The 2020 George Floyd/BLM/Police Brutality Protests Discussion Thread

[Danoff]

It is odd to me how much of a difference the uniform makes when committing a crime. Passed a counterfeit bill while not a police officer? Death sentence. Choked a helpless guy to death while being a police officer? Seems legit.

 

[ToyGTone]

How much exposure do you really get though? Also, how can you be sure that person X is not against thing Y but supports thing Z? You can't. You're painting people with a broad brush and it'd be like me saying everyone in the Middle East is a terrorist.

I wouldn't be surprised if you or anyone else actually believe in that statement but besides that, i get what you mean.

There were hundreds, if not thousands, of protests last year and only a handful of them turned violent. Here in Salt Lake we can one violent riot despite having several protests a week for all of summer and autumn.

Unrelated but since then, anything major happened? For the better i mean. I don't hear as much news about this sort of issue as before.

 

[Joey D]

I wouldn't be surprised if you or anyone else actually believe in that statement but besides that, i get what you mean.

What makes you think that I would even remotely consider everyone from the Middle East a terrorist? That's an ignorant statement to make without any sort of proof.

Unrelated but since then, anything major happened? For the better i mean. I don't hear as much news about this sort of issue as before.

Yes, several areas are working on varying degrees of reform.

 

[TexRex]

I listed the situations that police handles and asked if the social workers should do that. I gave my answer as a no.

You quoted someone as addressing police response to situations where a police response is unnecessary, so that the police can then focus on situations where police response is appropriate or even necessary. Your argument against the text you quoted consisted of you rattling off situations where police response is appropriate or necessary. This is dishonest.

By the way, the notion of "unbundling" the police--removing them from situations where police response is unnecessary and inappropriate--is popular even in the law enforcement community, and has actually been put into effect to varying degrees in the United States since the early 2000s--well before "BLM" and "defund the police" movements--in municipalities across the country.

And I never said that every bad guy should be shot... so yeah.

You're doing it again. Nowhere in the text you quoted did I refer to anybody being shot or the appropriateness of such action. This is dishonest.

 

[unit-one]

No he didn't, and nor was the action taken by the police even close to proportional.

Um. If you don't comply with the police this is called resisting. He refused to get out of his car and then refused to get in their car.
At one point the police was pretty chill with him when he was sitting besides the wall.

That burden of proof would be on you.

What? Um... this is on their website.

You do understand that is in regard to the use of the technology?

I don't understand you, sorry.

Its far from rare enough and (this is the important bit) far more likely to happen to you if you are black, to a degree that is massively disproportionate.

I see that the police handles all colors equally. Only some black ones scream racism though.

Do you understand how comments like " those who get attacked for liquidating a dangerous criminal.!" come across in that regard?

Let me quote my original:
"Police are those guys who will run towards the gun shots, and now they are those who get attacked for liquidating a dangerous criminal."

I wasn't talking about Floyd. I was talking about situations when an armed guy gets shot and arrived bystanders start to scream at police for killing him. Usually it's when a black dude gets shot.

The only circumstance in which a suspect should be shot is if they pose an immediate and clear risk to the public, and I do mean immediate and clear. It should also still be the last resort to open fire. It should also be independently and openly investigated when it happens and consequences, both legal and civil should be possible if it's found to be unjustified.

That's what usually happens, yes.

As should be the case, it's not an easy job, but that doesn't mean the easy option should be taken. Nor should they be virtually immune for prosecution.

They are not immune and police should always find a way to catch the bad guy as effective as possible.

And your back to trying to justify police brutality.

Man, I don't know how you would apprehend a violent dude with your bare hands.
I don't understand how you want the police to act.

Let me make this simple, if an officer is unable to act proportionately they should not be doing the job.

What do you mean act proportionally?

You don't mistakenly kneel on the neck of someone for over nine minutes, you don't mistakenly ignore requests for help, you don't mistakenly refuse to allow medical professionals who are stating he is at risk to examine him.

Kneeling wasn't a mistake. Common way to keep the suspect under control. Guy could talk, so the officer didn't believe him.
And again you are talking about medics being refused to help. What kind of medical professionals are you talking about? The bystanders?

This was not a situation in which a choice had to be made in a split-second, this was a drawn out situation in which the officer had multiple opportunities to re-evaluate his actions and pick another course, he chose not to to.

Well they tried to get him in the car multiple times. I don't really understand why they kept him pinned for so long. Probably to exhaust him so it will be easier to pack him.

You agree with something I didn't say?

Um, yeah, I agree with something you didn't say. Because it was McLaren who said that.

Ah so it's OK if the person is stupid, or confused or in an altered state?

What makes a stupid or altered person less dangerous? They also pull guns.

You mean when he was already in cuffs and teh foolowing occured

Floyd told the officers that he was not resisting, but that he was recovering from COVID-19, that he was claustrophobic and had anxiety, and that he did not want to sit in the car.[9][10][16]:3:10[71] While Kueng and Lane attempted to put him in the car, Floyd begged them not to, repeatedly saying "I can't breathe" and offering to lie on the ground instead.

He wasn't resisting, was in distress (the cause of which is utterly irrelevant) and offered tp lie on the ground. He was not a threat at all at thispoint.

No he didn't and it should be irrelevant to the compassion you get, as you don't know the cause of it at all.

Nah, he was resisting. Three men couldn't get him sit in the police car and he had to be pulled from his own car. If that' not resisting then I don't know what it is.
I also don't get that claustrophobic thing. He can drive his car but he can't sit in a police car. He was in jail so how did they transport him then?

And too many incidents when they are not.

Maybe, maybe not.

And? What if they can't?

*shrugs* Continue to arrest them.

A knee was on his neck while the paramedics were attempting to do this, despite the fact he was motionless.

The medic came and did what he needed with no problems. The cop moved his knee to give the medic access to the neck.

You tone and apologist comments certainly make it appear as if you are justifying it.

*sigh* No. I am not justifying his death.

The police should never be trigger-happy, at all, that's the point.

Well that and the fact its almost impossible to hold them to account when they are.

They should be always ready if they see the suspect acting weird.

 

[McLaren]

Well how are you suppose to confront a heavily armed guy or a terrorist?
In a country where people can buy tanks, APC and high caliber weapons I think the police should be properly ready.

Do you know how regulated it is to buy a tank, APC, or high caliber weapons? First off, the state you live in is going to decide if it's even legal. Second, these things cost thousands and thousands of dollars. What idiot dumps 5 figures into a weapon just to make attempts at using it against police? Third, these things are registered and require background checks.

There's far too much money, paperwork, time, and effort required for police to worry about someone who goes through it all.

You are also continuously missing the point that it is the excessive amount of this equipment that finds it way to the police where the police looks less like they're here to protect society and more like an army that can suppress it at a whim.

I saw a lot of bodycam footage where the so called victim was revealed as the attacker. But I agree that current police budgets need to stay where they are.

How much bodycam footage have you seen where an officer was in the wrong? Or was it turned off when it happened?

And it's hard to predict if he actually has a gun or just fumbles in his pockets because he's stupid.

That doesn't justify a cop mag dumping into someone off the bat.

Yup, suspect runs away from the cop. Cop catches him. Suspect screams that he can't breathe.

I have a feeling you third party heard about a rumor of someone doing this, and think this is something multiple people try. Lol, it literally is not any sort of issue that happens every day.

What lie!? His first "I can't breath" was when the cops tried to put him in the police SUV. They were pretty gentle doing that by the way.
He did got put in handcuffs as soon as they pulled him from his car. He didn't cooperate with them at all.

Revisit what you said:

Too many people used and now use even more the "I can't breathe" phrase to stop the police from detaining them

Floyd was already detained and arrested before he said he couldn't breathe.

The more you resist the less compassion you will get. And Floyd resisted a lot.

That will never, in any situation, warrant death as a result in Floyd's case who was already detained and handcuffed.

If a person continues to resist, it gets brought against them in court.

 

[Scaff]

Um. If you don't comply with the police this is called resisting. He refused to get out of his car and then refused to get in their car.
At one point the police was pretty chill with him when he was sitting besides the wall.

So why didn't they leave him against the wall and or accept his request to be laid on the ground, and you know, de-esculate the situation?

What? Um... this is on their website.

That doesn't actually support the claim you made.

I don't understand you, sorry.

It's the use of these technologies for racial profiling, not the items themselves. It's borne from a well justified distrust of the police.

I see that the police handles all colors equally. Only some black ones scream racism though.

That is demonstrably utterly untrue.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli.../police-racism-violence-ideology-george-floyd
https://www.vox.com/2020/6/17/21284527/systemic-racism-black-americans-9-charts-explained
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-z

" About 1,000 civilians are killed each year by law-enforcement officers in the United States. By one estimate, Black men are 2.5 times more likely than white men to be killed by police during their lifetime1. And in another study, Black people who were fatally shot by police seemed to be twice as likely as white people to be unarmed"

And it doesn't just stop at law enforcement, black people are more likely to be convicted and receive longer sentences, even when all other factor are equal.

"African Americans are more likely than white Americans to be arrested; once arrested, they are more likely to be convicted; and once convicted, and they are more likely to experience lengthy prison sentences. African-American adults are 5.9 times as likely to be incarcerated than whites and Hispanics are 3.1 times as likely.4) As of 2001, one of every three black boys born in that year could expect to go to prison in his lifetime, as could one of every six Latinos—compared to one of every seventeen white boys.5) Racial and ethnic disparities among women are less substantial than among men but remain prevalent.6)

The source of such disparities is deeper and more systemic than explicit racial discrimination. The United States in effect operates two distinct criminal justice systems: one for wealthy people and another for poor people and people of color. The wealthy can access a vigorous adversary system replete with constitutional protections for defendants. Yet the experiences of poor and minority defendants within the criminal justice system often differ substantially from that model due to a number of factors, each of which contributes to the overrepresentation of such individuals in the system."

https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/

Let me quote my original:
"Police are those guys who will run towards the gun shots, and now they are those who get attacked for liquidating a dangerous criminal."

I wasn't talking about Floyd. I was talking about situations when an armed guy gets shot and arrived bystanders start to scream at police for killing him. Usually it's when a black dude gets shot.

You best cite some sources then, because the statistics don't back you up. Rather they back up black ppeople being more likely to be killed in interactions with the police, while being less likely to be armed during those situations.

That's what usually happens, yes.

Except it's increasingly not, and to a far lower degree if you are not white (see the above sources again).

They are not immune and police should always find a way to catch the bad guy as effective as possible.

I've already, in an earlier post, shown how in the majority of cases they are immune to civil recourse through a tool quite literally called qualified immunity. They are also less likely to be arrested, chanrged, convicted, and in the rare cases they are, the sentences are light.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/24/us/police-killings-prosecution-charges.html

Man, I don't know how you would apprehend a violent dude with your bare hands.
I don't understand how you want the police to act.

I've already explained that, you have chosen to ignore it in place of making up something I didn't say.

What do you mean act proportionally?

In proportion to the threat they face, so you know, not shooting a handcuffed man repeated while they are sat in a police car.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/maryland-...ooting-death-handcuffed-man/story?id=68599644

Kneeling wasn't a mistake. Common way to keep the suspect under control. Guy could talk, so the officer didn't believe him.
And again you are talking about medics being refused to help. What kind of medical professionals are you talking about? The bystanders?

Actually its not a common way of doing it, as it's well known to carry considerable risk and a number of forces have banned its use for that reason.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/28/us/george-floyd-knee-to-neck-excessive-force-trnd/index.html

Well they tried to get him in the car multiple times. I don't really understand why they kept him pinned for so long. Probably to exhaust him so it will be easier to pack him.

Yeah, after he had a fit and was then unconscious for minutes they still needed to exhaust him!

Um, yeah, I agree with something you didn't say. Because it was McLaren who said that.

He wasn't agreeing with you either!

What makes a stupid or altered person less dangerous? They also pull guns.

And they also get shot when they don't have guns, but you carry on pretending that's not the case.

Nah, he was resisting. Three men couldn't get him sit in the police car and he had to be pulled from his own car. If that' not resisting then I don't know what it is.
I also don't get that claustrophobic thing. He can drive his car but he can't sit in a police car. He was in jail so how did they transport him then?

You've never had a panic attack or suffered from claustrophobia have you?

Maybe, maybe not.

I've repeatedly posted the evidence and sources (and this thread is filled with them), that you still ignore them is now just wilful ignorance.

*shrugs* Continue to arrest them.

And that's how people die in police custody.

The medic came and did what he needed with no problems. The cop moved his knee to give the medic access to the neck.

Not true at all, and nor are the paramedics themselves (for whatever reason) blameless in this regard

"The body camera footage also shows delays by the officers and the paramedics who respond.

“This is a cascade of everything going wrong,” said Rohini J. Haar, a medical expert at Physicians for Human Rights, who reviewed the footage for The Times. “And they never recorrected course, even inside the ambulance.”"

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/george-floyd-body-cam-full-video.html

*sigh* No. I am not justifying his death.

You are, and repeatedly so.

They should be always ready if they see the suspect acting weird.

Define weird and what the proportional response to it is?

 

[unit-one]

How much exposure do you have of police in the US? Seeing some videos on the internet really doesn't show the big picture. Look at data.

Can you send me some links?

And yes, most cops are decent people who are just trying to do their job. However, there are enough horrible cops that it is a problem and what's worse is that the cops who are decent people mostly remain complicit in all of it, turning a blind eye when a bad cops does something wrong. In my job, I'm required by law to report a co-worker doing something illegal. If I don't report them, I'm subject to termination among other things for remaining complicit. Why cops don't have the same thing (I'm a government employee too) is beyond me.

I honestly don't remember why I added you to the ignore list... anyways...
Yes, I support reporting bad workers.
I also think that most cops are fine and sure there will be some bad ones. Nothing is perfect, sadly.

Do you even know what BLM does? Antifa really isn't a thing and is more of just a group of people looking to stir up trouble, but BLM is a legitimate organization looking to reform the justice system.

I got concerned after reading the info on their website. Looked like they are trying to take over the world.
We had a BLM protest over here. A peaceful one. But to me it's weird to see them protest in Estonia where most of the black people come to study and work.

Police should be defunded since they're overfunded to begin within many communities. Here in Salt Lake, we have an entire parking lot full of brand new, unused patrol cars that the police refuse to use because they aren't SUVs. That's a perfect example of being overfunded and a horrible use of tax dollars.

Modern SUVs are getting pretty universal. Cars are still better at pursuits... I think.

Most people aren't defending criminals, they're defending the right to due process, something guaranteed to American citizens in the Constitution. Cops can't, nor should, be the judge, jury, and executioner. They should make the arrest and then let the courts take it from there since that's how it works in America. Every citizen has rights and even the worst of society should be guaranteed those rights.

Well cops will be executioners if it's impossible to stop a shooter. :\
And it's pretty sad that even the worst scumbag still has human rights.

Jesus H. Christ. Tell you what, have someone kneel on your neck for nearly 9 minutes while you're restrained and see what happens. If you come back and post that you're alive and well, I will proceed to eat my entire hat collection.

I dieded.

So what about the suspects who don't have a gun then? Why do they get shot? I can only really comment on national stories along with local ones, but we had a 13-year-old autistic kid here in Salt Lake get shot multiple times in the back while walking away from police during a mental breakdown. Yup, real threat there. Or in another example, the police had a suspect at gunpoint, on the ground, who wasn't moving, and then ordered a K9 unit to attack him.

Hm, a story about a 13 y.o...
Well, his grandfather was shot after he threatened the neighbors and pulled a gun at deputies. The boy hated the police and was mentally unstable.
He ran away after refusing to go to hospital and his mom said that the boy could have a BB gun and she thinks that it's not a real gun.
The boy didn't comply with orders and was shot multiple times. It was a dark night. I don't see if the boy pulled something.
The situation could have been handled better if his mom said that the gun is definitely a toy and didn't say about the boy hating the police and his will to defend himself.

Suspects are usually scumbags, most criminals are. But even scumbags have rights.

Also, police body cams are good. They provide clean footage and audio. The problem is none of that works when the officer doesn't turn them on.

Nah, some of them are still have bad sound or video.

Floyd was on the ground and restrained, all the officer had to do was stand up or move his knee to the lower back. I don't know if you've ever been handcuffed, but it's incredibly difficult to stand up if you are.

Also, we have no idea if the $20 was actually fake or not. Floyd was accused of using counterfeit money and that's it. There's millions in counterfeit currency out there and the likelihood of someone unknowingly using it is high enough where it shouldn't really be shocking to anyone. Even then, using counterfeit currency doesn't carry the death penalty.

No, off course using counterfeit money doesn't carry the death penalty.

You quoted someone as addressing police response to situations where a police response is unnecessary, so that the police can then focus on situations where police response is appropriate or even necessary. Your argument against the text you quoted consisted of you rattling off situations where police response is appropriate or necessary. This is dishonest.

By the way, the notion of "unbundling" the police--removing them from situations where police response is unnecessary and inappropriate--is popular even in the law enforcement community, and has actually been put into effect to varying degrees in the United States since the early 2000s--well before "BLM" and "defund the police" movements--in municipalities across the country.


You're doing it again. Nowhere in the text you quoted did I refer to anybody being shot or the appropriateness of such action. This is dishonest.

My text was this: -"Defunding the police will make them less trained and have worse equipment."

McLaren replied saying this: -"Propaganda. The idea is to channel more resources into social welfare services for specific situations & allow police to remain focused on situations that need them more."

I answered this: -"Like situations where people get attacked, robbed and shot. Traffic violations. Those situations where the suspect resists, makes things worse and gets arrested or starts to fight or pulls a gun and gets shot. Are you going to send a social worker to those kinds of situations? No."

^I didn't put any words in his mouth. Just described the situations when the suspects get shot the most and asked if a social worker should handle those. Then I gave my own answer as a no.

My other text was: -"There are clearly too many bad guys in USA."

To which Scaff answered: -"So the solution is to simply kill them all without trial?"

I didn't understand why he thought that I would have this horrible solution for eliminating bad guys: -"Where did I say that? Don't put words in to my mouth."

Where am I being dishonest?

 

[Scaff]

If a person continues to resist, it gets brought against them in court.

A key point, as you say its the courts job to deal with this, not the polices job to meet out a summary punishment, which certainly seems to be what @unit-one is defending

To which Scaff answered: -"So the solution is to simply kill them all without trial?"

Where am I being dishonest?

You are being dishonest in claiming I said you said 'the solution was to kill them'. I asked you a question as to if you thought this was a solution.

A quite clear difference.

 

[Joey D]

Can you send me some links?

The most complete database is the National Violent Death Reporting System. The Washington Post keeps track of all the police killings and you can see a wider ranger here. There's also an interactive map that shows police killings too.

I got concerned after reading the info on their website. Looked like they are trying to take over the world.
We had a BLM protest over here. A peaceful one. But to me it's weird to see them protest in Estonia where most of the black people come to study and work.

What BLM organization did you look at? There are hundreds of them. We have six in Utah that I can think of off the top of my head and I'm willing to bet there are even more than that.

Modern SUVs are getting pretty universal. Cars are still better at pursuits... I think.

Right, but that doesn't excuse the millions of dollars worth of equipment going unused because the cops simply don't like it. It's a great example of being overfunded and wasting money. Many police departments could operate just as effectively with a smaller budget.

Well cops will be executioners if it's impossible to stop a shooter. :\
And it's pretty sad that even the worst scumbag still has human rights.

Cops shouldn't be the executioner. There are non-lethal or less-than-lethal means of stopping someone. A firearm should be the last resort.

With Floyd, the officer decided to be judge, jury, and executioner that day. Floyd was restrained on the ground, he was no longer a threat and the officer could've easily moved his knee away from Floyd's neck if he felt that he was a flight risk (how that could be I'm not sure). The officer also willingly ignored a comment about excited delirium, which is very much a thing during an arrest. There were four officers on the scene too. They could've easily picked up Floyd and put him in the back of a police car since a restrained suspect isn't really going to be able to fight you very well. If he continued resisting, then there are a whole host of measures the officers could've used from pepper spray to a taser.

Also, human rights are universal. Constitutional rights are granted to all US citizens, from the worst of society to the best. It's important for those rights to exist too. Think about if you were wrongfully accused of something and the police just felt like offing you that day. In their eyes, you're the scumbag, but in reality, you didn't do anything wrong. This is why we have a justice system and the burden of proof. Cops do the arresting of the accused and then the legal system takes over with prosecution with the ultimate verdict being handed down by a jury of your peers. Is it the best system? Maybe, maybe not, but I'll take that over cops (who are woeful undertrained and not versed in the law) carrying out the justice.

Hm, a story about a 13 y.o...
Well, his grandfather was shot after he threatened the neighbors and pulled a gun at deputies. The boy hated the police and was mentally unstable.
He ran away after refusing to go to hospital and his mom said that the boy could have a BB gun and she thinks that it's not a real gun.
The boy didn't comply with orders and was shot multiple times. It was a dark night. I don't see if the boy pulled something.
The situation could have been handled better if his mom said that the gun is definitely a toy and didn't say about the boy hating the police and his will to defend himself.

The boy didn't pull anything, he was walking away from the police (not running mind you) and one of the officers did a mag dump into the kid's back. Nevermind that we have a special unit here with the Salt Lake PD that handles people who have mental illness and are potentially violent towards themselves or others. They weren't brought in.

I don't know if you know anyone autistic, but there are several factors with their illness that might prevent them from complying with an officer. The boy's mother did tell the officers that it was a toy gun too, but they told her they had to assume it was real. I don't believe any images were released of the gun, but here in the US all toy guns have a blaze orange tip on them that can be spotted pretty easily or at least should be. The kid could've painted it, I don't know. But still nothing the kid did justify getting an entire mag put in his back.

The cops were in the wrong in the situation and resorted to lethal force (the boy didn't die) far too quickly. An officer could've easily tackled the kid since he was literally walking down the sidewalk or even deployed a taser. While there would certainly be some people who would criticize that, using either of those methods would've worked just as effectively and not resulted in a kid being shot by police.

 

[McLaren]

My text was this: -"Defunding the police will make them less trained and have worse equipment."

McLaren replied saying this: -"Propaganda. The idea is to channel more resources into social welfare services for specific situations & allow police to remain focused on situations that need them more."

I answered this: -"Like situations where people get attacked, robbed and shot. Traffic violations. Those situations where the suspect resists, makes things worse and gets arrested or starts to fight or pulls a gun and gets shot. Are you going to send a social worker to those kinds of situations? No."

^I didn't put any words in his mouth. Just described the situations when the suspects get shot the most and asked if a social worker should handle those. Then I gave my own answer as a no.

Except it comes across as if I had suggested a social worker would be going to those things, but the examples you brought up were already answered by "allow police to remain focused on situations that need them more".

 

[unit-one]

A key point, as you say its the courts job to deal with this, not the polices job to meet out a summary punishment, which certainly seems to be what @unit-one is defending

Scaff, I don't defend police being the judge and stuff. I defend justifiable shootings. The situations when police opens fire to save lives of others or theirs.

You are being dishonest in claiming I said you said 'the solution was to kill them'. I asked you a question as to if you thought this was a solution.

A quite clear difference.

I misinterpreted your message. Apologies for that. Trying to understand English language as best as I can.

So why didn't they leave him against the wall and or accept his request to be laid on the ground, and you know, de-esculate the situation?

I don't know. I wasn't working with them, so as you. I can only assume that they wanted him to... you know, come with them to the police station where they could figure out what's happening.
They did accept his request to be laid on the ground, but one of the cops decided to hold him with his knee.

That doesn't actually support the claim you made.

I just asked you who was the people that occupied the street (CHAZ thing) and said that BLM claims that they are the liberators and fighting white supremacy. How a quote from their website doesn't support what I said?

It's the use of these technologies for racial profiling, not the items themselves. It's borne from a well justified distrust of the police.

I don't understand this racism thing in USA. Black people are everywhere. Movies, music, games, politics, the president, police, military, space...
It's just so funny... black cop is called a racist if he conducts investigation or arrests a suspect.


That is demonstrably utterly untrue.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli.../police-racism-violence-ideology-george-floyd
https://www.vox.com/2020/6/17/21284527/systemic-racism-black-americans-9-charts-explained
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-z

" About 1,000 civilians are killed each year by law-enforcement officers in the United States. By one estimate, Black men are 2.5 times more likely than white men to be killed by police during their lifetime1. And in another study, Black people who were fatally shot by police seemed to be twice as likely as white people to be unarmed"

And it doesn't just stop at law enforcement, black people are more likely to be convicted and receive longer sentences, even when all other factor are equal.

"African Americans are more likely than white Americans to be arrested; once arrested, they are more likely to be convicted; and once convicted, and they are more likely to experience lengthy prison sentences. African-American adults are 5.9 times as likely to be incarcerated than whites and Hispanics are 3.1 times as likely.4) As of 2001, one of every three black boys born in that year could expect to go to prison in his lifetime, as could one of every six Latinos—compared to one of every seventeen white boys.5) Racial and ethnic disparities among women are less substantial than among men but remain prevalent.6)

The source of such disparities is deeper and more systemic than explicit racial discrimination. The United States in effect operates two distinct criminal justice systems: one for wealthy people and another for poor people and people of color. The wealthy can access a vigorous adversary system replete with constitutional protections for defendants. Yet the experiences of poor and minority defendants within the criminal justice system often differ substantially from that model due to a number of factors, each of which contributes to the overrepresentation of such individuals in the system."

https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/

From the VOX site:
"The ideology holds that the world is a profoundly dangerous place: Officers are conditioned to see themselves as constantly in danger and that the only way to guarantee survival is to dominate the citizens they’re supposed to protect. The police believe they’re alone in this fight; police ideology holds that officers are under siege by criminals and are not understood or respected by the broader citizenry. These beliefs, combined with widely held racial stereotypes, push officers toward violent and racist behavior during intense and stressful street interactions."

Yeah, basically what happens in reality. Police being nice to suspect or just call commands. Suspect resists. Police use force. It's super effective. People call police brutality.

I still don't understand where is the racism as all organizations and institutions have black people as leaders and important roles.
I think the main problem is the ghettos and gangs.

You best cite some sources then, because the statistics don't back you up. Rather they back up black ppeople being more likely to be killed in interactions with the police, while being less likely to be armed during those situations.

No bystanders here, but a protest was organized. Blocking roads and stuff... protecting dude with a gun.
"Free the people, fight the power." Yeah, free those gangstas.
"Defund, disband." Yeah, who needs police anyway?

bodycam:


That's what I'm talking about. People jumping in to conclusion too fast and starting protests. I would hate to live in such community that doesn't care about others. "What you are travelling somewhere? An ambulance or a fire truck in on the way? Nope, road is blocked we are angry."

Oh no! Racist white supremacy cops invade little black kids home and ruing the party! (sarcasm)


PoliceActivity is a good channel that will show good shootings, bad shooting, excessive force, annoying suspects and truly heroic situations.

As for the crowd. Here are they. Gathering like zombies.

In proportion to the threat they face, so you know, not shooting a handcuffed man repeated while they are sat in a police car.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/maryland-...ooting-death-handcuffed-man/story?id=68599644

Um, he tried to steal the car. He wasn't just sitting in the car. A car is counted as a deadly weapon.
The officer probably thought that the suspect got free and took the shot. He was wrong and got arrested.

Yeah, after he had a fit and was then unconscious for minutes they still needed to exhaust him!

No. Not necessary.

He wasn't agreeing with you either!

He was. <_<
Oh, he was just being sarcastic, okay. ^_^

And they also get shot when they don't have guns, but you carry on pretending that's not the case.

An unarmed human is still dangerous. Especially if he's on some wild drugs.
Beat the cop, take his gun...

You've never had a panic attack or suffered from claustrophobia have you?

Nope.

I've repeatedly posted the evidence and sources (and this thread is filled with them), that you still ignore them is now just wilful ignorance.

You posted 6 answers to me so far.
1 - nothing.
2- Stuff about de-scalation and immunity.
3- nothing
4- about Floys
5- The one that I'm answering right now. Stuff about racism, immunity again, handcuffed dude, Floyd cam.
6- nothing.

Well excuse while I go and read the other 50+ pages then and find some stats about how many unarmed people are getting shot.
And again, unarmed doesn't mean not dangerous.
And should I take your words as evidence when you are anti-police? No.

And that's how people die in police custody.

That's their problem.

Not true at all, and nor are the paramedics themselves (for whatever reason) blameless in this regard

"The body camera footage also shows delays by the officers and the paramedics who respond.

“This is a cascade of everything going wrong,” said Rohini J. Haar, a medical expert at Physicians for Human Rights, who reviewed the footage for The Times. “And they never recorrected course, even inside the ambulance.”"

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/george-floyd-body-cam-full-video.html

I don't know what was happening in the ambulance but the bodycam clearly shows the cop moving his leg so that the medic can check the pulse. I wasn't lying there.

You are, and repeatedly so.

No I'm not! I never said I was glad that he died! I never said that the cop was right! You are falsely accusing me!

Define weird and what the proportional response to it is?

Being twitchy, looking around, not complying, hiding hands, etc...
That all can lead to bad time for officer and for the suspect.

 

[unit-one]

The most complete database is the National Violent Death Reporting System. The Washington Post keeps track of all the police killings and you can see a wider ranger here. There's also an interactive map that shows police killings too.

Thanks =)

What BLM organization did you look at? There are hundreds of them. We have six in Utah that I can think of off the top of my head and I'm willing to bet there are even more than that.

blacklivesmatter.com

Right, but that doesn't excuse the millions of dollars worth of equipment going unused because the cops simply don't like it. It's a great example of being overfunded and wasting money. Many police departments could operate just as effectively with a smaller budget.

Yup. All that money could have went to buy some less lethal stuff.

Cops shouldn't be the executioner. There are non-lethal or less-than-lethal means of stopping someone. A firearm should be the last resort.

Speaking of less lethal. It's pretty risky to use. Especially when a human is far away or has thick clothes.

With Floyd, the officer decided to be judge, jury, and executioner that day. Floyd was restrained on the ground, he was no longer a threat and the officer could've easily moved his knee away from Floyd's neck if he felt that he was a flight risk (how that could be I'm not sure). The officer also willingly ignored a comment about excited delirium, which is very much a thing during an arrest. There were four officers on the scene too. They could've easily picked up Floyd and put him in the back of a police car since a restrained suspect isn't really going to be able to fight you very well. If he continued resisting, then there are a whole host of measures the officers could've used from pepper spray to a taser.

I think the tazer or pepper spray could have killed him quicker. :\
But yeah, police should only catch or eliminate if it's impossible to catch.

Also, human rights are universal. Constitutional rights are granted to all US citizens, from the worst of society to the best. It's important for those rights to exist too. Think about if you were wrongfully accused of something and the police just felt like offing you that day. In their eyes, you're the scumbag, but in reality, you didn't do anything wrong. This is why we have a justice system and the burden of proof. Cops do the arresting of the accused and then the legal system takes over with prosecution with the ultimate verdict being handed down by a jury of your peers. Is it the best system? Maybe, maybe not, but I'll take that over cops (who are woeful undertrained and not versed in the law) carrying out the justice.

Agree.

The boy didn't pull anything, he was walking away from the police (not running mind you) and one of the officers did a mag dump into the kid's back. Nevermind that we have a special unit here with the Salt Lake PD that handles people who have mental illness and are potentially violent towards themselves or others. They weren't brought in.

I don't know if you know anyone autistic, but there are several factors with their illness that might prevent them from complying with an officer. The boy's mother did tell the officers that it was a toy gun too, but they told her they had to assume it was real. I don't believe any images were released of the gun, but here in the US all toy guns have a blaze orange tip on them that can be spotted pretty easily or at least should be. The kid could've painted it, I don't know. But still nothing the kid did justify getting an entire mag put in his back.

The cops were in the wrong in the situation and resorted to lethal force (the boy didn't die) far too quickly. An officer could've easily tackled the kid since he was literally walking down the sidewalk or even deployed a taser. While there would certainly be some people who would criticize that, using either of those methods would've worked just as effectively and not resulted in a kid being shot by police.

They did had a chase before the shooting. I would have tazed him. But would that work? Some police departments practice akimbo with a tazer in left hand and a pistol in right hand. If tazer fails, they always have their gun ready.

 

[unit-one]

Do you know how regulated it is to buy a tank, APC, or high caliber weapons? First off, the state you live in is going to decide if it's even legal. Second, these things cost thousands and thousands of dollars. What idiot dumps 5 figures into a weapon just to make attempts at using it against police? Third, these things are registered and require background checks.

There's far too much money, paperwork, time, and effort required for police to worry about someone who goes through it all.

You are also continuously missing the point that it is the excessive amount of this equipment that finds it way to the police where the police looks less like they're here to protect society and more like an army that can suppress it at a whim.

Criminals don't need all that stuff to get guns. :\
You are not denying that there's a lot of unregistered weapons on hands?

How much bodycam footage have you seen where an officer was in the wrong? Or was it turned off when it happened?

It happens. Seen stuff.

That doesn't justify a cop mag dumping into someone off the bat.

People can survive a lot of holes sometimes.

I have a feeling you third party heard about a rumor of someone doing this, and think this is something multiple people try. Lol, it literally is not any sort of issue that happens every day.

Seen on vids.

Revisit what you said:

Floyd was already detained and arrested before he said he couldn't breathe.


That will never, in any situation, warrant death as a result in Floyd's case who was already detained and handcuffed.

If a person continues to resist, it gets brought against them in court.

Yes. Where did I say otherwise?

I don't understand why are you guys accusing me of thinking that it's good to kill people like that? What the hell, that even comes from a moderator!

 

[McLaren]

Criminals don't need all that stuff to get guns. :\
You are not denying that there's a lot of unregistered weapons on hands?

We went from police should have equal equipment to people who can buy APCs, tanks, & high caliber weapons to questioning if I'm denying there's unregistered weapons? I'm not entertaining you starting to move the posts.

Seen on vids.

Bull. ****.

I don't understand why are you guys accusing me of thinking that it's good to kill people like that? What the hell, that even comes from a moderator!

You literally just told me, "People can survive a lot of holes sometimes" in response to a cop shouldn't be mag dumping into someone without legit cause.

 

[TexRex]

It's just astonishing that these right-wingers reach so hard to not acknowledge that law enforcement officers ought to be held accountable for their actions when those actions involve violating rights of those whose rights they're expected to protect, particular when the result of action is the death of the individual whose rights they're expected to protect.

 

[Danoff]

It's just astonishing that these right-wingers reach so hard to not acknowledge that law enforcement officers ought to be held accountable for their actions when those actions involve violating rights of those whose rights they're expected to protect, particular when the result of action is the death of the individual whose rights they're expected to protect.

It's as though they don't understand rights at all!

 

[Scaff]

Yeah, basically what happens in reality. Police being nice to suspect or just call commands. Suspect resists. Police use force. It's super effective. People call police brutality.

So your response to sources is to make something up?

I still don't understand where is the racism as all organizations and institutions have black people as leaders and important roles.

I've literally supplied you sources, you have clearly failed to read them.

I think the main problem is the ghettos and gangs.

Then you will have no problem supporting that with evidence.

No bystanders here, but a protest was organized. Blocking roads and stuff... protecting dude with a gun.
"Free the people, fight the power." Yeah, free those gangstas.
"Defund, disband." Yeah, who needs police anyway?

bodycam:

I'm not going to watch numerous videos, how about you summarize them and provide written, verifiable sources. As I have done for you.

That's what I'm talking about. People jumping in to conclusion too fast and starting protests. I would hate to live in such community that doesn't care about others. "What you are travelling somewhere? An ambulance or a fire truck in on the way? Nope, road is blocked we are angry."

You are aware that most of these protests are evidence of people in a community caring for each other in the face of disproportionate policing?

Oh no! Racist white supremacy cops invade little black kids home and ruing the party! (sarcasm)

Poor sarcasm, given that no-one here has said all cops are bad.

PoliceActivity is a good channel that will show good shootings, bad shooting, excessive force, annoying suspects and truly heroic situations.

It's a clickbait YouTube channel focusing on mainly pro-police encounters and those who like to see the police shoot people. I'm not really surprised you like it, but it's certainly not a counter to actual sourced evidence.

As for the crowd. Here are they. Gathering like zombies.

Are you actually aware of the number of negative terms you use regarding anyone who questions police action? It's a rather clear bias.

Um, he tried to steal the car. He wasn't just sitting in the car. A car is counted as a deadly weapon.
The officer probably thought that the suspect got free and took the shot. He was wrong and got arrested.

He was handcuffed, with his arms behind his back, sat in the police car, with a seatbelt on. No circumstances at all justified the actiosn of the officer, who may well have been arrested, but the case was settled out of court and to date no legal action appears to have been prosecuted against the officer!

No. Not necessary.

So why did they continue to do so? Why, when one of the officers failed to find a pulse did they continue to exert force on his neck and not render him any form of assistance?

An unarmed human is still dangerous. Especially if he's on some wild drugs.
Beat the cop, take his gun...

You do know that its actually possible to not use deadly force in cases like this?

I mean lets take the example of four Swedish police officers on holiday in NYC who respond to a violent, physical attack on someone on the subway.

That's the same number of officers as in the George Floyd case, and in this case the alleged criminal is not simply resisting (as you claim George Floyd was), but actively involved in a direct assault on another person.

Two (not four) of the Swedish cops managed to restrain the attacker, without the need to use a choke hold or a knee to the neck, using non-lethal restraint techniques and without the need for handcuffs.

https://nypost.com/2015/04/22/swedish-cops-on-vacation-break-up-subway-fight/

US officers who have been trained in de-escalation are also quite capable of doing it, as can be seen in this case:

https://www.policemag.com/573327/ma...de-escalate-suspected-suicide-by-cop-incident

Or these three cases of people with mental health issues, two were shot dead (and without need - one within 40 seconds of the police arriving), in the one where they used de-escalation no one died.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41314562

They manage it in Canada as well:

https://globalnews.ca/news/4165255/toronto-van-attack-police-training-deescalation/

In fact its the norm pretty much the world over.

Nope.

Yet you are expert enough to dismiss them out of hand?

You posted 6 answers to me so far.
1 - nothing.
2- Stuff about de-scalation and immunity.
3- nothing
4- about Floys
5- The one that I'm answering right now. Stuff about racism, immunity again, handcuffed dude, Floyd cam.
6- nothing.

The majority of which contained cited quotes and sources, sources that its now rather clear you did not look at.

Here we go, as you missed all of them first time around:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/...-for-measures-beyond-de-escalation-training1/
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-police-immunity-scotus/
https://www.newsweek.com/george-floyd-autopsy-report-cause-death-1579393
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli.../police-racism-violence-ideology-george-floyd
https://www.vox.com/2020/6/17/21284527/systemic-racism-black-americans-9-charts-explained
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-z
https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/24/us/police-killings-prosecution-charges.html
https://abcnews.go.com/US/maryland-...ooting-death-handcuffed-man/story?id=68599644
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/28/us/george-floyd-knee-to-neck-excessive-force-trnd/index.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/george-floyd-body-cam-full-video.html

Well excuse while I go and read the other 50+ pages then and find some stats about how many unarmed people are getting shot.
And again, unarmed doesn't mean not dangerous.

So you acknowledge you have posted without bothering to research the matter?

And should I take your words as evidence when you are anti-police? No.

Assumption on your part, I'm anti police corruption and brutality. I have an issue with extra-judicial force and killings.

That's their problem.

No it literally isn't. They have rights and police officers should be respecting them in all circumstances.

I don't know what was happening in the ambulance but the bodycam clearly shows the cop moving his leg so that the medic can check the pulse. I wasn't lying there.

Oh that makes it all OK then. It utterly absolves the fact that they made applied pressure for minutes after they failed to find his pulse, after he had made it clear he was in distress, after he had a fit and after he had lost consciousness!

No I'm not! I never said I was glad that he died! I never said that the cop was right! You are falsely accusing me!

Posting it in bold doesn't make it more accurate. You have constantly used negative and insulting terms against people who protest police brutality, wished the police could use more force, assumed guilt in regard to people and constantly acted as an apologist for what are clear acts of extra-legal force. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its not a damn horse!

Being twitchy, looking around, not complying, hiding hands, etc...
That all can lead to bad time for officer and for the suspect.

So someone with mental health issues would fit that description perfectly, would the police be justified in using deadly force on them if they didn't comply quick enough? How quickly would be quick enough?

 

[unit-one]

We went from police should have equal equipment to people who can buy APCs, tanks, & high caliber weapons to questioning if I'm denying there's unregistered weapons? I'm not entertaining you starting to move the posts.


Bull. ****.

Huh? So I can't ask you this question? We were discussing the weapons that civilians can use.

You literally just told me, "People can survive a lot of holes sometimes" in response to a cop shouldn't be mag dumping into someone without legit cause.

But people do can survive a lot of bullet holes sometimes, am I wrong?
Sure if there's no cause then there's no point mag dumping. But the decision is mainly on the officers shoulders. Will he be right or wrong doing this.

So your response to sources is to make something up?

Nope.
Cop being nice. Suspect jumps for a gun. Suspect got shot. That's pretty proportional if you ask me.
Got a lot more examples, but you don't like this channel.

I've literally supplied you sources, you have clearly failed to read them.

Dude, if I fail to understand where's the racism, seeing that black people are everywhere that doesn't mean that I didn't read what you gave me.

Then you will have no problem supporting that with evidence.

Evidence that ghettos are hard to control and have a higher criminal rate than in the rest of the city? Or that gangs are bad?

I'm not going to watch numerous videos, how about you summarize them and provide written, verifiable sources. As I have done for you.

Ahahahah, you refuse to watch a couple of videos and ask me to write an essay about them while sending me links with tons of texts to read and the whole thread to analyze! And just before that you accused me of ignoring what you post! Ah, that's great!

You are aware that most of these protests are evidence of people in a community caring for each other in the face of disproportionate policing?

So most but not all. That doesn't mean anything. As we seen, protests start even if the force was proportionate.

Poor sarcasm, given that no-one here has said all cops are bad.

You didn't say anything good about them until this moment that's for sure.

It's a clickbait YouTube channel focusing on mainly pro-police encounters and those who like to see the police shoot people. I'm not really surprised you like it, but it's certainly not a counter to actual sourced evidence.

So I can't use videos from this channel because why? Not enough bad cops for you? Maybe because most of them aren't bad? I've seen plenty of bad stuff there.

Are you actually aware of the number of negative terms you use regarding anyone who questions police action? It's a rather clear bias.

Oh, you didn't like that I compared them to zombies? Sorry about that, they do look like them.
Questioning and screaming accusations are different things.

He was handcuffed, with his arms behind his back, sat in the police car, with a seatbelt on. No circumstances at all justified the actiosn of the officer, who may well have been arrested, but the case was settled out of court and to date no legal action appears to have been prosecuted against the officer!

You are probably not going to watch these since it's a clickbite channel, but here are some examples of people stealing cop cars with handcuffs behind their back. They didn't had the seatbelt on though but I don't think that it's hard to unbuckle.


Stealing a cop car that has weapons and gear is a serious thing.

So why did they continue to do so? Why, when one of the officers failed to find a pulse did they continue to exert force on his neck and not render him any form of assistance?

iunno, I wouldn't do that for so long.

You do know that its actually possible to not use deadly force in cases like this?

No way! You don't say! Oh! *eyeroll*

You do know that if a guy will get the cops gun during struggle then it's going to be a bad situation?

I mean lets take the example of four Swedish police officers on holiday in NYC who respond to a violent, physical attack on someone on the subway.

That's the same number of officers as in the George Floyd case, and in this case the alleged criminal is not simply resisting (as you claim George Floyd was), but actively involved in a direct assault on another person.

Two (not four) of the Swedish cops managed to restrain the attacker, without the need to use a choke hold or a knee to the neck, using non-lethal restraint techniques and without the need for handcuffs.

https://nypost.com/2015/04/22/swedish-cops-on-vacation-break-up-subway-fight/

Oh no, he can't breathe, why did they keep holding him like that!?

US officers who have been trained in de-escalation are also quite capable of doing it, as can be seen in this case:

https://www.policemag.com/573327/ma...de-escalate-suspected-suicide-by-cop-incident

Or these three cases of people with mental health issues, two were shot dead (and without need - one within 40 seconds of the police arriving), in the one where they used de-escalation no one died.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41314562

They manage it in Canada as well:

https://globalnews.ca/news/4165255/toronto-van-attack-police-training-deescalation/

In fact its the norm pretty much the world over.

Thank you! Finally some good stuff about cops from you.

Yet you are expert enough to dismiss them out of hand?

Nope.

The majority of which contained cited quotes and sources, sources that its now rather clear you did not look at.

Here we go, as you missed all of them first time around:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/...-for-measures-beyond-de-escalation-training1/
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-police-immunity-scotus/
https://www.newsweek.com/george-floyd-autopsy-report-cause-death-1579393
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli.../police-racism-violence-ideology-george-floyd
https://www.vox.com/2020/6/17/21284527/systemic-racism-black-americans-9-charts-explained
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-z
https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/24/us/police-killings-prosecution-charges.html
https://abcnews.go.com/US/maryland-...ooting-death-handcuffed-man/story?id=68599644
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/28/us/george-floyd-knee-to-neck-excessive-force-trnd/index.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/george-floyd-body-cam-full-video.html

I didn't miss them! Stop saying things about me, jeez!

So you acknowledge you have posted without bothering to research the matter?

I had my research and I posted my opinion. Didn't know that I had to read all of your posts in this thread though.

Assumption on your part, I'm anti police corruption and brutality. I have an issue with extra-judicial force and killings.

Well from what I've seen during our chat I made my assumptions, JUST LIKE YOU did about me!

No it literally isn't. They have rights and police officers should be respecting them in all circumstances.

I wish that civilians would respect the rights too, but that's a problem.

Oh that makes it all OK then. It utterly absolves the fact that they made applied pressure for minutes after they failed to find his pulse, after he had made it clear he was in distress, after he had a fit and after he had lost consciousness!

Nope, I didn't say that it was okay. I just answer what you say. And at first you said that the cops restricted the medics while in reality they didn't.

Posting it in bold doesn't make it more accurate. You have constantly used negative and insulting terms against people who protest police brutality, wished the police could use more force, assumed guilt in regard to people and constantly acted as an apologist for what are clear acts of extra-legal force. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its not a damn horse!

I will demand an apology from you if you continue to accuse me of defending the actions of the cops that arrested Floyd.
I am tired to repeat that I never said that it was okay. My OP even had words that the cops helped him die faster.
I don't support unneeded violence.
I posted in bold to make people see that I am not who you think I am.
You are a moderator, a person with strong support behind you! Do you want people to start sending me hate messages?

So someone with mental health issues would fit that description perfectly, would the police be justified in using deadly force on them if they didn't comply quick enough? How quickly would be quick enough?

Let's be honest. Nor you or me is a cop, so it's hard to say what we would do in that situation. What information we will get before meeting the suspect and how he will act.

 

[Keef]

Dude, if I fail to understand where's the racism, seeing that black people are everywhere that doesn't mean that I didn't read what you gave me.

Black people aren't in my white suburb. Explain that.

 

[TexRex]

You are a moderator, a person with strong support behind you! Do you want people to start sending me hate messages?

...

What?

 

[Scaff]

Nope.
Cop being nice. Suspect jumps for a gun. Suspect got shot. That's pretty proportional if you ask me.
Got a lot more examples, but you don't like this channel.

I also explained why, and why it constitutes poor evidence.

Dude, if I fail to understand where's the racism, seeing that black people are everywhere that doesn't mean that I didn't read what you gave me.

So please explain why a black man in the US is more than twice as likely to die at the hands of a police officer, but half as likely to be carrying a gun while doing so?

Explain why they are more likely to be stopped, arrested, changed and serve longer sentences when all other factor (apart from colour) are equal?

Evidence that ghettos are hard to control and have a higher criminal rate than in the rest of the city? Or that gangs are bad?

That they are the cause of the problem, as you claimed.

Ahahahah, you refuse to watch a couple of videos and ask me to write an essay about them while sending me links with tons of texts to read and the whole thread to analyze! And just before that you accused me of ignoring what you post! Ah, that's great!

I've not asked you to write an essay about them at all, I asked you to provide some context around why I should watch them. You know exactly as I have done by quoting the relevant points from my sources and then lining to the sources so you can check them for accuracy.

Not quite the gotcha you thought it was.

So most but not all. That doesn't mean anything. As we seen, protests start even if the force was proportionate.

No 'we' haven't seen that.

You didn't say anything good about them until this moment that's for sure.

I only needed to because of your rampant assumptions.

So I can't use videos from this channel because why? Not enough bad cops for you? Maybe because most of them aren't bad? I've seen plenty of bad stuff there.

I've already explained why.

Oh, and I didn;t say you couldn't use them, I explained why they don't present a very good argument for the point you are trying to argue.

Oh, you didn't like that I compared them to zombies? Sorry about that, they do look like them.
Questioning and screaming accusations are different things.

Doubling down on that bias now.

You are probably not going to watch these since it's a clickbite channel,

Ah, so you do know why its not a good source.

but here are some examples of people stealing cop cars with handcuffs behind their back. They didn't had the seatbelt on though but I don't think that it's hard to unbuckle.


Stealing a cop car that has weapons and gear is a serious thing.

Worthy of summary execution if an officer thinks you might be planning to do it?

Because that's literally the argument you are making.

iunno, I wouldn't do that for so long.

So why did they?

No way! You don't say! Oh! *eyeroll*

You do know that if a guy will get the cops gun during struggle then it's going to be a bad situation?

Oh no, he can't breathe, why did they keep holding him like that!?

Again I have already explained. That is a technique that doesn't pose anything close to the same risk as the knee on neck technique used on George Floyd, I literally posted a source that explained all of this.

Nope.

Then why did you?

I didn't miss them! Stop saying things about me, jeez!

So you just ignored them?

I had my research and I posted my opinion. Didn't know that I had to read all of your posts in this thread though.

Your research so far seems to be a conviction that racism isn't real and a click-bait, pro-police YouTube channel.

Well from what I've seen during our chat I made my assumptions, JUST LIKE YOU did about me!

Caps Locks doesn't make it anymore convincing.

I wish that civilians would respect the rights too, but that's a problem.

what is that even supposed to mean?

Nope, I didn't say that it was okay. I just answer what you say. And at first you said that the cops restricted the medics while in reality they didn't.

They did, moving your knee doesn't mean you allowed them full access.

I will demand an apology from you if you continue to accuse me of defending the actions of the cops that arrested Floyd.
I am tired to repeat that I never said that it was okay. My OP even had words that the cops helped him die faster.
I don't support unneeded violence.
I posted in bold to make people see that I am not who you think I am.
You are a moderator, a person with strong support behind you! Do you want people to start sending me hate messages?

You can demand away all you like, you have defended the actions they took.

You however can quite easily remedy that, why not break down what you think they did right and what you think they did wrong, and how (if at all) they should be held accountable for it?

Don't worry about the rest of my post, just break this down and clearly demonstrate critical thinking over the events in question.

Let's be honest. Nor you or me is a cop, so it's hard to say what we would do in that situation. What information we will get before meeting the suspect and how he will act.

It is indeed, but its not hard to know what is the wrong or right thing to do, its not hard to look at the techniques and methods used across the world and see which ones work and which ones don't. which ones constitute excessive force and are plainly illegal in application. It's not difficult to see that the structure of the US legal system makes it almost impossible for the police to be held truly accountable for illegal actions.

You do not need to be a cop to see any of this.

 

[ScottPuss20]

It seems as though I've walked straight into a dumpster fire.

 

[unit-one]

I also explained why, and why it constitutes poor evidence.

Yeah, you just don't like the channel and that makes the evidence poor. Genius!

So please explain why a black man in the US is more than twice as likely to die at the hands of a police officer, but half as likely to be carrying a gun while doing so?

Explain why they are more likely to be stopped, arrested, changed and serve longer sentences when all other factor (apart from colour) are equal?

Joey D actually was more useful than you at providing information. He gave me some links with statistics.
Talking to you is really hard. You constantly demand explanations.
I already said that I don't know why, yet you still demand answers!
I have seen equal handling to all colors. I can't explain what you want.

That they are the cause of the problem, as you claimed.

Yeah. Those places need to be addressed.

I've not asked you to write an essay about them at all, I asked you to provide some context around why I should watch them. You know exactly as I have done by quoting the relevant points from my sources and then lining to the sources so you can check them for accuracy.

Not quite the gotcha you thought it was.

I did provide context. People protested but the suspect had a weapon ready. Gotcha.

No 'we' haven't seen that.

Yeah, you just decided to close your eye as you don't like to watch videos.

I only needed to because of your rampant assumptions.

So what do you expect me to think about you then?

I've already explained why.

Oh, and I didn;t say you couldn't use them, I explained why they don't present a very good argument for the point you are trying to argue.

What's the point of using them if you just ignore them?

Doubling down on that bias now.

We all have our bias.

Ah, so you do know why its not a good source.

Yea, because you don't like it)

Worthy of summary execution if an officer thinks you might be planning to do it?

Because that's literally the argument you are making.

What? No.

So why did they?

iunno, I wouldn't do that for so long.

Again I have already explained. That is a technique that doesn't pose anything close to the same risk as the knee on neck technique used on George Floyd, I literally posted a source that explained all of this.

I was being sarcastic there if you couldn't tell

Then why did you?


So you just ignored them?


Your research so far seems to be a conviction that racism isn't real and a click-bait, pro-police YouTube channel.


Caps Locks doesn't make it anymore convincing.


what is that even supposed to mean?


They did, moving your knee doesn't mean you allowed them full access.


You can demand away all you like, you have defended the actions they took.

I didn't defend them! I demand an apology because you continue to portray me as a person who defends murder and police brutality!
You don't understand what I mean by saying that I miss nighsticks or when I say that the police have to shoot people.
You want proportionate actions and that is what I agree, but you still say that I defend excessive force!

You however can quite easily remedy that, why not break down what you think they did right and what you think they did wrong, and how (if at all) they should be held accountable for it?

Don't worry about the rest of my post, just break this down and clearly demonstrate critical thinking over the events in question.

No problem.
Right:
Basically everything until he got pinned down. They were nice to him until he got really annoying. The cop pulled a gun when he suspected that Floyd was grabbing his own, but quickly holstered it.
Wrong:
The cop kept him pinned down for too long. Others didn't do anything about it.
Yes, they should be held accountable for. How? I'm not a judge.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I didn't defend them! I demand an apology because you continue to portray me as a person who defends murder and police brutality!

Hmmm, that's rather ironic.

 

[McLaren]

Huh? So I can't ask you this question? We were discussing the weapons that civilians can use.

This part of the conversation started around tanks, APCs, and high caliber weapons, and eventually got to a talking point that police should have access to them because civilians have access to them.

In a country where people can buy tanks, APC and high caliber weapons I think the police should be properly ready.

The problem is the civilian access to these things is nigh impossible because once again, they require: money, time, paperwork, and approval. People who go through all that are not going to turn around and use them towards police.

How we then got to this:

Criminals don't need all that stuff to get guns. :\
You are not denying that there's a lot of unregistered weapons on hands?

Is moving goal posts or not knowing better.

We're talking about 3 things that are going to be 99% registered because of how regulated they are. How on earth do you think a criminal is going to get a tank, APC, or high caliber weapon without a lot of money & effort? What idiot do you think would go through the whole process of being granted registration & spending thousands and thousands of dollars will then just willfully sell it to a criminal? The barrel of a tank falls under a Destructive Device; you'd have to get past the ATF for that alone unless it is disabled.

If you're gonna shift the conversation to unregistered weapons, we're no longer talking about those items. We're talking about handguns, and likely shotguns right behind them, because those are far, far easier/cheaper to buy, trade, & sell amongst the population.

But people do can survive a lot of bullet holes sometimes, am I wrong?
Sure if there's no cause then there's no point mag dumping. But the decision is mainly on the officers shoulders. Will he be right or wrong doing this.

All it takes to kill someone is 1 shot. If you're mag-dumping into someone, the odds of survival drop significantly with each hit. If a cop is going to discharge his weapon like that, I expect him to be right in doing so.

After all, it's the way civilians are supposed to be taught here in the US in concealed carry classes; if you're going to pull a weapon on someone, you better make sure you have a rock solid reason for self-defense.

 

[unit-one]

This part of the conversation started around tanks, APCs, and high caliber weapons, and eventually got to a talking point that police should have access to them because civilians have access to them.

The problem is the civilian access to these things is nigh impossible because once again, they require: money, time, paperwork, and approval. People who go through all that are not going to turn around and use them towards police.

How we then got to this:

Is moving goal posts or not knowing better.

No, I got an answer from you, agreed and moved along to the next issue about weapons in civilian hands.

We're talking about 3 things that are going to be 99% registered because of how regulated they are. How on earth do you think a criminal is going to get a tank, APC, or high caliber weapon without a lot of money & effort? What idiot do you think would go through the whole process of being granted registration & spending thousands and thousands of dollars will then just willfully sell it to a criminal? The barrel of a tank falls under a Destructive Device; you'd have to get past the ATF for that alone unless it is disabled.

If you're gonna shift the conversation to unregistered weapons, we're no longer talking about those items. We're talking about handguns, and likely shotguns right behind them, because those are far, far easier/cheaper to buy, trade, & sell amongst the population.

Yes, handguns and shotguns are usually the most common unregistered weapons.

All it takes to kill someone is 1 shot. If you're mag-dumping into someone, the odds of survival drop significantly with each hit. If a cop is going to discharge his weapon like that, I expect him to be right in doing so.

After all, it's the way civilians are supposed to be taught here in the US in concealed carry classes; if you're going to pull a weapon on someone, you better make sure you have a rock solid reason for self-defense.

One shot is not always enough. I agree with everything else.

 

[McLaren]

No, I got an answer from you, agreed and moved along to the next issue about weapons in civilian hands.

I must be lost on the agreement part, because your response to me explaining the process for acquiring any of those 3 items being a lengthy & expensive consumption was, "Criminals don't need that stuff to buy guns". And then proposed a follow-up asking if I was denying there are unregistered weapons.

Do criminals need that stuff to buy guns? No. But we were not talking about run-of-the-mill guns like pistols. 2 of the 3 items we initially discussed aren't even actually guns. Are there unregistered weapons out there? Of course. Pointing out the 3 items we were talking about as rarely unregistered weapons because of how thorough the ATF is with them isn't insinuating otherwise.

 

[merseyxshore]

I just can't wrap my head around why a white 15 year old Estonian is riding so hard for the American police. This is a weird hill to die on mate.

 

[Scaff]

Yeah, you just don't like the channel and that makes the evidence poor.

Yeah, you just decided to close your eye as you don't like to watch videos.

What's the point of using them if you just ignore them?

Yea, because you don't like it)

No, the channel is not a source of solid evidence. No context is provided, the source's motives are profit driven, no third party sources are provided to be able to verify its content and the vast majority of the material is pro-police.

I dislike the channel as a source of evidence, period.

Genius!

Cut the passive aggressive attitude.

Joey D actually was more useful than you at providing information. He gave me some links with statistics.
Talking to you is really hard. You constantly demand explanations.

Odd, as the sources I provided also contained statistics, and within them links to more data and statistics, I've even quoted those statistics directly in post as well.

I already said that I don't know why, yet you still demand answers!
I have seen equal handling to all colors. I can't explain what you want.

Where have you seen "equal handling to all colors"?

The statistical data of police interactions in the US shows that black males are more than twice as likely to die at the hands of the police than a white male, yet they are half as likely to be carrying a gun at the time. You dismiss race as a cause of this, so it's quite reasonable to ask why you dismiss it as a cause and what you think the cause is.

Yeah. Those places need to be addressed.

I agree, but that's not the point you made. You said they were the real problem in regard to violence in the US, I asked you why and that has not been addressed. Every country has gangs and ghettos, yet the US is almost unique in regard to its level of gun violence, so what makes US gangs and ghettos unique in that regard?

I did provide context. People protested but the suspect had a weapon ready. Gotcha.

That's not context. who had a weapon ready, what was the case. Provide us with the details, ideally with a credible source so we can look into it ourselves.

So what do you expect me to think about you then?

To be honest. I really don't care what you think about me, and that's not unique to you either. I have no control over

We all have our bias.

Indeed, but the point is to recognize them and address them, not embrace them.

What? No.

That's a start.

iunno, I wouldn't do that for so long.

I know, you have now said that a number of times. The question is why did they, and why did them not stop and readdress the situation?

I was being sarcastic there if you couldn't tell

I have ASD, so no I don't always pick up on it.

I didn't defend them! I demand an apology because you continue to portray me as a person who defends murder and police brutality!
You don't understand what I mean by saying that I miss nighsticks or when I say that the police have to shoot people.
You want proportionate actions and that is what I agree, but you still say that I defend excessive force!

Let's look at your opening post in this discussion, and even removing the biased language you used in general terms we get this:

"As for Floyd... he would have died anyways without the police help. He had foam around his mouth and was screaming of breathing problems way before being pinned down. I don't have any sympathy towards him. A criminal buried in a golden casket and cities got burned... disgusting."

'he would have died anyway'

'i don't have any sympathy for him'

'a criminal buried in a golden casket'

'disgusting'

In this opening salvo you removed any blame from the police, blamed the victim and referenced the utterly unrelated point of his past life. I hate to break it to you, but that's defending the murder of George Floyd and defending police brutality.

It's only since members in this thread have challenged you on this that you have started to walk it back.

No problem.
Right:
Basically everything until he got pinned down. They were nice to him until he got really annoying. The cop pulled a gun when he suspected that Floyd was grabbing his own, but quickly holstered it.

You missed that before they pinned him down they ignored an individual in clear distress, a point that he repeatedly and politely said to them, a point that the passenger in his car repeatedly and politely told them. Something that you hand wave away as being 'really annoying' was in fact a quite clear indication that he was not alright. That cause of him being in distress is also irrelevant, and the police's go to action for being annoyed should not be brute force and dangerous restraint.

The fact of the matter is that George Floyd was in fact apologetic to the police, respectful (referring to them as Mr. Officer and Sir repeatedly) , clearly fearful of his life (please don't shoot me was said multiple times), clealry in distress and altered. Points they ignored and just tried to stuff him in the car.

I would suggest you read the full transcript from the police bodycams, which supports all of the above, and clearly shows a man in distress, who regardless of any past crimes or suspected crimes, was willfully failed by the police, and failed repeatedly.

BodyCam Transcript.
https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthe...b81216735f2203a08cb/optimized/full.pdf#page=1

Wrong:
The cop kept him pinned down for too long. Others didn't do anything about it.
Yes, they should be held accountable for. How? I'm not a judge.

He didn't need to be pinned in the first place, they failed to de-escalate the situation, they failed to provide medical attention when they knew they couldn't find his pulse, they made conscious decisions over the course of minutes that resulted in the death of a human being. A human being you said you had no sympathy for and described simply as a 'criminal'.

It also came to light in yesterdays evidence that the officers did block a trained EMT from assisting...

"Genevieve Hansen, a trained emergency medical technician (EMT) and Minneapolis firefighter, said she identified herself as a first responder and demanded officers check his pulse when she saw George Floyd on the ground.

Hansen then called 911 to report what she saw.

Hansen lives within walking distance of Cup Foods and was taking a walk the evening of May 25, 2020. When she approached the corner, she saw the police lights and heard a woman across the street screaming they were killing him.

She was concerned by what she saw. “He wasn’t moving, and he was cuffed. And three grown men putting all of their weight on somebody is too much,” she said. “The first thing that concerned me was his face was smushed into the ground. Swollen. It appeared swollen to me.”

She noticed that Floyd had an altered level of consciousness and wasn’t moving despite Derek Chauvin’s knee on his neck.

Her main focus was how she could gain access to the patient or direct offers to provide treatment, she testified.

“I already assessed that he had an altered level of consciousness what I needed to know was whether or not he had a pulse anymore,” she said.
She identified herself as a firefighter to former officer Tou Thao, who said if she was really a firefighter she would know better than to get involved.

Hansen never saw officers take a pulse, but she could not entirely see all four of them. "

...they dismissed a trained first responder, who may well have been able to save George Floyds life, or at the very least give him a chance. A trained professional, who clearly saw he was in distress and in danger was ignored!

https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/derek-chauvin-trial-day-two-testimony/index.html