The Childfree Thread.

[photonrider]

I'm not missing your point. I just find it somewhat distasteful.

That's judgmental; but again your choice.

What did you think was my point?


If it makes any difference to your 'judgment' I have raised four children.

 

[kikie]

It's a good thought, and one that a lot of people don't consider. You should know, however, that you can have children without them being related to you. There are a variety of ways to accomplish that. I'm not necessarily advocating that you do that, just wanted to make sure you were aware of the options.

Yes!

But I think that when I meet someone and she wants children and I do as well (you never know how I'd feel if I should meet my life partner), I want these children to be my own flesh and blood. There is always a possibility that the genetic defect isn't going to be inherit by them.

 

[Carbonox]

To all those who don't want kids then that is your choice, but i have to ask, do you not have a deep down feeling that you want to pass on your genetics, just from a survival point of view?

But thing is, it's not really about survival these days. Even though I'm technically the last person carrying my last name (got 4 cousins with it but they're all female - not that they'd automatically change their name in the event of marriage ), it doesn't mean much to me because once I'm dead, I won't care about my 'legacy' any longer.

And I already said I don't want to take the chance with Asperger's. By killing off my line I'm also killing off the possibility of someone inheriting it from me.

 

[David]

We are both harassed constantly by our parents who are aching for grandchildren.

I know in your case you probably don't mind hearing this since you do want kids eventually, but typically when I hear parents pressure their kids into giving them grandchildren it makes my blood boil. It's probably the most selfish, obnoxious thing you can say to someone. "I want a grandchild." "I want a neice/nephew." Piss off.

To all those who don't want kids then that is your choice, but i have to ask, do you not have a deep down feeling that you want to pass on your genetics, just from a survival point of view?

I really don't, and I don't fully comprehend why anyone does. Can't imagine caring about what happens after I'm dead. I don't want kids specifically so that I can continue to be "selfish" and enjoy my life however I see fit. Pretty sure my sister wont ever have kids either. As for my last name, I have a male cousin who can pass that along if he wants.

 

[watermelon punch]

That's judgmental; but again your choice.

What did you think was my point?


If it makes any difference to your 'judgment' I have raised four children.

No, that doesn't make a difference.

And I apologize, I didn't express my thought very well.
What I should've said instead was, I read & understood what you were talking about, I just didn't think your manners recommended your opinions.

Yes!

But I think that when I meet someone and she wants children and I do as well (you never know how I'd feel if I should meet my life partner), I want these children to be my own flesh and blood. There is always a possibility that the genetic defect isn't going to be inherit by them.

Not only that... But if you adopt - that child would possibly be inheriting who knows what from their biological parents.

So obviously adoption would only be a viable alternative to someone worried about heredity issues, if the person worried has good reason to worry about genetic issues that are much more likely to be passed than in the general population, and worse in prognosis. IE: Not the run of the mill "my family has a history of..." whatever common treatable ailment an adopted baby is more or less just as likely to have in their family history.

As for my last name, I have a male cousin who can pass that along if he wants.

That cousin has 1/8 of your genetics to pass along too. I mean just in case anybody cares.
(Or is it 1/16? I don't feel like thinking about the math. But you get the picture. It's something. ha ha)

So it took me a little bit to find (and now I've bookmarked it), a comment I read months ago, which kind of summed up what I think the crux of the matter is when things get weird or uncomfortable when people start discussing the topic of parenthood, and the choices (and reasons) people talk about for being non-parents.

Context: The original topic was a blog post criticizing a column written by someone who calls the choice between parenthood or non-parenthood to be somehow "shallow" in the context of women's equality.
In other words, that the idea women should have equal rights in society, does not include the right to make lifestyle choices with comfort & personal preference in mind.
Sound vaguely familiar?

Someone who commented on the blog, apparently agreed with that notion, that women should make decisions to not have children, based on their desires for their lifestyle. (Then on what? I don't know.)
This woman made a (likely thoughtless) off-hand comment that most of the women she's known who don't want kids, she's noticed they generally turn out to be, in her opinion, "a navel gazing POS".
Sound vaguely familiar?

In other words, that people's choices for not having children are somehow "shallow".

Here's the response I thought explains the different viewpoints beautifully...

Comment on a blog...

Maybe I’m just a shallow, navel-gazing POS, but I’ve found that there are two ways of looking at it. If you consider having children to be the highest calling it may seem like every reason people without children give is shallow because they are rejecting what you consider to be the most worthy use of time. But if you consider that some people have different priorities then the choice they are making suddenly makes a lot more sense and seems a lot less superficial. Honestly, if I had children and I had the same priorities I do right now, that would be selfish. Because I acknowledge that given the amount of time I’ve put into my academic career makes it unlikely that my priorities are going to shift anytime soon, recognizing that adding children to the mix would end badly is possibly the least selfish, shallow thing I can do. The reasons for not having children are only selfish if you [think of] having children as the only good path a person can take in their life.

I think it should be added to this line of thinking the fact that this woman, or someone childless like her (male or female) might be the person who works on research that leads to a cure to a disease that extends some parents' lives so that they can live to see & enjoy their great-grandchildren, or extends or improves the life of some parents' children or grandchildren.
They could also be like my childless teacher I mentioned earlier.

In that sense, it's impossible to say that choosing to be childless is not potentially influential in the betterment of the next generation or humans of the future.
It could be even less obvious or direct than that. And far less obvious a connection.

We live in a society!

I think this was what Photonrider was essentially getting at (in a round about, and less than pleasant way).

Everyone has the potential to contribute. And sometimes contributions are not obvious, nor blatantly recognized, and nowhere near direct.

But I think the sanctimony with which some parents react, in a knee-jerk fashion, to reasons that seem "shallow" to them, are definitely based on their own recognition of their parenthood being important to them. And rightly so, I think it's good if parents see their parenthood as an important thing in their life!!
But I think it's more thoughtful, considerate, and wise, to consider that someone else's priorities may be not only different, but may in fact lead to a better choice for everybody in civilization.
What seems shallow in one way... not wanting to spend time fussing with babies (diapers, soccer, whatever)... could free up their time for other productive pursuits OR lead to avoidance of destructive ones.

We're all in it together!

 

[Danoff]

But I think it's only fair to point this out, and how we, the non-parents, see this sort of thing.

Incidentally I am a parent, just not of a child that is biologically related to me. But I had a long look at living without children and I'm happy to defend anyone who makes that choice (for whatever reason) from the "you must have children" crowd.

Here's the truth:

You were never in the GTPlanet Dads Thread; you must have pooed in some other punch-bowl. Did it end in a brawl?

Must have been one of the father's day threads. I hate fathers day.

 

[Roo]

Basically, I'm a selfish prick who would rather spend his time on himself than on kids. And I'm pretty OK with that.

This. My housemate's cat annoys me by being so needy all the time, and I don't even have to look after it. I just find children - young children in particular - frustrating and irrational. That said, I find that with most adults too, so I'm stopping this train of thought because it always ends in me realising I hate everyone. And my own hypocrisy makes me angry.

I have another good reason. It's a personal reason that makes sense in my mind but probably doesn't when other's read it.
This reason is 'genetics'.

And this. There's bits of my psyche that I'm not keen on, and whilst science (as best I understand it) is not certain on whether genetics has any part to play in those bits, I'm not willing to take the risk.

To all those who don't want kids then that is your choice, but i have to ask, do you not have a deep down feeling that you want to pass on your genetics, just from a survival point of view?

Not even slightly. When I'm dead, I'm dead. I will have ceased to exist. Anything that happens afterwards is inconsequential to me.

---

Tried replying to your post below, Danoff, but I can't explain myself out of a paper bag. Just know that I'm aware my opinions are generally tripe.

 

[Danoff]

And this. There's bits of my psyche that I'm not keen on, and whilst science (as best I understand it) is not certain on whether genetics has any part to play in those bits, I'm not willing to take the risk.

I have no idea why people are so focused on the notion that having a child means the child is biologically related to you. It is very possible, from a variety of methods, to have children that don't share your genetics, and I think it's something more people should consider. I'm sure you have other reasons for not wanting kids, but this isn't one of them.

 

[OwensRacing]

The irony of adults on a gaming site not wanting children is quite comical to me.

While some excuses put forth are very valid. In general it's comical.

 

[David]

The irony of adults on a gaming site not wanting children is quite comical to me.

While some excuses put forth are very valid. In general it's comical.

I don't think it's ironic or comical at all. In fact, the decision to not have kids allows me to have more time and money for hobbies like sim racing and being a part of a community like this. Not being responsible for someone else gives me the freedom to do what I want when I want. Also, the notion that gaming is only for children seems a bit outdated.

 

[kikie]

Is not having children a selfish thing? There are probably so many souls in heaven waiting to be born.

 

[Danoff]

Is not having children a selfish thing?

In many many cases, having children is a selfish thing. And there's nothing wrong with being selfish and deciding to have children (or not). The only truly unselfish act would be to raise adopted children that you don't want to raise, and that seems like a bad idea.

 

[Famine]

People should think twice before they keep churning out child after child, that's what will bring famine

Well it certainly did for my parents.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

Very good thread. This has actually been the topic I have purposely avoided all my life.

I am 36. I have NEVER wanted a child and I know I never will. I have been around children my entire life. I do not want the responsibility. I grew up in a very poor family and hardly had anything growing up. Having no children also allows me to do anything I want, buy anything I want, and live anywhere anyhow I want. I also don't have to worry about a child every day in this messed up world of violence, abuse, child kidnapping, and bullying. Financially I would not own everything I own today if I had children. I LOVE being completely free.

I have nothing against children, I just don't want the financial or psychological responsibility. I am a very independent person.

 

[Cano]

I also don't have to worry about a child every day in this messed up world of violence, abuse, child kidnapping, and bullying.

My wife also brings this up everytime. You see how the world is today and it makes you take a deep breath. Do you really want to bring a boy into this gruesome mess? Even less so if you live in this god-forsaken country.

 

[OwensRacing]

I don't think it's ironic or comical at all. In fact, the decision to not have kids allows me to have more time and money for hobbies like sim racing and being a part of a community like this. Not being responsible for someone else gives me the freedom to do what I want when I want. Also, the notion that gaming is only for children seems a bit outdated.

You are not gonna see what I see. You are too wrapped up in yourself to do so.


As for your last comment. I have to laugh as you have know idea what kind of gamer I am. Let's just say my kids and I are pretty serious gamers.

 

[Carbonox]

You are not gonna see what I see. You are too wrapped up in yourself to do so.


As for your last comment. I have to laugh as you have know idea what kind of gamer I am. Let's just say my kids and I are pretty serious gamers.

You're not exactly seeing what we see either, as you're blinded by your irrational holier-than-thou attitude. Maybe if you understood there's actually more than one way to spend one's adulthood, we'd already have a good start...

 

[Danoff]

If I had to take a wild guess, I'd guess that ownes is saying that your kids don't have to end your gaming life - in fact they can be part of it. If that's true, he's only partly correct.

 

[OwensRacing]

You're not exactly seeing what we see either, as you're blinded by your irrational holier-than-thou attitude. Maybe if you understood there's actually more than one way to spend one's adulthood, we'd already have a good start...

Narcissistic much?

Say what you will. It's not I that is going against natural order.

If you think it's natural to not want children then we will obviously never agree.

Funny how all animals seek to reproduce. They do so to ensure their species survives. Whatever didn't click in you and others brains isn't my problem. Maybe lack of testosterone. No self respecting Alpha male doesn't want to reproduce.

Enjoy the narcism.

 

[Danny]

Well that was rude.

 

[OwensRacing]

Well that was rude.

Sometimes reality isn't all video games and fun. The again. . . LoL

 

[Carbonox]

Narcissistic much?

Say what you will. It's not I that is going against natural order.

If you think it's natural to not want children then we will obviously never agree.

Funny how all animals seek to reproduce. They do so to ensure their species survives. Whatever didn't click in you and others brains isn't my problem. Maybe lack of testosterone. No self respecting Alpha male doesn't want to reproduce.

Enjoy the narcism.

What I said was confirmed in this post. Holier-than-thou attitude written all over it.

Never once did I use the nature argument. I'm willingly going against nature because I'm pursuing happiness that I will not find by creating new life. The whole concept of a family sounds terribly distant, serious and borderline boring. I'll take the freedom over the misery, thank you.

Also, thanks for questioning my masculinity. Love ya, let's maybe have some tea later? You can also come to my aerobic course anytime you want.

 

[Akmuq]

Narcissistic much?

Say what you will. It's not I that is going against natural order.

If you think it's natural to not want children then we will obviously never agree.

Funny how all animals seek to reproduce. They do so to ensure their species survives. Whatever didn't click in you and others brains isn't my problem. Maybe lack of testosterone. No self respecting Alpha male doesn't want to reproduce.

Enjoy the narcism.

Dense.

 

[Joel]

Narcissistic much?

I dunno. I think it's pretty narcissistic to say that you need to ensure your genes carry on.

 

[OwensRacing]

Dense? Wouldn't expect a narcissistic person to even begin to accept any fault.

I've Unsubscribed. Knowing there is not a chance at a narcissistic person seeing errors in themselves it's a complete and utter waste.

Enjoy. Hope being lonely doesn't drive you to depression. Then again you can just blame others. LoL

 

[Carbonox]

That was a quick argument.

I could just use the saying about playing chess with a Christian an entitled parent. When they're losing, they topple all the pieces, 🤬 on the table and walk off pretending they won.

 

[Akmuq]

Did he just joke about depression?

 

[Danoff]

Narcissistic much?

Say what you will. It's not I that is going against natural order.

Everyone participating in this thread is a natural biological entity acting in full concert with the natural order - we're all natural.

Funny how all animals seek to reproduce. They do so to ensure their species survives. Whatever didn't click in you and others brains isn't my problem. Maybe lack of testosterone. No self respecting Alpha male doesn't want to reproduce.

I take it you go around raping whatever female attracts you and attempting to kill her mate... oh, wait, you don't behave like an animal? Are you telling me you allow your rational brain to get in the way of your biological urges? No friggin way.

Personally I believe all contraception is against the natural order.

 

[Katiegan]

Dense? Wouldn't expect a narcissistic person to even begin to accept any fault.

I've Unsubscribed. Knowing there is not a chance at a narcissistic person seeing errors in themselves it's a complete and utter waste.

Enjoy. Hope being lonely doesn't drive you to depression. Then again you can just blame others. LoL

You are a prime example of what @watermelonpunch was talking about. You are the narcissist. You believe reproducing is the only way to go and anybody who doesn't want kids is bad and should feel bad. One of the biggest reasons (as well as just generally not liking them like I said before) why I don't want children is because of my choice in career. I want to be a mechanic, eventually for a race team that travels around the world, for example a WRC team. If I have children, not only will they either not see me often or have to travel all the time, how many times have you seen a pregnant mechanic? I can't have a baby bump and squeeze under a car. I would have to take a lot of time off work, because even the stress of being a WRC mechanic - who only get certain amounts of time to do big jobs - will affect my baby's development and possibly even cause it to be still born. My French teacher has had to go on maternity leave early because her baby wasn't developing under the stress. But then I would have to pay for child care because I would be working around the world again, the child wouldn't even grow up with me there half of the time, and it just wouldn't be good for me or the child. Granted, the child's father might still be in the picture, but I'm sure he'll have a job to go to, meaning the child rarely has both parents, if any at all there. I don't want the risk of losing a child or having a child born with an illness because of my job. But, I'm in the wrong? I'm in the wrong for thinking practically and realistically? Do you know why humans have to avoid having children unlike animals? Because humans have jobs and other circumstances that animals don't have. For some people it's just not practical.

And I don't even know what to say about your last sentence. I take it only children can provide company, not partners or any other family. Because it's not practical for me to have a child I'm going to spend the rest of my life alone and depressed. What about people who's children don't want anything to do with them? What if their partner decides to take the children away from them, and they're not allowed to see them, simply because the two parents don't see eye to eye anymore? It happens a lot, and these people can become lonely and depressed. But they reproduced, didn't they? So they can't be lonely and depressed?

 

[W3H5]

Speaking of parental duties interfering with hobbies, has madmike posted anytime recently?