The EU

[KSaiyu]

There's a topic about Britain leaving the EU but I figured a new one is overdue considering recent developments.

What do Europeans (and others) think of it, where its headed and what they want from it.

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David Cameron has triggered the first row with Brussels of his new government by rejecting proposals to distribute refugees evenly across Europe.

The prime minister has turned to the “nuclear option” and invoked a 1997 opt-out to prevent him being defeated in a vote among EU heads of government. The plan would require Britain to double the number of asylum seekers it takes to about 60,000, including thousands pulled from the Mediterranean.

It became clear yesterday that Britain was struggling to mobilise a blocking minority among the EU’s 28 members and was likely to lose a vote at a meeting of leaders to discuss the mandatory quota system next month.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4437625.ece

 

[Liquid]

We need an EEC, not an EU.

 

[Joel]

EU? More like EWW..

 

[mustafur]

EU? more like The European union of Germany.

 

[Dennisch]

The United States of Europe.

Where the rules are different for every citizen.

As @Liquid said, it should be the EEC and nothing more. There are too much cultural differences to ever make it work as a Union.

 

[Liquid]

As @Liquid said, it should be the EEC and nothing more. There are too much cultural differences to ever make it work as a Union.

Not that there's anything wrong with cultural differences, of course. I'm very much a Eurocentric xenophile and love the different people, languages and ideas mingling together; evident because I've had one job in the UK and three jobs elsewhere in the EU.

I must have said it in the old Eurozone Crisis thread but economic co-operation is fine but economic assimilation just won't work. If I run a butchers and I want to export sausages and beefsteaks to the Netherlands, or Sweden or Greece, it's a great idea if there is less paperwork and fewer duties and levies on those products. It's also great if other butchers in those countries are able to send me nice things with no hassle in return. Your lovely, friendly EEC. In fact, it was joining the EEC which made Britain go decimal. We might still have 240p per £1 had it not been for that!

But having, for example, the same currency ruins it. €1 in Slovakia just isn't the same as €1 in France, Portugal or Ireland. When it comes to sovereignty, a country must be able to dictate its own finances. No wonder Hungary, Czechia, Poland and Sweden are doing everything they can to retain their own currencies.

And having this 'Union' and giving a country like Greece an unlimited credit line is 🤬 dangerous and stupid. Those decision makers are equally culpable.

Then there's your MEP. What on earth can your MEP do apart from claim expenses on the Brussels gravy train?

 

[Hun200kmh]

Is this thread about the EU itself or the UK leaving or staying (considering recent developments)? If it is about the EU I think the EU, with or without the UK, is a political and economical inevitability. Size matters and this is evident for EU countries big or small.

This is not exclusive to the EU, but is fairly simple to understand:

1) Big countries have their already big influence heightened in the diplomatic world arena by all the small countries they have as allies or partners in treaties, alliances or any other kind of multi-country institutions;

2) Small countries have their meaningless influence when alone made relevant if they have a seat, a voice and a vote inside institutions regulated by treaties where other small and big countries also have seat, voice and vote.


The EU is indeed a novelty because it regards itself as a "project" aimed at something else that is not what it is now. So, it begs (from its members) both the respect for what has been achieved and agreed, but also a the will to continue a path of integration. Some resist it more than others, some may want out at some point, and say that things were better before. It's all part of the game and the game is itself a process.

Many hurdles are on the way and the most recent one that needed to be adressed was the question of economic discipline. It might be said that this should've been the the first step for economic assimilation (not the common currency) but the fact is that the rules were in place, and some thought they could be broken without consequence. Thankfully it has emerged that they can't. Even with all the copmpromises typical of the political process.

As for the UK leaving or staying ... I don't think it's a very serious problem (for the EU I mean), the UK has been always a country with one foot in and one foot out.

All I can say is that I am glad I bought my Morgans when the pound was cheaper (from a Euro user point of view).

As for the EU achieving some sort of agreement on immigrants and immigrant quotas, again the UK being out of it is not surprising. The problem isn't on their shores, so tipically they won't care.

 

[KSaiyu]

Is this thread about the EU itself or the UK leaving or staying (considering recent developments)?

It's about the EU as a whole. Britain getting antsy is probably the most recent development, although for the past few weeks it would have been Greece's predicament.

 

[Carbonox]

To be fair, I'd prefer it if we followed down Britain's path, towards full independence again. It's actually quite disgraceful, when I think about it, to just basically give away political power to Brussels for free after barely clinging on to independence in WWII...

 

[KSaiyu]

The European Time Working directive is a joke. There's simply no way to be a safe and competent doctor working 48 hour weeks after qualification.

 

[Scaff]

The European Time Working directive is a joke. There's simply no way to be a safe and competent doctor working 48 hour weeks after qualification.

Why given that you can chose to be bound by it or opt out?

 

[KSaiyu]

Why given that you can chose to be bound by it or opt out?

Not as simple as that:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...doctors-under-european-working-time-directive

 

[Scaff]

Not as simple as that:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...doctors-under-european-working-time-directive

I'm still not seeing what makes it a 'joke' in that. Its not perfect and needs review on both sides, but simply scrapping it isn't the answer in my mind (with some junior doctors who opt out then working 90+ hours with the risks to patient care that poses).

 

[KSaiyu]

It came out of good intentions, but you know what they say about ideas like that.

Fact is it's debatable which is more dangerous - the inexperienced doctor or the tired one. And one of those you can "fix" by having self discipline and saying enough is enough with work without some overly restrictive law.

There's perhaps a place for it in making sure lower paid workers aren't worked to death, but a pan-European law is not it.

 

[Scaff]

It came out of good intentions, but you know what they say about ideas like that.

Fact is it's debatable which is more dangerous - the inexperienced doctor or the tired one. And one of those you can "fix" by having self discipline and saying enough is enough with work without some overly restrictive law.

Which may require some protection being in place to ensure that you can say enough is enough and I can say with 100% experience that anyone who is tired has no chance of being able to learn and effectively retain the knowledge.

There's perhaps a place for it in making sure lower paid workers aren't worked to death, but a pan-European law is not it.

Why only protect the low paid from being worked to death?

 

[KSaiyu]

Why only protect the low paid from being worked to death?

They are more vulnerable to exploitation. Not saying junior doctors aren't, but they're more aware of their "rights".

 

[eran0004]

The European Time Working directive is a joke. There's simply no way to be a safe and competent doctor working 48 hour weeks after qualification.

40 hours is the standard in Sweden.

 

[KSaiyu]

It's the standard working week here, but 48 is the limit - something completely unsatisfactory for a doctor in specialist training.

 

[Hun200kmh]

40 hours is the (continental ) European standard I think ...

EDIT - Corrected by faster poster @KSaiyu , so apparently 40 hours is the standard all over Europe.

 

[Joel]

Not that there's anything wrong with cultural differences, of course. I'm very much a Eurocentric xenophile and love the different people, languages and ideas mingling together; evident because I've had one job in the UK and three jobs elsewhere in the EU.

I must have said it in the old Eurozone Crisis thread but economic co-operation is fine but economic assimilation just won't work. If I run a butchers and I want to export sausages and beefsteaks to the Netherlands, or Sweden or Greece, it's a great idea if there is less paperwork and fewer duties and levies on those products.

I'll admit I don't have a deep understanding of the issues with the EU but to me this (economic differences) seems to be the biggest issue. It just seems very odd to me that Germany, the UK, the Netherlands, and Austria are on the same currency as Portugal and Greece.

 

[Liquid]

It just seems very odd to me that Germany, the UK, the Netherlands, and Austria are on the same currency as Portugal and Greece.

Fortunately.

 

[Joel]

Fortunately.

Er...yeah. I guess that would be why it seems odd

 

[Hun200kmh]

The UK being outside of the euro has - I think - little to do with sharing a common currency with small european countries. I think the UK fears having the same currency that ze germans and ze frrench have. It's not a monetary, economic issue. It is a political one.

People usually tend to look at the euro as a currency with problems, because some small countries with economic problems use it. Well, it can be said that there are some very strong economies using it too. So, using the euro isn't bad itself, it all depends on who uses it and how.

Browsing the web I found an article in the "Irish Times" on this subject. Agree or disagree, it is well written and gives some food for thought (and it's written in English, everyone here can read it).

True, it goes against everything I read written by british GTPers, and it is of course from an Irish newspaper, but it is worth a read, especially for those that really don't have a clue on what the "pro-euro" camp are saying, and take it as undisputed truth that the UK is better off outside of the eurozone.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/o...he-eu-it-should-join-the-euro-group-1.2199674


The way I see it, I suspect the UK in the long run weakens itself in the global markets by holding on to the Pound. But I'm more than willing to be proven wrong and, in fact, I can only wish well to the Brits, so if I'm proven wrong I won't mind a bit.

 

[Scaff]

True, it goes against everything I read written by british GTPers, and it is of course from an Irish newspaper, but it is worth a read, especially for those that really don't have a clue on what the "pro-euro" camp are saying, and take it as undisputed truth that the UK is better off outside of the eurozone.

Let me break that trend for you. I'm pro Europe.

 

[Dotini]

Let me break that trend for you. I'm pro Europe.

Does that mean you are for joining the EU?

 

[Scaff]

Does that mean you are for joining the EU?

Umm, we already are?

 

[Dotini]

Umm, we already are?

Allow me to rephrase that, please.

Are you for joining the "Eurozone", or monetary union of Europe?

 

[Scaff]

Allow me to rephrase that, please.

Are you for joining the "Eurozone", or monetary union of Europe?

At the current moment it wouldn't make sense (but it would make my job easier - setting budgets, process and billing in multiple currencies is a pain, one less would be handy).

However on a general level do I have an 'odd' attachment to the pound? Nope.

 

[Dotini]

At the current moment it wouldn't make sense (but it would make my job easier - setting budgets, process and billing in multiple currencies is a pain, one less would be handy).

However on a general level do I have an 'odd' attachment to the pound? Nope.

So when the moment makes more sense - perhaps next year - then you would definitely be for it, or at least not against it for odd or unnatural reasons?

 

[Hun200kmh]

If the UK would ever decide to adopt the euro as currency it should never be at a time when the pound -euro exchange rate got unbalanced, because it would cristalyze like that.

I know for a fact that some UK companies that depend on the exports they do to the european makets are suffering heavily with the current situation. And they are praying that the euro regains some value against the pound. Not sure how it is going with imports but I suspect BMWs have suddenly become a lot cheaper in the UK. If they haven't , they should, I know of a UK car maker that has their cars significantly more expensive here in Portugal then they were only a year ago.