Thank you PD and Kazunori for an amazing game.

[Devedander]

Misunderstanding of the meaning of thanks right here.

No it's absolutely not.

 

[gaming25]

No it's absolutely not.

Thanks means that you have an appreciation of something, and since you seem to not appreciate GT5, then you are misunderstanding the word "thanks".

 

[Devedander]

Thanks means that you have an appreciation of something, and since you seem to not appreciate GT5, then you are misunderstanding the word "thanks".

You are not understanding that I don't choose to shell out $$$ for things I don't appreciate very often...

That's the difference between a favor and a job. One gets you thanks and the other gets you paid.

Usually in both cases someone appreciates that you did whatever you did, how they express that is the difference.

 

[gaming25]

You are not understanding that I don't choose to shell out $$$ for things I don't appreciate very often...

So that means that you arent thankful for those particular things.

 

[Lain]

Did they? Why then was every part of GT better than GT5?

Every part of GT? Which one? The first one? No, certainly not. The only thing that the first GT has over any subsequent GT is that it was original when it came out.

So I'm going to assume you mean GT4. In which case you're still wrong.

There is a point where you can stay true to your vision to a fault... when it turns into an obcession that hurts the quality of the final product it's not something to be thankful for anymore....

I can't believe this is the experience that was Kaz's vision... I think Kaz's vision is far from realized right now and I am concerned that perhaps he has painted himself into a corner... he has gone too far for the PS3 to handle it gracefully and too big for it to be developed in a reasonable time, but he is also too far in the process to scale things back for the next edition of the game... I think until we see better hardware in the form of PS4 the vision may have been it's own worst enemy.

You can't stay true to your vision to a fault, unless your vision itself is faulty. I don't think Kaz's vision is faulty, but it is quite lofty. And certainly won't be appreciated at the same level by everyone.

GT5's biggest faults stem from it trying to achieve more of Kaz's vision than is reasonable for the PS3 to handle smoothly. And its biggest fault that isn't a PS3 hardware issue, the standard cars, stems from the insane amounts of effort poured into the 200+ Premium vehicles which'll likely last Polyphony through to GT7 at least.

 

[Devedander]

So that means that you arent thankful for those particular things.

I appreciate them being done, how I show my thanks is different... if it's a favor, I will offer thanks, if it's a job making a product, I will pay them.

I suppose I am thankful that I have this chair to sit on that I bought, I do not thank walmart for selling it to me or thank the maker for making it... I paid some cash for it, that's how the appreciation is expressed.

You can't stay true to your vision to a fault, unless your vision itself is faulty.

You absolutely can when the substance to support your vision is not up to the task and you don't accept that and make concessions to address that issue.

It's the very definition of trying to do too much...

 

[Devedander]

Dp

 

[Lain]

You absolutely can when the substance to support your vision is not up to the task and you don't accept that and make concessions to address that issue.

It's the very definition of trying to do too much...

Yeah, you're right. Still, GT5 doesn't suffer too greatly because of it. It's still a big improvement over GT4 in most areas, and I'm enjoying it more than Forza 3 despite its faults

 

[Rocker]

You can't stay true to your vision to a fault, unless your vision itself is faulty.

Incorrect. You are attempting to justify extremism. However nearly anything carried to its absolute end is going to be problematic. Such is the condition of being human. For example honesty is an honorable vision, and no one would disagree with that, yet almost everyone knows that honesty can easily be carried to a fault.

GT5's biggest faults stem from it trying to achieve more of Kaz's vision than is reasonable for the PS3 to handle smoothly.

This a rather broad statement, and you are stating an opinion as if it were fact. So let me state my 'factual' opinion/rebuttal.

The biggest fault is copy-protected games saves, which is NOT a PS3 limitation.

Lack of races is perhaps second. This is not a PS3 limitation.

There are plenty of features GT4 has that GT5 does not, and that is on PS2. I'm quite sure changing rims and selecting a paint color is not something PS3 struggles with.

 

[Rocker]

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are ******re and the intelligent are full of doubt. --
Bertrand Russell

Great sig.

 

[Devedander]

Yeah, you're right. Still, GT5 doesn't suffer too greatly because of it. It's still a big improvement over GT4 in most areas, and I'm enjoying it more than Forza 3 despite its faults

How much it suffers and in what ways is in large subjective so you can't really say as fact.

As for improvements over GT4, it seems for every improvement there is a new step backwards... and remember a lot of those improvements are pretty much mandatory when moving to new hardware. Higher resolution between PS2 and PS3 isn't so much an improvement as NOT having higher resolution would be a failure.

The same way you could say a 2011 model car with AC is an improvement over a 1980 model that didn't have AC... however as far as relative success, I don't think having AC in 2011 merits any kind of recognition... it's about on par with having seatbelts in 1980.

 

[Tenacious D]

Wow... as usual, every GT5 thread in spite of topic turns into a critical debate or grouchfest. But I'll bite.

It's really hard to say just what exactly Kaz's vision was with GT5. It's obvious that as usual, he wanted to encourage car exploration. He does this in every GT game by making it a challenge to progress at certain points by making it expensive, or forcing you to do a license test you may not be quite able to come to grips with. The license thing forces you to be a better, more clever and skillful driver. The money thing, rather than experiment, most of us do a money race and grind.

GT5 puts weird hoops in place which force us to do various things we may not want to do. Doing these things is fine, I usually do everything I can in a GT game. I spent 13 months in GT4 and did everything but the enduros, and still haven't do a one. But it's the way that Kaz forces you to deal with GT5, the kooky/crappy/whatever level system which is just... unfathomable, strange, or flat out bizarre.

In addition, there's the lack of events in single player offline. It wouldn't have been hard to fill the game with events. Coding game structure is the easy part of racing games. You have the race system built already as far as getting bots to run around a track more or less like real racers. The race code is just a matter of stringing these events together into a racing series, adding some stat tracking and result tabulations to determine prizes if you meet the conditions. But... wow, in GT5 the events sure are much less this time.

Part of that is encouraging you to do the B-Spec thing. There are also some very cool prizes in that section. I know it bores some people stupid, but I think it's kind of cool. I do B-Spec when I'm eating or something, or when I'm in cool down from a day of heavy racing.

In my opinion, the other is Online Mode. This isn't complete yet, and from Kaz's tweets on the matter, it's clear they're still building it. I think part of that is SONY not being quite up to speed on having their net backbone in place fully. M$ is made of money, and started building an online gaming structure way back in the mid-90s. Remember the MS Gaming Network? It was flaming awful, but it was an investment which paid off with Live, for those crazy enough to think it's cool anyhow, but I digress.

Anyway, SONY and Polyphony both are working to get this thing up to speed still, and it makes sense to hold off on an online system in GT5 until this thing has the kinks worked out. Heck, it was so overloaded when GT5 released that we were advised to pull our network cables, remember that? Kaz wants to make GT5 Online much like GT4. Can you imagine the millions of broadband users who spend most of their time online if this thing was actually finished? It's going to take a while for GT5 Online to mature, but it's coming.

Standard car complainers? I think you guys are neeners. Try roof view with Standards for a while. I think you'll end up loving it as much as cockpit view, or close to it. It sure beats bumper or chase in most cases. I will resort to chase to do something when I'm not quite doing a turn right, or when I really need to see the whole field of cars around me, as in the IA-10 license test... gah. The interiors for those who insist that only that will do, it's possible they can get black frame interiors working. Something wasn't right with that. As for wheels, the selection of rims in GT5 are pretty lame for the most part anyhow. I bought like... one so far. They need to model a TON more before I worry about wheels on Standards.

The used car lot, that really needs looked at. It's too small, essential cars show up too infrequently, and if you're in a racing series, you can't hop out to check the tiny used list to see if a needed ride is there. If you can afford it anyhow. And no telling how often a car - or truck - will cycle.

The XP and money system is way too stingy for the costs of some of these cars, it needs a serious adjustment. So do prize cars. Some of them make no sense whatsoever.

Missing brake upgrades are baffling. So is the adjustable gear fiasco. I'm clueless as to what's up with that, but Kaz says we'll get something soon on that.

These aren't small niggles, most of them except for the Standard car whinging, but by all accounts Kaz is taking our wishlists into account. I'm content to know that GT5 is kind of like Prologue, a modular game that new tracks could be added seamlessly in Single Player. Even the physics system could be patched. This is forward thinking I see in darn few games.

As it is now, GT5 is a problem child I still love. Or the analogy I prefer, a crazy wife who eats the furniture. But she's still so awesome, and therapy is coming, so there's no way another game will interest me. Others may differ on this, and that's fine with me.

 

[Amused2Death66]

Wow... as usual, every GT5 thread in spite of topic turns into a critical debate or grouchfest. But I'll bite.

In addition, there's the lack of events in single player offline. It wouldn't have been hard to fill the game with events. Coding game structure is the easy part of racing games. You have the race system built already as far as getting bots to run around a track more or less like real racers. The race code is just a matter of stringing these events together into a racing series, adding some stat tracking and result tabulations to determine prizes if you meet the conditions. But... wow, in GT5 the events sure are much less this time.

I've only quoted part of your post Tenacious, despite your post being a very good and reasoned one, because its your above point that winds me up more than anything else.

PS3 certainly could handle a damn sight more events than its got and more races within those events. I really fail to understand why on earth the events are so paltry.

You are a huge fan of GT that has been evident time and time again with your posts in this forum, yet rather than be a mindless fanboy, you see the huge faults that lie in this game, and I believe that you share my frustration that some are pretty much inexcusable and unnecessary.

We don't offer constructive criticism to whine, but simply because such criticism is deserved and leaves us mystified.

 

[airjoker88]

Devander please stop being that guy.


You go to movies right? you pay right? Its over and was a great movie and in turn u appreciate the directors take, the actors work, the script, etc. The work put in.

Either ur part of the masses, or u understand the process of how something is created, which i can only assume u lack as u only speak from a marketing/business perspective.


PS These people have such logical reason to feel connected to the creators of this game, as this website is a rare example of a fanbase so deeply involved with the creation of a game in relation to anything else. Add in cars and a very passionate creator, then people can relate.


Does it not get tiresome to be that guy?

 

[Tenacious D]

Amused2Death66,

It's kind of a shame that your post is a breath of fresh air around here. Seriously, the number of posts with people ranting some pretty horrible things they'd like to do to Kazunori is appalling.

I'm obviously with you on the A-Spec thing. I know it's made short to push you into exploring B-Spec and Online Mode. But as stated, B-Spec is boring to many, and Online Mode is bare bones right now, better than Prologue, but skimpy compared to the usual racer.

In this situation, there really should have been a Plan B with A-Spec. Regardless of how awesome Online will end up being, some of us just aren't big fans of online racing, and some simply can't. A-Spec should have been like GT4. With all these cars, there would be an endless number of races available simply from all the possible Manufacturer Cup races that could be done.

I still hold out hope for A-Spec. Prologue has proven that PD can build a modular game which can be expanded seamlessly, unlike most other racers. Maybe I should start a thread, "Expand A-Spec, please!" Or someone. I think I want to get back to some fiction writing, as much as I love racing in this weird game we got.

I guess, keep criticizing! Just maybe not in this thread.

And, uhm... dittos to airjoker88. 👍 Deve is an odd guy, but you get used to him. Somehow.

 

[Devedander]

Devander please stop being that guy.


You go to movies right? you pay right? Its over and was a great movie and in turn u appreciate the directors take, the actors work, the script, etc. The work put in.

Either ur part of the masses, or u understand the process of how something is created, which i can only assume u lack as u only speak from a marketing/business perspective.


PS These people have such logical reason to feel connected to the creators of this game, as this website is a rare example of a fanbase so deeply involved with the creation of a game in relation to anything else. Add in cars and a very passionate creator, then people can relate.


Does it not get tiresome to be that guy?

I do go to movies. I also pay. I have never once written a thank you letter to a director or writer because their movie was good let alone if the movie was actually buggy and fully of flaws not even found in the prequals (looking right at you Transfomers 2!)

The only thing that gets tiresome is the unending wave of creepily warshipful (and apparently often blind) masses who wash through

 

[airjoker88]

I do go to movies. I also pay. I have never once written a thank you letter to a director or writer because their movie was good let alone if the movie was actually buggy and fully of flaws not even found in the prequals (looking right at you Transfomers 2!)

The only thing that gets tiresome is the unending wave of creepily warshipful (and apparently often blind) masses who wash through

Musicians get sent letters more than id like to know.


For me its appreciation for passionate creation. As it is of most genuine in times like these.( in reference to ur business exploits which in fact do hold true in such a commercial industry we've succombed to ie. making games ONLY to reap money but not create a legacy.)


PS people show their appreciation in many ways, just because it is not like u it must not mean their wrong.

oh about tranformers or michael bay in general, he loves fast quick cuts that can be toow jarring at times! ahh!, but being a cg artists i can appreciate the 3D models of zee transformers.

 

[Lucas]

Devander please stop being that guy.


You go to movies right? you pay right? Its over and was a great movie and in turn u appreciate the directors take, the actors work, the script, etc. The work put in.

Since on the subject I share the same view as Devedander, I may as well answer this.

Movies that I really enjoyed and would watch on TV if I ever catched them:

- Pulp Fiction.
- Reservoir Dogs.
- Forrest Gump.
- The Truman Show.
- Inception.
- Fight Club.
- Gran Torino.
- Cruel Intentions.

Now, do I love those movies? Yes. Have I ever appreciated the people who did these movies? Definitely not.

If I should be thankful for something, I would really feel it. I'm not feeling it right now.

So, why should I be thankful if I don't feel the need? Only one answer: I shouldn't. And that's perfectly alright.

 

[airjoker88]

Since on the subject I share the same view as Devedander, I may as well answer this.

Movies that I really enjoyed and would watch on TV if I ever catched them:

- Pulp Fiction.
- Reservoir Dogs.
- Forrest Gump.
- The Truman Show.
- Inception.
- Fight Club.
- Gran Torino.
- Cruel Intentions.

Now, do I love those movies? Yes. Have I ever appreciated the people who did these movies? Definitely not.

If I should be thankful for something, I would really feel it. I'm not feeling it right now.

So, why should I be thankful if I don't feel the need? Only one answer: I shouldn't. And that's perfectly alright.

Shows you don't know what it takes, and why you'll only be a pawn.




Please forgive my blountness.

 

[Devedander]

Musicians get sent letters more than id like to know.


For me its appreciation for passionate creation. As it is of most genuine in times like these.( in reference to ur business exploits which in fact do hold true in such a commercial industry we've succombed to ie. making games ONLY to reap money but not create a legacy.)


PS people show their appreciation in many ways, just because it is not like u it must not mean their wrong.

oh about tranformers or michael bay in general, he loves fast quick cuts that can be toow jarring at times! ahh!, but being a cg artists i can appreciate the 3D models of zee transformers.

Musicians have admirers and roadies... musicians also get underwear thrown at them on stage sometimes... while I do see the connections I also think they are a significantly different situation as they are performers first and not so much product producers (although they are in away).


As for Transformers 2... that movie sucked on so many levels... Transformers wasn't very good and 2 was uglier than Megan Foxe's thumb.

Shows you don't know what it takes, and why you'll only be a pawn.



Please forgive my blountness.

Irrefutable logic.

 

[Tenacious D]

Now, do I love those movies? Yes. Have I ever appreciated the people who did these movies? Definitely not.

Well... considering that most of those movies are rubbish, I'd agree with the sentiment. Arbitrarily. But to appreciate a work that is done well, admirably well, but then ignore the ones involved... Let me say that I now understand you and Deve much better. You guys are weird.

As a bedroom musician and engineer myself, and someone who is in demand from friends for the album quality production work I do, I sure understand the industry, and the thankless cold shoulders that get shown to the people and some of the bands involved. David Bowie, Peter Gabriel, Trent Reznor, Peter Hammill, Jordan Rudess... you can name your own artists. They earn their praise and adulation from fans. But how many know the names of the fellow musicians, engineers and producers that make the finished product shine? Without them, you'd likely have something that sounded like a garage band. Assuming the artist wasn't also the engineer and producer.

I read those credits in movies and in video games I love because without those people, I wouldn't be able to escape this crappy world and have some darn good times doing it! And yes, at some point, I want to write and let them know that their work wasn't done thanklessly.

You two sure have a poopy attitude.

 

[Lucas]

Well... considering that most of those movies are rubbish, I'd agree with the sentiment. Arbitrarily.

To you they are rubbish. To me they are awesome. But to you GT5 is a gift from the Gods, while to me it's basically worse than Forza (and I expected the opposite), so it's okay.

But to appreciate a work that is done well, admirably well, but then ignore the ones involved... Let me say that I now understand you and Deve much better. You guys are weird.

Hey, I think the same about you guys. I've never seen anything weirder than wanting to paint a portrait of a game developer. Ask someone who's reasonable (someone in the Rumble Strip that barely comes here) what's weirder: not thanking someone for making a game, OR making a portrait of said someone.

You two sure have a poopy attitude.

Now this is what I call borderline trolling.

 

[gaming25]

Wow... as usual, every GT5 thread in spite of topic turns into a critical debate or grouchfest. But I'll bite.

It's really hard to say just what exactly Kaz's vision was with GT5. It's obvious that as usual, he wanted to encourage car exploration. He does this in every GT game by making it a challenge to progress at certain points by making it expensive, or forcing you to do a license test you may not be quite able to come to grips with. The license thing forces you to be a better, more clever and skillful driver. The money thing, rather than experiment, most of us do a money race and grind.

GT5 puts weird hoops in place which force us to do various things we may not want to do. Doing these things is fine, I usually do everything I can in a GT game. I spent 13 months in GT4 and did everything but the enduros, and still haven't do a one. But it's the way that Kaz forces you to deal with GT5, the kooky/crappy/whatever level system which is just... unfathomable, strange, or flat out bizarre.

In addition, there's the lack of events in single player offline. It wouldn't have been hard to fill the game with events. Coding game structure is the easy part of racing games. You have the race system built already as far as getting bots to run around a track more or less like real racers. The race code is just a matter of stringing these events together into a racing series, adding some stat tracking and result tabulations to determine prizes if you meet the conditions. But... wow, in GT5 the events sure are much less this time.

Part of that is encouraging you to do the B-Spec thing. There are also some very cool prizes in that section. I know it bores some people stupid, but I think it's kind of cool. I do B-Spec when I'm eating or something, or when I'm in cool down from a day of heavy racing.

In my opinion, the other is Online Mode. This isn't complete yet, and from Kaz's tweets on the matter, it's clear they're still building it. I think part of that is SONY not being quite up to speed on having their net backbone in place fully. M$ is made of money, and started building an online gaming structure way back in the mid-90s. Remember the MS Gaming Network? It was flaming awful, but it was an investment which paid off with Live, for those crazy enough to think it's cool anyhow, but I digress.

Anyway, SONY and Polyphony both are working to get this thing up to speed still, and it makes sense to hold off on an online system in GT5 until this thing has the kinks worked out. Heck, it was so overloaded when GT5 released that we were advised to pull our network cables, remember that? Kaz wants to make GT5 Online much like GT4. Can you imagine the millions of broadband users who spend most of their time online if this thing was actually finished? It's going to take a while for GT5 Online to mature, but it's coming.

Standard car complainers? I think you guys are neeners. Try roof view with Standards for a while. I think you'll end up loving it as much as cockpit view, or close to it. It sure beats bumper or chase in most cases. I will resort to chase to do something when I'm not quite doing a turn right, or when I really need to see the whole field of cars around me, as in the IA-10 license test... gah. The interiors for those who insist that only that will do, it's possible they can get black frame interiors working. Something wasn't right with that. As for wheels, the selection of rims in GT5 are pretty lame for the most part anyhow. I bought like... one so far. They need to model a TON more before I worry about wheels on Standards.

The used car lot, that really needs looked at. It's too small, essential cars show up too infrequently, and if you're in a racing series, you can't hop out to check the tiny used list to see if a needed ride is there. If you can afford it anyhow. And no telling how often a car - or truck - will cycle.

The XP and money system is way too stingy for the costs of some of these cars, it needs a serious adjustment. So do prize cars. Some of them make no sense whatsoever.

Missing brake upgrades are baffling. So is the adjustable gear fiasco. I'm clueless as to what's up with that, but Kaz says we'll get something soon on that.

These aren't small niggles, most of them except for the Standard car whinging, but by all accounts Kaz is taking our wishlists into account. I'm content to know that GT5 is kind of like Prologue, a modular game that new tracks could be added seamlessly in Single Player. Even the physics system could be patched. This is forward thinking I see in darn few games.

As it is now, GT5 is a problem child I still love. Or the analogy I prefer, a crazy wife who eats the furniture. But she's still so awesome, and therapy is coming, so there's no way another game will interest me. Others may differ on this, and that's fine with me.

And all this time they made you out to be this ravid GT fanboy. lol. And what you said at the end is the main point, some reviews like to overreact, and complain about standard cars, I really couldnt believe it. They left themselves open for a huge logic check because if the standards wouldnt be in the game, then they wouldnt be complaining.

 

[ezzyos]

Haha, this game is ANYTHING but amazing compared to the previous GTs.

and to those who are saying "if you don't like it, don't play it"... really?

I quote George W. Bush ; "either you're with us, or you're against us".

That should sum it ip.

 

[gaming25]

Haha, this game is ANYTHING but amazing compared to the previous GTs.

Everything that was in the past GTs are in this game, and they expanded on it.

 

[ezzyos]

Everything that was in the past GTs are in this game, and they expanded on it.

Just my personal opinion. I feel the other GTs were special, this one just doesn't, and it's difficult for me to admit that.

 

[TheBrianWillis]

Fun game.
But I thank them for that Nov 2nd delay. Made me cancel the CE. This game is definitley not worth $109

 

[KidSnipe]

Everything that was in the past GTs are in this game, and they expanded on it.

Oh really??? So how's GT5's version of Infineon? Is it any fun? I heard Motegi was a blast, too.

 

[ezzyos]

Fun game.
But I thank them for that Nov 2nd delay. Made me cancel the CE. This game is definitley not worth $109

co-sign! =) did the same myself... changed my order to standard edition. Glad I did.

 

[machschnel]

Haha, this game is ANYTHING but amazing compared to the previous GTs.

and to those who are saying "if you don't like it, don't play it"... really?

I quote George W. Bush ; "either you're with us, or you're against us".

That should sum it ip.

Personally, I would refrain from using anything uttered by that "man" in public