. My view is if wanting motion, use full motion, if wanting vibrational bone conduction immersion use Simvibe. Tactile should compliment a static cockpit or one with motion not try to replicate motion.

The issue I see with this is firstly it relies on a single unit for each corner, I assume it mixes Engine and other effects into the Buttkicker not just the suspension and motion based effects. So if correct, already the Chassis/Suspension Data is being corrupted. Next I ask how many effects and layers can a single LFE really clearly define, has a user doing this found a way to optimise and understand them all? I have not yet seen this anywhere. What are the best combinations of effects for various sims, what are the optimised settings for various units on the market?

Suspension with high rates of sensitivity/occurrence having to deal with not only bumps/surface data but also additional G Forces. This is a lot for a tactile unit to do never mind adding extra effects onto it. Users typically seem to drop some suspension effects (yes sims will vary what they use and the level of their detail may vary also) but nobody seems to of properly investigated this. @RW65 and myself discuss such a lot on his thread.

I by no means (while very keen/interested in learning more about Simvibe) presume to be some expert on the matter but from what I can see most people still do not have much clue about many of Simvibes features and settings never mind having discovered a way to understand what changes the Pitch/Roll/Yaw of the car. Also usage for the Vertical G, Longitudinal G, Lateral G and how/if this could be used for the very best tactile immersion for Chassis for single units or like my own testing of "Dual Role" possibilities. Even then if understanding such I still would question the point of trying to replicate motion but instead just maximise the vibrational/tactile experience and immersion.

I have a fair idea myself what effects do work on the XYZ (by my own research) but this needs confirmed by in-depth analysis. Personally have concerns how a single unit copes with all the suspension based effects with the best/most detailed sims that Simvibe offers. Many of the effects use similar frequencies, energy and high rates of timing but are being chucked in for one unit to handle. So how does a single unit define all these accurately? This is often why I think people drop effects to preserve detail for quality over quantity. Simvibe has much more potential than the common performance limits of single tactile units. Yet it needs to be better understood to get the most from it.

Personally I still seek to find a way that can maximise Simvibe's potential in a unique configuration and specifically built cockpit designed soley for tactile dispersion and ideal performance.
 
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Mr Latte do you have a motion system? And how do you compare tactile feedback to full motion rigs? If you had $3000 would you prefer tactile feedback or full motion?
 
Mr Latte do you have a motion system? And how do you compare tactile feedback to full motion rigs? If you had $3000 would you prefer tactile feedback or full motion?

Not got motion no, my own build at present is just a temporary test platfrom for tactile. I wouldn't want motion without good tactile or just what D-Box can offer and while good, I want far beyond that in tactile. I still enjoy consoles and really I am more of a casual gamer so motion was always a lot to spend, also more for dedicated sim minded people I think. Some people maybe enjoy getting moved around a lot more than others so it is just a subjective subject and not one of better in all cases or for all people. Yes what I have put into tactile over the years and on/off could of bought a motion sim but I am not seeking a standard level of tactile immersion and got drawn into the what ifs.....

Perhaps I became as much a tactile hobbyist.
I can still enjoy very good tactile immersion from music or console games even if it has restrictions to what Simvibe can do. I cant enjoy consoles on a motion sim. In most recent games usually engines are brill with my tactile hardware and the 4 subwoofers also with directional kerbs working great but road and surface detail suffers lots in titles like FM6/Drive Club etc. I think I lean more on the entertainment value of such immersion rather than the sim aspects trying to replicate the real thing.
 
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Hi Everyone!

A noobish question:
Is the SMSL SA-98E 2*160W or 160W altogether?

Should it drive two of these 100W RMS shakers?
http://www.conrad.com/ce/en/product/378979/Car-subwoofer-passive-160-mm-200-W-Sinustec-ST-BS-100-4-

I already bought this combo, am quite happy with the effects, but if I crank the volume slider over ~40% the shakers simply stop working when there is "a lot of" effect. They come back immediately when i turn the volume a little bit off, or the effects reduce.
Is this the amps over voltage protection kicking in? Or is the amp simply not enough, and the shakers could shook twice this hard? Or is this how things should normally work?

This is the amp:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SMSL-SA-98E...ier-SMSL-36V5-7A-Power-Supply-B-/121072491718
Mine has nichicon 8200uf 50v, 36V5.7A Power Supply, quality parts inside, so i don't think the amp is faulty...

Thanks!
 
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The numbers suggest that you shouldn't have a problem. But you obviously have.
I have a same problem with an amp , but I know it's the amp's defect.
 
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