The 2020 George Floyd/BLM/Police Brutality Protests Discussion Thread

Heh, indeed. Ron Estes. Ron's got a FiveThirtyEight Trump score (how frequently a member of Congress' vote reflects the desires of Trump) of 96.5%. Of course he'd run to the aid of Ivanka.

By comparison, dyed-in-the-wool Trumpkin, genuine Florida Man and general douchecanoe Matt Gaetz has a Trump score of just 84.6%; more than ten points lower. Mind you that's heavily impacted by Gaetz's rate of non-voting.



"There is no excuse for police brutality, but here's an excuse for police brutality. Sincerely, Ian Miles Cheong. Yes...that Ian Miles Cheong."

Is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea a democracy?
National Socialist German Workers' Party is about "Socialist" as Democratic People's Republic of Korea is "Democratic" and "Republic".
 
That's convenient...

... for followers of Trump who wish to politically distance their ethnonationalism from that which created the WW2 labour camps.
I'm from Italy. I can't care less for Trump. In fact I'm still stupefied how could he became the president in the first place.
 
I bring up Mein Kampf because it was the manifesto that laid out Hitler's vision for what would become the Nazi party and I bring up Fascism because its an ideology that allowed Hitler to bring his manifesto, are you seriously attempting to suggest that Hitler and the Nazi's were not Fascists (which is by definition is a far-right ideology).

Oh, and socialism is not just 'about the economy'.
Oh, come one. When did I suggested that Hitler and Nazi's were not Fascist? This has nothing to do with what am I saying.
My thoughts are more in line with this article.
https://www.thestranger.com/slog/20...y-still-dont-know-what-they-are-talking-about
 
I'm from Italy. I can't care less for Trump. In fact I'm still stupefied how could he became the president in the first place.
Lucky you, but I'm saying that's the same tactic that the Trumpies use when people compare their camps with the Nazi ones. Associating Nazi genocide with democratic socialism because left and right are suddenly meaningless. Sanders =/= Hitler.

crowdchart.png
 
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Right, and my point is they're using unnecessary tactics against a peaceful crowd.
Have you completely reviewed all the video and articles I have posted? Nowhere did I see where was it identified exactly where, when, how and who transitioned from peaceful protest to riot activity. The on-scene reporters do say most of the protesters were peaceful, but did allow a few instigators were present at the front of the protester lines. Prepared IEDs were used by the protesters. As were frozen water bottles and rocks. That also indicates intent to riot.

Update/Edit:
Latest local reporting is that the violence was initiated by protesters throwing rocks, glass and incendiaries into the police ranks. Even so, Chief Carmen Best is initiating a more formal investigation.
 
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Lucky you, but I'm saying that's the same tactic that the Trumpies use when people compare their camps with the Nazi ones. Associating Nazi genocide with democratic socialism because left and right are suddenly meaningless.
Clearly I am not talking about that. How many times do I have to point out that there were different socialialist ideology in the past? And I'm not trying to associate it to democratic socialism ether.
 
Clearly I am not talking about that. How many times do I have to point out that there were different socialialist ideology in the past? And I'm not trying to associate it to democratic socialism ether.
Then what is the point of people equating it with socialism if not to distance it from the ethnocentralism of Trump and associate it with his left opponents? It's socialism except for the massive racism which makes it unlike American or European socialism, so why draw the parallel in the first place? To what end? I maintain that it's a smear tactic, even if you're not using it in that fashion for whatever reason. It plays into the Trumpists' hands.
 
Most people think socialism began with Karl Marx. But I think it began in the Paleolithic.
 
Then what is the point of people equating it with socialism if not to distance it from the ethnocentralism of Trump and associate it with his left opponents? It's socialism except for the massive racism which makes it unlike American or European socialism, so why draw the parallel in the first place? To what end? I maintain that it's a smear tactic, even if you're not using it in that fashion for whatever reason. It plays into the Trumpists' hands.
You are overthinking it. I was merely responding to one post saying Ahh Ian Miles Cheong, the man who thinks Nazis are actually socialists.
 
You are overthinking it. I was merely responding to one post saying Ahh Ian Miles Cheong, the man who thinks Nazis are actually socialists.
And I'm explaining why I think he said that.
 
Oh, come one. When did I suggested that Hitler and Nazi's were not Fascist? This has nothing to do with what am I saying.
My thoughts are more in line with this article.
https://www.thestranger.com/slog/20...y-still-dont-know-what-they-are-talking-about
You attempted to remove fascism from the conversation, oh and the article, another non-historian with a poor grasp of socialism.

I’ve already cited a historian who has pointed out exactly the faults with the approach.

However maybe you need to read it from the man himself to understand that he stole the term and had no intention of using it in the manner it was developed by Marx and his predecessors.

https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2007/sep/17/greatinterviews1

You are overthinking it. I was merely responding to one post saying Ahh Ian Miles Cheong, the man who thinks Nazis are actually socialists.
He does, in exactly the way @UKMikey explained, as an attempt to deflect from the far rights true association with it and as an attempt to try and label those on the left as fascists.

Congratulations that’s what you just supported.
 
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I've read the news about the felling of Colston's statue in Bristol, and for once, I'm angry that I'm British. I'm surprised at how angry it's made me.

The sad thing is, I sort of understand why they did it. Colston was involved in the slave trade, which is appalling. Of course, with BLM being a big issue at the moment it was coming, I guess. The people that tore down that statue say that we should learn from past mistakes, yet are trying to brush away any signs of the past that they don't agree with. What statue is next? Winston Churchill? The man who defeated fascism in Europe? We have to learn from past mistakes, but that doesn't mean we should tear down any statues of people who did these things in the past. They are there for a reason - they must be remembered, even if those memories aren't good ones. Not one of the people who tore down the statue are actually affected by the former slave trade, nor do they know how they actually felt, or what they wanted.

Jordan Peterson has said that we are moving towards a civil war of sorts and that these riots for equality may be doing the opposite. In a couple of years - 20, 10, maybe even 5, he may be proved right, and with every destructive riot around the world, I am becoming more and more sure that he is right. The conspiracy that 2020 is the end of the world may not be that wrong after all, but I'm not going to go into religious predictions because none of us, let alone me, know what we are talking about. I have a horrible feeling that what we are feeling is a revolution: a new era. We are seeing people become more and more fed up with the 'woke brigade'. In the UK, why do you think that in the 2019 general election, the Conservative Party - a party that apparently has destroyed the life chances of those in the north and has brought along mass cuts through austerity created only through spite - won the largest majority since the days of Margaret Thatcher, who was elected for similar reasons? And why was it that the left-leaning Labour, Liberal Democrat and Green parties suffered their worst defeats in ages?

I think that the destruction of the Colston statue was done by a small minority of people with very loud mouths. Some call them extremists. Eventually, they might get too big for their boots and there will be, in the words of J.B. Priestley there may be "fire, blood and anguish". On the 6th of June, we celebrated the efforts done by brave men to protect the livelihoods of millions of people across the world, sacrificing their lives while invading the beaches of Normandy. And how do we pay them back? Destroy the statue of a man who built dozens of schools and hospitals, saving the lives of thousands and creating opportunities for even more. This man may have been a leading figure in the slave trade - which people like to forget the British was the leading force in getting rid of - but, if you or your family were injured, would that be the biggest issue to you? It certainly shouldn't.

I find it amusing (that is sarcasm) that when one black man is brutally killed, the entire world goes into a fit of rage, yet when it happens the other way around, nobody bats an eyelid, at least in the long term. The same people who are marching around cities, vandalising statues of historical figures and abusing those less radical than them are the same people who say we need to love everybody, not judge them by their covers and that we should all be equal. However, this only applies when it suits them. Countless amounts of young, white British girls sexually assaulted by Islamic men? Oh, what a tragedy, they say. But as soon as one black man is killed by an unhinged, racist police officer that doesn't represent all police officers in the slightest (even when only looking at the US' police force), we have mass civil unrest. Disgusting people, I say.

Earlier on I mentioned a quote from my favourite play, An Inspector Calls. While my English teacher say that it is, in effect, left-wing propaganda, I disagree (and this is coming from somebody who is apparently right-wing). It is not political. It's not singing "Oh, Jeremy Corbyn!". It isn't shouting about "a decade of Tory austerity!" It's about being humane. It is saying that we need to respect each other, and that equality is equality. There is no middle ground. Nobody is worse than you because they have the 'wrong' opinion. You shouldn't dismiss people because their identity group means that they apparently can't have empathy for other groups (hello, white privilege).

Remember, if you've ever been angry at someone of a different ethnic group because they, because they are part of that group, are racist, you are worse than them.
There are no ifs and no buts.

Goodnight.
 
Mittens out here making Utah proud.



His dad did the same thing as governor of Michigan back in the 1960s too. George Romney walked side by side with civil rights protesters and supported the Civil Rights movement despite the LDS Church being against it.
 
@Touring Mars expressed exasperation over the killing of an armed individual who represented a legitimate threat to law enforcement opersonnel being mentioned in the same breath as victims of police brutality. I agree that this is wholly inappropriate.

But it works both ways. Victims of police brutality ought not be mentioned in the same breath as those who were killed because they were armed and represented a legitimate threat to law enforcement personnel. I find it terribly disheartening that people are doing precisely this and that they seem to be doing so in an effort to get away from the actual issue.

It's even less appropriate that the criminal acts of criminals, heinous as they are, are mentioned in the same breath as acts of police brutality. That one would then allege a double standard--that people are disproportionately outraged over gross misconduct by those who are tasked with the protection of the public compared to the heinous criminal acts of criminals--is next level.
 
If it's so vitally important that Edward Colston's memory be commemorated with a public memorial, then I look forward to seeing the crowdfunding campaign get underway to replace the statue. I'm sure that would be popular amongst Bristolians...

Were it up to me (and sufficient funding were somehow made available) I'd like to see the statue replaced by a plaque that recorded what happened to the statue. Because that's part of history too.
 
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Contains video of SPD crowd control tactics. They use flash bangs and bicycle maneuvers. Tear gas has been banned for 30 days pending review.

Sources have heard that Mayor Durkan banned tear gas use for 30 days not out of the goodness of her or SPD's heart, but because SPD ran out of tear gas and the lead time to replenish is 30 days.

Have you completely reviewed all the video and articles I have posted? Nowhere did I see where was it identified exactly where, when, how and who transitioned from peaceful protest to riot activity. The on-scene reporters do say most of the protesters were peaceful, but did allow a few instigators were present at the front of the protester lines. Prepared IEDs were used by the protesters. As were frozen water bottles and rocks. That also indicates intent to riot.

And you also need to be careful about taking the coverage at face value given there were so many other protests going on at the same time throughout the region. Why weren't those covered? The local media has a fixation on the protests on Capitol Hill, almost as if sensing that particular protest would most likely to have conflicts and thus generate views, while ignoring the vast majority of the protesting that's going on not just there, but in the rest of the region.

I went to the Rainier Beach protest today that drew thousands of people. There were minimal cops to escalate the situation, and there was no visible media presence to report on it, and guess what, it was completely peaceful. Looking on Komo, King, Kiro, you'll barely find even a mention of that protest because they are so fixated at some contrived violence story elsewhere to sell the news.

Live from Seattle on the ground near the 3rd Precinct. Raw footage, raw truth.



In that channel, at least when this was posted, one of the feeds is from Omarisal FB. He also livestreams on Facebook, and his streams are good. He does good work bringing live footage from the frontline.
 
I've read the news about the felling of Colston's statue in Bristol, and for once, I'm angry that I'm British. I'm surprised at how angry it's made me.

The sad thing is, I sort of understand why they did it. Colston was involved in the slave trade, which is appalling. Of course, with BLM being a big issue at the moment it was coming, I guess. The people that tore down that statue say that we should learn from past mistakes, yet are trying to brush away any signs of the past that they don't agree with. What statue is next? Winston Churchill? The man who defeated fascism in Europe? We have to learn from past mistakes, but that doesn't mean we should tear down any statues of people who did these things in the past. They are there for a reason - they must be remembered, even if those memories aren't good ones. Not one of the people who tore down the statue are actually affected by the former slave trade, nor do they know how they actually felt, or what they wanted.

Jordan Peterson has said that we are moving towards a civil war of sorts and that these riots for equality may be doing the opposite. In a couple of years - 20, 10, maybe even 5, he may be proved right, and with every destructive riot around the world, I am becoming more and more sure that he is right. The conspiracy that 2020 is the end of the world may not be that wrong after all, but I'm not going to go into religious predictions because none of us, let alone me, know what we are talking about. I have a horrible feeling that what we are feeling is a revolution: a new era. We are seeing people become more and more fed up with the 'woke brigade'. In the UK, why do you think that in the 2019 general election, the Conservative Party - a party that apparently has destroyed the life chances of those in the north and has brought along mass cuts through austerity created only through spite - won the largest majority since the days of Margaret Thatcher, who was elected for similar reasons? And why was it that the left-leaning Labour, Liberal Democrat and Green parties suffered their worst defeats in ages?

I think that the destruction of the Colston statue was done by a small minority of people with very loud mouths. Some call them extremists. Eventually, they might get too big for their boots and there will be, in the words of J.B. Priestley there may be "fire, blood and anguish". On the 6th of June, we celebrated the efforts done by brave men to protect the livelihoods of millions of people across the world, sacrificing their lives while invading the beaches of Normandy. And how do we pay them back? Destroy the statue of a man who built dozens of schools and hospitals, saving the lives of thousands and creating opportunities for even more. This man may have been a leading figure in the slave trade - which people like to forget the British was the leading force in getting rid of - but, if you or your family were injured, would that be the biggest issue to you? It certainly shouldn't.

I find it amusing (that is sarcasm) that when one black man is brutally killed, the entire world goes into a fit of rage, yet when it happens the other way around, nobody bats an eyelid, at least in the long term. The same people who are marching around cities, vandalising statues of historical figures and abusing those less radical than them are the same people who say we need to love everybody, not judge them by their covers and that we should all be equal. However, this only applies when it suits them. Countless amounts of young, white British girls sexually assaulted by Islamic men? Oh, what a tragedy, they say. But as soon as one black man is killed by an unhinged, racist police officer that doesn't represent all police officers in the slightest (even when only looking at the US' police force), we have mass civil unrest. Disgusting people, I say.

Earlier on I mentioned a quote from my favourite play, An Inspector Calls. While my English teacher say that it is, in effect, left-wing propaganda, I disagree (and this is coming from somebody who is apparently right-wing). It is not political. It's not singing "Oh, Jeremy Corbyn!". It isn't shouting about "a decade of Tory austerity!" It's about being humane. It is saying that we need to respect each other, and that equality is equality. There is no middle ground. Nobody is worse than you because they have the 'wrong' opinion. You shouldn't dismiss people because their identity group means that they apparently can't have empathy for other groups (hello, white privilege).

Remember, if you've ever been angry at someone of a different ethnic group because they, because they are part of that group, are racist, you are worse than them.
There are no ifs and no buts.

Goodnight.
Utterly disagree about the statue (and I live close to Bristol and my daughter and son-in-law live in Bristol).

Coulston may have saved the lives of thousands of people, but he also ended the lives (both actually and figuratively) of over 84,000 people, and his statue categorically did not stand as a memorial to those people and their descendants.

The people of Bristol have repeatedly tried to get the statue removed and replaced with one that was a memorial to his victims, it has been vetoed at every step by local tory counsellors, the same counsellors who also veto's the wording of a plaque that was to be installed at the statue because in covered too much of his role as a slave trader and they specifically objected to it mentioning the fact that he was a tory MP!

The statue very much memorialised his good and utterly ignored the role he played in the slave trade, I'm also sick to the back teeth of people on-line describing him as a slave-owner, he was a slave trader, the enabler of slave-owners and as such in an even worse category of humanity as a result.

As for it not affecting the people of Bristol, I can assure you that's not the case, every resident of Bristol has to live with the knowledge that the city was responsible for the transportation of millions of slaves, that it was built on the backs of those slaves and the goods they were forced to produce. You also seem unaware that the majority of the black community in Bristol is of Afro-Caribean heritage, and as such are the descendants of those transported on the trans-Atlantic slave routes.

The statue was enough of a ret-con of the actual history of the man and the city itself, as someone with links to the city I would be grateful if you didn't amplify that attempt to justify the good actions of a man who did untold harm and has a verifiable death count linked to him in the thousands.

Oh and yes statues of Churchill should be reconsidered, particularly given his past, that is unless you are going to campaign for statues of Stalin to be re-commissioned (who had more to do with the downfall of the Nazi's in Europe that anyone, yet was a mass-murderer and has been rightly remembered as such). Your statement that Churchill was "the man who defeated fascism in Europe" is so far from accurate that its an utter re-write of history. It also ignores the contributions by European forces (from Norway, Poland, France, Holland, Belgium, Czechoslavakia and Greece) as well as seeming to forget the Americans, Canadians, Australians, Commonweath (15 million of whom fought in the war), New Zealand and Norwegian forces. That's just at D-Day alone and ignores the country that suffered the most (with a third of all deaths in the war) which was Russia. Churchill was not the man who defeated fascism in Europe, he was part of a massive, worldwide effort that did, and to hold him up as being the architect of it is a re-write of the reality of the war.

Oh and in case anyone forgets: Britain, we're going to war with Germany to ensure Poland remains free / Britain at the end of the war, sorry Poland, you're Russia's now.

History as its taught in the UK is so clearly biased in this regard that we do as a country need to better understand both sides, just go and speak to anyone from Ireland and ask them the reality behind the history of this country in Ireland. You will get a very different and more accurate view of what happened. This is why we have the utterly absurd miasma of British Exceptionalism, which in part is why Brexit and the last general election went the way it did. Its long past the time that the UK grew up and understood its real part in the history of the world, both the good and the bad it has done, as the later is very sorely missing right now.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29701767

1c8.jpg
 
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