The Formula 1 calendar development threadFormula 1

[Grand Prix]

The Netherlands and Portugal have no Grade-1 circuits. Zandvoort and Portimao might be able to get Grade-1 licences, but it will probably be an uphill battle; major upgrades will be needed, and in the case of Zandvoort, the locals might protest the noise.

... And you think the liberals and environmentalists of New Jersey and New York won't? You're hilarious. (I know, you didn't actually say that, but still funny)

Look at all the freakin' houses and apartments on the streets of the proposed layout. Not all of the residents will have the time or the money to spare to go away for the weekend.

I can see it now: "Eco-friendly Protests to begin in New Jersey to prevent Grand Prix of America"

Of course I'm probably over reacting after experiencing something similar when Champ Cars moved away from Vancouver.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

... And you think the liberals and environmentalists of New Jersey and New York won't? You're hilarious.

Actually, it would be in the interests of those liberals and environmentalists to encourage Formula 1. Formula 1 develops a lot of the technology that trickles down to road cars. The big push at the moment is for green technology in the sport. When the new engines are introduced in 2014, they'll be more efficient than they are now. KERS will also be further developed, and that's a technology that overcomes problems that a hybrid cannot solve. When you push the accelerator, you increase the engine revolutions and gain speed. When you push the brake pedal, you slow down, but the engine keeps spinning. It's inefficient, even in hybrids. KERS captures this otherwise-wasted energy and feeds it back into the car. Now, that technology might be some years away from entering mass production, but it's constantly being developed. Williams are already working on second-generation KERS devices, like their flywheel-based system. If the liberals and environmentalists actually knew this, they might warm to the idea of the race because the sport is developing technologies that they would approve of.

 

[Grand Prix]

Actually, it would be in the interests of those liberals and environmentalists to encourage Formula 1. Formula 1 develops a lot of the technology that trickles down to road cars. The big push at the moment is for green technology in the sport. When the new engines are introduced in 2014, they'll be more efficient than they are now. KERS will also be further developed, and that's a technology that overcomes problems that a hybrid cannot solve. When you push the accelerator, you increase the engine revolutions and gain speed. When you push the brake pedal, you slow down, but the engine keeps spinning. It's inefficient, even in hybrids. KERS captures this otherwise-wasted energy and feeds it back into the car. Now, that technology might be some years away from entering mass production, but it's constantly being developed. Williams are already working on second-generation KERS devices, like their flywheel-based system. If the liberals and environmentalists actually knew this, they might warm to the idea of the race because the sport is developing technologies that they would approve of.

Would they want to see this technology roaring past their apartment and blocking their normal everyday routes though? That's the big question. Although I guess it's a big question for all street circuits really.

 

[coldfoot]

Here's the track in Google Maps. If you have the Google Earth plug-in, you can also view it in 3D:
http://g.co/maps/xujb9

I live a couple miles north of this location...In fact, a view of the track right before the chicane after the uphill climb after the bridge, it's from the Mexican restaurant up there:

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I think that chicane is probably going to be the most interesting part of the circuit. When a Formula 1 car climbs a hill, it technically becomes lighter, therefore making it go faster. It's seven hundred metres from the start of the climb (Turn 3) to the actual chicane, and then another kilometre from the hairpin itself to the turn at Donnelly Memorial Park. The whole section is flat out, and will probably be critical to the lap. So while the chicane looks like a slow corner, I think drivers will be taking it a lot faster than you would expect them to.

 

[astrosdude91]

Quite alot of houses and townhomes along that route. I wonder if there would be any sort of plan for the people who live there. Though, the residents could certainly make a very pretty penny renting out their balconies to spectators.

 

[Grand Prix]

Quite alot of houses and townhomes along that route. I wonder if there would be any sort of plan for the people who live there. Though, the residents could certainly make a very pretty penny renting out their balconies to spectators.

That would be the smart thing to do.

 

[coldfoot]

A good friend of mine lives up high in Galaxy Towers (The 3 huge towers north of the hairpin after the downhill) but his apt. faces north...Maybe I can convince him to move to a south facing apartment

 

[Northstar]

A good friend of mine lives up high in Galaxy Towers (The 3 huge towers north of the hairpin after the downhill) but his apt. faces north...Maybe I can convince him to move to a south facing apartment

Or tell him to become good friends with someone on that side, he has over a year and a half to do it!!!

 

[SagarisGTB]

And yet, there is a substantial following Stateside. The old race at Indianapolis used to attract a lot of spectators.

That "substantial following" leads to average tv ratings of 500-600 thousand, with peaks of just over a million for North American races. For comparison, Hungary regularly gets over a million in tv ratings for a country of 10 million, a tv share of over 40% on Sunday afternoons. Does Hungary also need a second GP for all it's fans?

There's all relatively small countries.

Small countries that still pull in 5-10 million in average tv ratings. Nearly 10 in the case of Italy.

The Austin and New Jersey circuits are over two thousand kilometres apart. They're serving two entirely different audiences.

We could have a race in Novosibirsk (3300 km from Sochi) and Vladivostok (3700 km from Novosibirsk). Three Russian races would serve three entirely different audiences. Right?

France is believed to be sharing an event with Belgium from 2013; Spa and Paul Ricard will alternate the way Hockenheim and the Nurbrugring do in Germany.

Ok, so France will have a race every two years and USA will have two races every year. I wonder which one has television ratings that are ten times the other's?

The Netherlands and Portugal have no Grade-1 circuits. Zandvoort and Portimao might be able to get Grade-1 licences, but it will probably be an uphill battle; major upgrades will be needed, and in the case of Zandvoort, the locals might protest the noise.

The Algarve circuit (near Portimao) is a new state-of-the-art racing facility. They tried to get F1 to come to Portugal but money and market size got in the way. Nothing wrong with the circuit.

As for the Netherlands, they have no suitable circuits but that doesn't mean one can't be built or a street race can't be organized. Unfortunately, long gone are the days of existing circuits attracting F1.

As for Poland, they have no racing circuits,

But they do. I was at one of them myself.

And it's besides the point. How many racing circuits are located in Monaco or Singapore? The two US racing circuits that will host F1 very soon don't even exist.

and I don't think they have enough of an economy to support the race. If it weren't for the rise of Robert Kubica, nobody would think to have a race in Poland.

But that's the whole point. Kubica's stardom has driven the popularity of F1 to explode. Though ratings have fallen this year due to his absence, they are still far higher than the pre-Kubica era. And far higher than the US's ratings.

Also, Poland's economy is larger than Argentina's or RSA's. With more F1 fans too.

There are also a handful of other countries that I think would be more important to Formula 1 than Portugal, the Netherlands and Poland: namely South Africa (which Bernie has said is the priority once Russia joins in 2014), Mexico and a second race in South America, probably in Argentina.

You forgot Qatar, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Oman.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

That "substantial following" leads to average tv ratings of 500-600 thousand, with peaks of just over a million for North American races. For comparison, Hungary regularly gets over a million in tv ratings for a country of 10 million, a tv share of over 40% on Sunday afternoons. Does Hungary also need a second GP for all it's fans?

No, because Hungary's population is a fraction of America's. It's not just about catering to existing fans and markets - it's about finding new fans and markets. Hungary has a population of nine million people. The Greater New York Metropolitain Area - the five boroughs of New York City, plus the Jersey side of the Hudson - have over twenty million people.

Small countries that still pull in 5-10 million in average tv ratings. Nearly 10 in the case of Italy.

What's your point? That races should only be held in races with high television ratings? How on earth do you expect the sport to find new markets and fans?

We could have a race in Novosibirsk (3300 km from Sochi) and Vladivostok (3700 km from Novosibirsk). Three Russian races would serve three entirely different audiences. Right?

No. Motorsport as a whole is under-developed in Russia. They have a few international drivers - Petrov, Aleshin, Afanaysiev and so on - but there is no real domestic scene. We're yet to see how a Russian Grand Prix will be accepted by the Russian public.

But on the other hand, motorsport is already well-established in America. There is a guaranteed audience there; it's just a question of attracting them.

Ok, so France will have a race every two years and USA will have two races every year. I wonder which one has television ratings that are ten times the other's?

Again, you're trying to decide races based on viewing figures.

The Algarve circuit (near Portimao) is a new state-of-the-art racing facility. They tried to get F1 to come to Portugal but money and market size got in the way. Nothing wrong with the circuit.

If they can't afford a race, why should the suddenly be gifted one? Because they have a circuit? There are plenty of countries with Grade-1 circuits - why aren't you gifting them a race?

As for the Netherlands, they have no suitable circuits but that doesn't mean one can't be built or a street race can't be organized. Unfortunately, long gone are the days of existing circuits attracting F1.

They may not have suitable circuits, but is there public demand for a Dutch Grand Prix? The German, British, Belgian and upcoming French Grands Prix are all within driving distance for the Dutch.

But they do. I was at one of them myself.

I meant no racing circuits of Grade-1 status.

And it's besides the point. How many racing circuits are located in Monaco or Singapore? The two US racing circuits that will host F1 very soon don't even exist.

Monaco only has rom for one circuit. Singapore has the Marina Bay circuit, and is lokoing to attract MotoGP and V8 Supercars with a new circuit at Changi Airport.

As for the American circuits, no they don't exist - yet. The Circuit of the Americas is well into construction, and Port Imperial can be built in about the same time as Monaco.

But that's the whole point. Kubica's stardom has driven the popularity of F1 to explode. Though ratings have fallen this year due to his absence, they are still far higher than the pre-Kubica era. And far higher than the US's ratings.

But that doesn't address the matter of whether they can actually afford it. And again, the Poles are in close proximity to the Hungarian and German races.

Also, Poland's economy is larger than Argentina's or RSA's. With more F1 fans too.

So why have the Argentines and the South Africans submitted bids for races, and the Poles have not?

You forgot Qatar, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Oman.

Qatar, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Oman have shown no interest in a Grand Prix. They want to invest in the sport in other ways, because with two races in the region already, it will be very difficult to attract fans. So they know the best way forward is to invest in the teams.

What this really boils down to is, as you said in your first post, the way you are "upset" that America will have two races. You want to start races on the basis of one variable when there are several that influence where races are established. You say Poland has a bigger economy that Argentina and South Africa - but can it sustain a race in the long term? Would the Polish government be willing to support the race? Can it afford to invest hundreds of millions of dollars just to build a circuit in the first place?

Buddh International in India supposedly cost $400 million on the circuit alone. Add to that a $50 million sanctioning fee every year for ten years, and a Grand Prix costs close to a billion dollars over a decade.

 

[Northstar]

That "substantial following" leads to average tv ratings of 500-600 thousand,

I'll be honest and say I'm not familiar with the TV deals in other countries outside the US and England(only because it's talked about here) so please don't get mad at me if the following situation is the same elsewhere.

Here stateside, F1 is broadcast on SPEED, which is not just a cable channel but a premium channel that is usually not available on low tiers of TV service(I know I had to get the 3rd tier to get it on DirecTV). Now on top of that the races are normally on at 7AM CST with some being even earlier and 2 being on at later hours(not counting the 3 delayed races shown on Fox which usually have to compete with live NASCAR races). Those things combined will of course lead to lower numbers as not everyone is willing to spend more and wake up at odd hours, it doesn't mean the fanbase doesn't exist.

 

[Grand Prix]

I'll be honest and say I'm not familiar with the TV deals in other countries outside the US and England(only because it's talked about here) so please don't get mad at me if the following situation is the same elsewhere.

Here stateside, F1 is broadcast on SPEED, which is not just a cable channel but a premium channel that is usually not available on low tiers of TV service(I know I had to get the 3rd tier to get it on DirecTV). Now on top of that the races are normally on at 7AM CST with some being even earlier and 2 being on at later hours(not counting the 3 delayed races shown on Fox which usually have to compete with live NASCAR races). Those things combined will of course lead to lower numbers as not everyone is willing to spend more and wake up at odd hours, it doesn't mean the fanbase doesn't exist.

Right. So perhaps the goal for having two races in the US, is to have more races that normal, non-dedicated, potential-fans can actually watch. On top of Australia, Brazil, and Canada already broadcast at reasonable hours. (Malaysia and Japan are pushing it, but doable for some people once they start following the sport I suppose)

Personally I don't see how an extra race in the US is going to attract more fans than usual, but at least the Port Imperial layout looks good. Perhaps if enough viewers are captivated by the fast S bends and hills of Port Imperial, (and maybe some crashes) they'll tune in to Austin (hopefully with an intense championship fight going on then), and then maybe *gasp* watch an entire F1 season the following year?!?

Or not.

 

[dynasty_dennis]

@prisonermonkeys & SagarisGTB:

Regarding your discussion about a suitable race track in the Netherlands:

What about the Assen race track where e.g. the Superbike World Championship and Moto GP take place ? Can't it be used for Formula 1 ?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

ChampCar went there a few years ago. The consensus was that it's not very good for cars.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I'll be honest and say I'm not familiar with the TV deals in other countries outside the US and England(only because it's talked about here) so please don't get mad at me if the following situation is the same elsewhere.

Here stateside, F1 is broadcast on SPEED, which is not just a cable channel but a premium channel that is usually not available on low tiers of TV service(I know I had to get the 3rd tier to get it on DirecTV). Now on top of that the races are normally on at 7AM CST with some being even earlier and 2 being on at later hours(not counting the 3 delayed races shown on Fox which usually have to compete with live NASCAR races). Those things combined will of course lead to lower numbers as not everyone is willing to spend more and wake up at odd hours, it doesn't mean the fanbase doesn't exist.

On the basic cable for where I live speed is offered. Now Versus is a premium channel where I come from.

 

[dynasty_dennis]

ChampCar went there a few years ago. The consensus was that it's not very good for cars.

Hm okay, thanks for the info. But do you know why they said that it is not very good for cars ? Is it because the track is too narrow ?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Just the general layout. What's challenging for bikes is fairly "meh" for cars. Kind of like the way Barcelona is the most middle-of-the-road circuit in terms of car setup.

 

[jjaisli]

On the basic cable for where I live speed is offered. Now Versus is a premium channel where I come from.

I think both channels are part of my basic cable package. Or at least the basic upgrade pacakge, and not part of premium package. But I believe the point Justin was trying to make to SagarisGTB, was that public viewership numbers of the US based F1 audience, compared to other countries, is a skewed statistic, simply because less than half of US households are able to watch the race, even if they wanted to.

The fact that less than half of US households are even awake when most F1 races take place is another matter. As is the fact that there are no US teams or drivers currently competing in F1. And the fact that the US, like Australia or Germany, also has their own tin-top series, (not to mention, premiere open wheel series and numerous lower tier series) which are, by all accounts, more popular locally than F1. Despite this, the US has a long history with Grand Prix racing, although, much of it remains in the distant past. And there was a time, back in the late 70s and early 80s, when the US, like Italy or Germany at the time, hosted 2 rounds of the F1 World Championship.

But now-a-days, F1 is much less about actual racing than it is about big money, big corporate sponsorship, ritz, glamour, prestige. That's why the F1 circus is breaking into markets like China or Singapore or Bahrain or India--not because those countries have a passion for motorsports, but because they're rising economies with governments willing to spend enormous amounts of money for the residual benefits of hosting a race.

The US, by comparison, has a long and rich history of motorsports. Despite not having an F1 team, it makes sense to have a race or even two races in the US because: (1) despite the recession, there is a lot of disposable income here, (2) there are 370 million people (3) a lot of corporate sponsors here and finally (4) there are a lot of motorsports fans in the US. As prisonermonkeys pointed out, the US Grand Prix at Indianapolis was either the highest attended or 2nd highest attended race on the F1 calendar, every year it was part of the world championship. Not bad for a country that supposedly has no F1 fans and gets constantly chided and ribbed for it's NASCAR fixation. America may have a small percentage of Grand Prix Fans relative to the size of it's large population compared to countries in Western Europe. But it does have a lot of very passionate fans.

That said, I'm willing to bet at least 1/3 of the people attending the race in NY will be social butterflies who could care less about racing and more about being seen at the event. I live in NJ so it makes sense for me to attend. But given a choice, I'd probably rather go to Austin. Or Montreal.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Just the general layout. What's challenging for bikes is fairly "meh" for cars. Kind of like the way Barcelona is the most middle-of-the-road circuit in terms of car setup.

Bikes are nice to watch in flowing circuits like Assen or Zandvoort. F1 used to be also. Now ... with the exception of Suzuka (another exceptional bike track), F1 is only nice if long straights are present. Preferably leading to tight corners or hairpins, Tilke style (in short ... Start-Stop-Start-Stop tracks)

 

[cuco33]

Why is NY being listed for 2013?! The GP will be in NJ

As usual... NJ gets brushed to the side. NY Giants, NY Jets, NY Red Bulls... all play in NEW JERSEY

Still... I expect this lol. Even made a joke about how it might be called the NY GP

I live about 20min from there and can't wait. Never saw F1 in person and I'm so stoked for this!!!

 

[PeterJB]

It looks good, though I can picture crashes happening at the top of the hill and cars rolling down it.

 

[Northstar]

On top of Australia, Brazil, and Canada already broadcast at reasonable hours. (Malaysia and Japan are pushing it, but doable for some people once they start following the sport I suppose)

Australia is on at 1AM, while not 4:30AM odd it's still not exactly a noon race.

On the basic cable for where I live speed is offered. Now Versus is a premium channel where I come from.

I think both channels are part of my basic cable package.

Sorry, I was just going by what the TV services here provide and figured it was the same everywhere.

Guess that's what I get for assuming.

Still though, you got the point I was trying to make, that's mostly what matters.

 

[F1 fan]

Is Bernie actually aware that there are other circuit designers other than Tilke? This design looks to be one of his best though.

Well when you develop a successful partnership with someone who has a track record for getting a job done, why change that? As far as I'm aware, there are only two FIA Approved "circuit architecture" companies. The biggest of which is Tilke's.

Indeed. The entire section from the bridge to the hairpin is going to be absolute bonkers. In fact, this may well be the most bonkers circuit since AVUS.

Sounding pretty good. The news on this circuit gets more exciting every day.

I'll be honest and say I'm not familiar with the TV deals in other countries outside the US and England

It never fails to amaze or infuriate me, how many people refer to the uk as "England". I can name every American state and most capitals when quizzed, but you refer to the UK as "England"?

I know you're not the only person to do this, but this is a serious gear grinder for me. The worst culprits are English people though. Not all, but a select few. [/off topic]

Right. So perhaps the goal for having two races in the US, is to have more races that normal, non-dedicated, potential-fans can actually watch. On top of Australia, Brazil, and Canada already broadcast at reasonable hours. (Malaysia and Japan are pushing it, but doable for some people once they start following the sport I suppose)

I know that in the uk, more than half the races are on at a reasonable time, but I was in Toronto for every single race of the season up to and including Spa. I didn't miss a single practice session, qualifying or even so much as a racing lap. Point being that if they can attract enough fans, maybe they'll also attract a lot of hardcore fans too who will stay up all night to watch a practice session.

Plus you can just record it... That technology has been available for longer than I've been alive.

I haven't missed a single Grand Prix since I started watching around the age of 3 or 4(either 1990 or 1991). And I haven't missed a live race broadcast since I turned 14.

 

[Northstar]

It never fails to amaze or infuriate me, how many people refer to the uk as "England". I can name every American state and most capitals when quizzed, but you refer to the UK as "England"?

I know you're not the only person to do this, but this is a serious gear grinder for me. The worst culprits are English people though. Not all, but a select few. [/off topic]

I was referencing England specifically, I have no clue if the BBC is all of the UK or just England. I really didn't want to say UK than find out BBC is only in England.

 

[F1 fan]

I was referencing England specifically, I have no clue if the BBC is all of the UK or just England. I really didn't want to say UK than find out BBC is only in England.

Well it stands for "British Broadcast Corporation". And is funded by anyone in the United Kingdom who has a TV, whether they watch anything on it or not.

 

[Alex.]

Well when you develop a successful partnership with someone who has a track record for getting a job done, why change that?

In my opinion, none of the world greats are made by Tilke. Suzuka, Silverstone, Monza, Spa(much worse since late 90's), Albert Park, as well as U.S. circuits like Roads America and Atlanta, VIR, and if we continue talking outside F1 just look at Portimao. All of these absolutely hammer pretty much any Tilkedrome (we'll see how India pans out this week).

 

[F1 fan]

In my opinion, none of the world greats are made by Tilke. Suzuka, Silverstone, Monza, Spa(much worse since late 90's), Albert Park, as well as U.S. circuits like Roads America and Atlanta, VIR, and if we continue talking outside F1 just look at Portimao. All of these absolutely hammer pretty much any Tilkedrome (we'll see how India pans out this week).

It's not just the circuit design his company is responsible for. While I agree that the worlds greatest circuits were not designed by him, there is much more to a Grand Prix than just designing a circuit. Plus his designs are hampered by regulations. I doubt anyone could design a better circuit from scratch and deliver it on time, meeting all regulations. Like him or loathe him, his company gets the job done.

Edit: The Seinfeld supergeek in me is trying to figure out which episode your avatar pic is from. At a guess, I'd say when George was trying to coach the Yankee player and made some derogatory comment about another team winning "3 games...".

Swing or a miss?

 

[cuco33]

One thing's for sure... this F1 NJ course is all over the media, even if slightly, and it's stirring up a LOT of buzz. I've had folks who aren't into motorsports talking about it, especially to me who they know I'm big into it all. One guy, adamantly US sports fan and NOT a car/motorsports guy at all was telling me his AM sports station was talking it up and how he was impressed F1 cars can sometimes get up to 200mph. Said 'I once drove 80mph and went holy smokes I'm going fast! I can't believe something is going to be close to 200mph in those NJ streets!' and now he wants to come watch it

 

[Dennisch]

$50 million sanctioning fee every year for ten years.

This is the only reason why the Netherlands don't have a GP on Zandvoort anymore. Nothing more, nothing less. Our country is just to small to get people together for half a billion dollar.