The 2020 George Floyd/BLM/Police Brutality Protests Discussion Thread

[ryzno]

All I did was respond to your post. I honestly don't know what I would do but that's not to say you can speak for me and tell me what I'm going to do. I thought we respected each at least that much.

We do, that's why I said '90% never experienced' and that's why I said 'probably'. I can think of 2 people here off the top of my head who will be the first to tell you they'll shot to defend themselves.

 

[Joey D]

Of course they should be fit and have proper training, but I wouldn't go into fight anyway because likelihood of getting injured or infected is high and scenarios like small female cop vs big male suspect on drugs wouldn't go well for cop.

If a cop, whether male or female, is unable to perform the task of subduing a large suspect, then they probably shouldn't be a cop.

One thing I learned in life. You can train, study and practice a million times. But when the crap hits the fan you can usually throw those books out the window.
I'm sure 90% of the people here have never had to deal with someone who's irrational and high or have a gun in their face. Funny enough the same people would probably grab a gun and shoot the person in "self defense" but when an officer does it they hit the keyboards acting like they know everything.
And I have been in those situations. They're not fun.

Working in a hospital, having people act irrationally is pretty common. It's typically the most common in pediatric and OB units with an ex-partner trying to kidnap a child or cause physical harm to a woman or her current partner. It's so common that if you work in a hospital you're typically trained with how to deal with it when it comes up. You're also typically training on how to deal with active shooters since that's a very real possibility, especially when the hospital you work at treats prisoners and those in police custody. I've been at work when these situations have occurred. It's definitely scary, but I think for many people their training does kick in since they took it seriously and they're constantly being retrained on how to deal with it.

With regards to cops though, they should be better trained than the average person. They should know how to handle a situation without defaulting to their weapon since that's a huge part of their job. They should know how to use all the tools in their arsenal and they should be physically fit enough to be able to subdue a suspect without shooting them.

I'm not saying cops shouldn't use their weapon. There are instances where it's definitely justified, but it shouldn't be the default.

 

[Groundfish]

 

[McLaren]

Funny enough the same people would probably grab a gun and shoot the person in "self defense" but when an officer does it they hit the keyboards acting like they know everything.

Shooting someone in the back is a quick way to nullify any self-defense claim for any person....

 

[ryzno]

Shooting someone in the back is a quick way to nullify any self-defense claim for any person....

And letting someone run into their car to possibly run someone over or grab a gun/knife is ok cause they didn't want to get arrested?
Or letting someone run away even though they just tried to shoot you with your taser cause they didn't want to get arrested?
There are a few people who were completely complying and were unjustly shot. There were others who had no intention of giving up but they are treated as if they did nothing wrong.
I'm sorry but I can't agree that the problem is as bad as people make it out to be.

 

[McLaren]

And letting someone run into their car to possibly run someone over or grab a gun/knife is ok cause they didn't want to get arrested?

Imagine that's my argument in court for shooting someone in self-defense.

"Your honor, he was running towards his car. I didn't know what he was gonna do, so I shot him in the back out of possibility, not actuality."

That's been one of the key points repeatedly asked. Why does an officer not have to answer for this, but a civilian would?

Or letting someone run away even though they just tried to shoot you with your taser cause they didn't want to get arrested?

How is it that tasering never seems to work against the criminals yet once it gets used against police, it's absolutely lethal.

There are a few people who were completely complying and were unjustly shot. There were others who had no intention of giving up but they are treated as if they did nothing wrong.
I'm sorry but I can't agree that the problem is as bad as people make it out to be.

You recognize there is an issue, but it's not worth addressing?

 

[Danoff]

Or letting someone run away even though they just tried to shoot you with your taser cause they didn't want to get arrested?

Is shooting the alternative to "letting someone run away"? I thought there were other things that could be done to apprehend people.

 

[Groundfish]

In the USA police=law enforcement.
This video was made by local Seattle news.
We see here the effect of local politicians NOT enforcing laws.
It’s contrasted by the other city in the last 10-15 minutes that combines law enforcement with effective rehabilitation programs.


In some of these cities local elected officials make policing less effective by implementing ideas that are not rational like allowing hard drug trafficking and use and crime to flourish in public spaces as shown empirically in the video.
As shown empirically in the video the majority of members of the law enforcement community there have their hands tied.
Now, think about what happens when you combine the elements of criminals roaming the streets with a protest effort.
There’s not many good outcomes likely, in that scenario imo.

 

[Danoff]

In the USA police=law enforcement.
This video was made by local Seattle news.
We see here the effect of local politicians NOT enforcing laws.
It’s contrasted by the other city in the last 10-15 minutes that combines law enforcement with effective rehabilitation programs.


In some of these cities local elected officials make policing less effective by implementing ideas that are not rational like allowing hard drug trafficking and use and crime to flourish in public spaces as shown empirically in the video.
As shown empirically in the video the majority of members of the law enforcement community there have their hands tied.
Now, think about what happens when you combine the elements of criminals roaming the streets with a protest effort.
There’s not many good outcomes likely, in that scenario imo.

I made a post about this type of thing a few years back.

So what's your conclusion here? Extra funding for police? Teargas protesters? See, you're laying out a decent premise, but I think you're headed for an unsupported conclusion.

 

[Liquid]

I made a post about this type of thing a few years back.

I remember that post about El Paso a year or two back. You know what's also quite incredible about the division between El Paso and Juarez?

El Paso was awarded the title of "Safest Large City" in the United States from 2011 to 2014 and has been in the top three since 1997.

 

[killerjimbag]

Imagine that's my argument in court for shooting someone in self-defense.

"Your honor, he was running towards his car. I didn't know what he was gonna do, so I shot him in the back out of possibility, not actuality."

That's been one of the key points repeatedly asked. Why does an officer not have to answer for this, but a civilian would?

How is it that tasering never seems to work against the criminals yet once it gets used against police, it's absolutely lethal.

You recognize there is an issue, but it's not worth addressing?

You left out the part," he had a warrant for his arrest for "sexual assault and battery" and the other part that he had "3 children in the vehicle"that could have been in grave danger if he drove away or had a weapon.
Report the facts.

 

[Groundfish]

So, as far as a protest is concerned that’s legal.
Rioting or inciting a riot is illegal.
So, when a riot happens the law should be enforced.

 

[UKMikey]

You left out the part," he had a warrant for his arrest for "sexual assault and battery" and the other part that he had "3 children in the vehicle"that could have been in grave danger if he drove away or had a weapon.
Report the facts.

If you're the police, there are ways to stop a car driving away without shooting the driver in the back seven times while he's unarmed. "Think of the children" doesn't mean this was self defence.

 

[McLaren]

You left out the part," he had a warrant for his arrest for "sexual assault and battery" and the other part that he had "3 children in the vehicle"that could have been in grave danger if he drove away or had a weapon.
Report the facts.

Shut it down guys.

When you have a warrant out for your arrest, you're legally allowed to be killed in the name of self-defense.

 

[Joey D]

You left out the part," he had a warrant for his arrest for "sexual assault and battery" and the other part that he had "3 children in the vehicle"that could have been in grave danger if he drove away or had a weapon.
Report the facts.

That doesn't change @McLaren point. Just because a person has warrants, doesn't mean a citizen can shoot them in self-defense under the same circumstances. Also, no matter how many warrants a per has, it doesn't make them automatically guilty of anything. In America, you're innocent until proven guilty (I presume it's the same in Canada). It's one of the cornerstones of our judicial system.

So, as far as a protest is concerned that’s legal.
Rioting or inciting a riot is illegal.
So, when a riot happens the law should be enforced.

Yes, and those rioting are being arrested. One of the issues is many people who are peacefully protesting are also being arrested.

 

[UKMikey]

Shut it down guys.

When you have a warrant out for your arrest, you're legally allowed to be killed in the name of self-defense.

You can't have habeas corpus without a corpse, amirite? Show me the body... look, there it is!

 

[ryzno]

One of the issues is many people who are peacefully protesting are also being arrested.

Usually after being told by the police to go home. We had lots of peaceful protesters here. When they enact a 9pm curfew what should you do? Go home right?

 

[killerjimbag]

If you're the police, there are ways to stop a car driving away without shooting the driver in the back seven times while he's unarmed. "Think of the children" doesn't mean this was self defence.

Do you have children? My kids are now grown adults. There is no way in 🤬 hell I would have acted that way in front of my kids. The fact they had a warrant for his arrest says to me,he shouldn't be around people period. Put your hands up. Don't resist and this won't happen. How 🤬 difficult is that to comprehend?

 

[McLaren]

How 🤬 difficult is that to comprehend?

About as hard as understanding a warrant ≠ guilty?

 

[Tornado]

What part of "Someone having a warrant out on them isn't justification for shooting them" is so difficult for you to understand?


I even provided you an example of someone committing a crime who was soon after shot by police where the fact that they committed the crime the officer was called for had nothing to do with why the officer was exonerated.

 

[Danoff]

Do you have children? My kids are now grown adults. There is no way in 🤬 hell I would have acted that way in front of my kids. The fact they had a warrant for his arrest says to me,he shouldn't be around people period. Put your hands up. Don't resist and this won't happen. How 🤬 difficult is that to comprehend?

Passing off counterfeit bills is something I wouldn't do in front of my kids, and deserves a warrant for arrest. Should someone doing that be killed?

 

[ryzno]

About as hard as understanding a warrant ≠ guilty?

Having a warrant doesn't = death penalty.
Fighting and assaulting an officer and refusing commands when he had a weapon cause he didn't want to go to jail is. IMO.

Let's just let everyone walk away when they have a warrant.
Oh and an FYI. You can have a warrant for something you've already been convicted of.
Go violate your parole/probation and get back to me...

Y'all really are defending criminals who didn't want to go back. It's hysterical!

 

[Northstar]

You left out the part," he had a warrant for his arrest for "sexual assault and battery" and the other part that he had "3 children in the vehicle"that could have been in grave danger if he drove away or had a weapon.
Report the facts.

Since we're now apparently playing the "could have" game, one of those 7 bullets could have missed Blake and found a home in one of said 3 children in the car instead. If anything the children being in close proximity makes the police look worse since they were putting them in far more danger than Blake was.

 

[Danoff]

Fighting and assaulting an officer and refusing commands when he had a weapon cause he didn't want to go to jail is. IMO.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Fighting and assaulting an officer and refusing commands when he had a weapon cause he didn't want to go to jail is. IMO.

That's not how the law works.

What was your position on undocumented immigrants who otherwise break no laws?

 

[Tornado]

Fighting and assaulting an officer and refusing commands when he had a weapon cause he didn't want to go to jail is. IMO.

Let's just let everyone walk away when they have a warrant.

So those are the two options? You either immediately submit to police upon request; or multiple cops will follow you to your car at arms length, apparently completely powerless to stop you, until you go to get in and then they have enough of a pretext to dump half a magazine into your back? That's the only way police can enforce warrants?

 

[Famine]

Having a warrant doesn't = death penalty.
Fighting and assaulting an officer and refusing commands when he had a weapon cause he didn't want to go to jail is. IMO.

That... that's your line when it comes to summary, extrajudicial execution?

Y'all really are defending criminals who didn't want to go back. It's hysterical!

If that's how you regard defending due process... sure.

I haven't kept up with this case, but what was the man who was shot seven times in the back while leaning into his car with his family in convicted of?

 

[ryzno]

That... that's your line when it comes to summary, extrajudicial execution?

If that's how you regard defending due process... sure.

I haven't kept up with this case, but what was the man who was shot seven times in the back while leaning into his car with his family in convicted of?

What did the man actually have in his car at the moment the situation arose?
So far everything points to at least a knife.

So those are the two options? You either immediately submit to police upon request; or multiple cops will follow you to your car at arms length, apparently completely powerless to stop you, until you go to get in and then they have enough of a pretext to dump half a magazine into your back? That's the only way police can enforce warrants?

Did you miss where he was tased twice?!

I'm honestly done.

And to whom it my concern, my bad about the profanity in my other post. I thought she censored everything in the post I shared.

 

[McLaren]

Fighting and assaulting an officer and refusing commands when he had a weapon cause he didn't want to go to jail is. IMO.

How is it that you & others repeatedly seem to find yourselves in the last 72 hours justifying death where it's not necessary in multiple scenarios.

I guess I have my answer from before wondering if the Patriot Prayer man deserved to die then.

 

[Danoff]

What did the man actually have in his car at the moment the situation arose?
So far everything points to at least a knife.