The General Anime Thread...

[Roger the Horse]

@Kent, little girls are creepy?

Most of the people I know in real life who are fans of Madoka are women, and the men I know who like it in general are open minded folks who gave something girly looking a chance upon hearing that it has as absolutely amazing story. (Or in some cases not so open minded guys who were forced to watch it and decided that actually, despite appearances, it's just really good.) Nobody found the fact that the characters were little girls creepy, even if they found other things about the show ／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ to be so.

Keep in mind that I understand how someone might find rather a lot of anime creepy. I know this because I find some of them creepy. Really creepy. But those are generally either pervy fanservice trite (you know the kind) or moe overloaded high school comedies that entirely missed the point of Azumanga Daioh and tried to appeal to Kimura, rather than mock him, if you get what I'm saying. (The problem is that this is about half the anime produced these days.)

Now, as someone who has seen a lot of anime, I've learnt that sometimes, if you want a good story, you have to put up with things like this that you really don't like. The treatment of Mikuru in Haruhi Suzumiya was actually kind of disturbing for me to watch, and as a result I liked that show way less than I would have otherwise; but it didn't actually go so far as to drive me to disliking the show, which was fortunate as the movie which follows the series is just about perfect.

 

[DK]

I can't believe no-one's mentioned this in TGAT, but, last November, Hideaki Anno made a short film called "Peaceful Times"...and it features storyboards which might be from Eva 4.0.

 

[Kent]

@Kent, little girls are creepy?

Most of the people I know in real life who are fans of Madoka are women, and the men I know who like it in general are open minded folks who gave something girly looking a chance upon hearing that it has as absolutely amazing story. (Or in some cases not so open minded guys who were forced to watch it and decided that actually, despite appearances, it's just really good.) Nobody found the fact that the characters were little girls creepy, even if they found other things about the show ／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ to be so.

Keep in mind that I understand how someone might find rather a lot of anime creepy. I know this because I find some of them creepy. Really creepy. But those are generally either pervy fanservice trite (you know the kind) or moe overloaded high school comedies that entirely missed the point of Azumanga Daioh and tried to appeal to Kimura, rather than mock him, if you get what I'm saying. (The problem is that this is about half the anime produced these days.)

Now, as someone who has seen a lot of anime, I've learnt that sometimes, if you want a good story, you have to put up with things like this that you really don't like. The treatment of Mikuru in Haruhi Suzumiya was actually kind of disturbing for me to watch, and as a result I liked that show way less than I would have otherwise; but it didn't actually go so far as to drive me to disliking the show, which was fortunate as the movie which follows the series is just about perfect.

Take my words out of context if you like.

Just the same I'll take your words out of context and point out how much you love an anime where 30 seconds into the opening sequence you see a 6y/o girl in here panties with garters and within another 15 seconds you see implied full nudity.

And so you want to make me into the weird one for feeling like that's creepy?



@ 27 seconds and 45 seconds. Really? :unamused:
Didn't even finish the opening.

 

[Roger the Horse]

When somebody linked me to that opening out of context, I was similarly unamused, however, after being pestered into watching the show by pretty much everyone imaginable, I can say that the opening is not creepy when in context. Seriously. The opening is intentionally as far removed from the series as it's possible to get, and using it to judge anything about the rest of the series is like playing Half Life and then using that to form your opinion on Forza Horizon. Utterly pointless.

 

[AOS-]

This discussion that regards judging off the face of anime is why I like Madoka so much; those who get turned away are missing out. 👍

 

[DeathSmiles]

Loving Kill la Kill. Literally just discovered it yesterday. Watched all 13 eps that were out back to back. Need....more. I'm a stan for the director's work.

 

[Kent]

When somebody linked me to that opening out of context, I was similarly unamused, however, after being pestered into watching the show by pretty much everyone imaginable, I can say that the opening is not creepy when in context. Seriously. The opening is intentionally as far removed from the series as it's possible to get, and using it to judge anything about the rest of the series is like playing Half Life and then using that to form your opinion on Forza Horizon. Utterly pointless.

Whatever you say bud.

Just do me a favor and don't take my words out of context.
Likewise, it might be a good idea to really look at what you're saying I'm out of context about... I said Madoka played the little girls card in a creepy way then showed the opening they use for every show (pointing out totally inappropriate imagery). Was I really out of context or is it just that you aren't bothered by it?
My video link and comments were perfectly related to one another and show exactly why I think the show is creepy (for lack of a better or more offensive term). I have no doubt that if I watched the show I'd be able to find many other examples of similar imagery throughout but I don't know the show so I can't provide those examples.

Sorry if my criticisms of the show offend you, it's not meant to be that way.
Fact is, I'm just not interested in shows (no matter how good the story) where female children are constantly portrayed wearing mini-skirts just short of showing panties and thigh high hoes- it's offensive to me.

 

[jacnob]

Loving Kill la Kill. Literally just discovered it yesterday. Watched all 13 eps that were out back to back. Need....more. I'm a stan for the director's work.

KLK is probably my favorite anime of last/this year (although I really only jumped onboard last spring)

 

[Imari]

As much as I hate to this in the GAT...
Any anime predominately featuring little girls is going to struggle for a fan base.
Plain and simple, for most of us it's creepy.

It's not so much the little girls thing. Grave of the Fireflies has little girls as the protagonists and isn't creepy. Well, it is but in a different way.

It's the sexualised magical girl thing that does it. Any show with significant fan service will have trouble gaining traction. Intentionally skimpy costumes to the point of impracticality, panty shots, risque positioning are all death to a "normal" western audience.

As far as nudity goes, random non-sexual nudity is far less of a taboo in Japan than in Western countries. Does mean that it isn't a problem as far as these shows gaining popularity with their intended audiences over here though.

 

[Kent]

It's not so much the little girls thing. Grave of the Fireflies has little girls as the protagonists and isn't creepy. Well, it is but in a different way.

It's the sexualised magical girl thing that does it. Any show with significant fan service will have trouble gaining traction. Intentionally skimpy costumes to the point of impracticality, panty shots, risque positioning are all death to a "normal" western audience.

As far as nudity goes, random non-sexual nudity is far less of a taboo in Japan than in Western countries. Does mean that it isn't a problem as far as these shows gaining popularity with their intended audiences over here though.

Well at least one person here understands what I've been trying to say about Madoka and other similar shows. 👍
Albeit, said in a much better way.

 

[Roger the Horse]

Whatever @Kent. Your criticisms are honestly correct when applied to a lot of recent anime, I just feel they're misplaced when applied to Madoka, although I can see how someone who hasn't seen the show may be led to such conclusions.

Except there isn't a sexualised magical girl thing in Madoka... @Imari

I think ultimately there are two things which keep people in the west from flocking to watch Madoka. One is a lack of large scale promotion from a major distributor that a Hollywood film or a BBC television series will get. The other is the girl show ghetto, which is what I by and large believe is what sometimes leads to splits in the anime fandom over Madoka.

----------------------------------------------------

I don't really like the direction Kill La Kill is going in. I might be proved wrong, but I just don't find the new villain they've suddenly shoved in as interesting as the previous villains, and I think it's losing that satirical bite that I enjoyed about the first few episodes. I think the fight scenes kind of reached a peak in awesomeness that they're now kind of struggling to top, and the newer episodes keep leaving me disappointed.

----------------------------------------------------

Bringing these two things together, I think sexualisation in anime is an interesting topic. Personally I feel it's gone far, far too far in recent years. Kill La Kill was initially interesting to me in that I felt it did a good job of exploring and pointing out some of these issues, although I think recently it's started to fall into the trap of simply conforming to them, which honestly hasn't left me best pleased. I used to just have a rule that I wouldn't watch anything where the sexualisation went beyond the levels that made me feel uncomfortable while watching Haruhi, but more recently I have remembered that it's important to judge a work as a whole, and not let individual factors distract one's overall judgement. So, while some series may have a degree of sexulisation that makes me feel uncomfortable, I now try to only let that impact my view of the series negatively if I feel it effects the rest of the show negatively, by making it come off as sexist or overly pandering to the wrong crowd, so to speak.

 

[Imari]

Except there isn't a sexualised magical girl thing in Madoka... @Imari

You what?

I mean, the intro Kent posted was a pretty good example. No, they don't have massive mammaries (well, Mami...), but that's not a requirement for sexualisation. On the whole, Madoka is pretty restrained about it's sexuality in comparison to other shows of it's type, but it doesn't mean that it's not sexualised at all.

The whole magical girl genre is a weird mix of empowering females and pandering to male fantasies. I can easily see how people find it creepy. You could have the same story and characters but with "normal" school uniforms and magical outfits, and it'd be just as good but it would miss one key demographic.


Me, I like Madoka and I'm not really that worried what other people think. But I wouldn't give Madoka to my grandmother to watch because she'd find it uncomfortable at best, although I'd happily give her something like Howl's Moving Castle or Arrietty.

Madoka would have a really tough time being mainstream, in part because of the way that it's chosen to dress it's characters.

 

[AOS-]

^ That's where judging a book by its cover doesn't do a good job and it is damn laughable if people can still be that hell-bent on not being the slightest bit curious why individuals who are not magical-girl fans enjoyed it.

@Roger the Horse, Kill ala Kill is moving slow, but this direction they're taking is appropriate for what Satsuki had schemed based on the first half of the season.

I didn't pick up any potential satire from the beginning so I'm now curious to hear what you saw out of it.

 

[kennylmao]

Except there isn't a sexualised magical girl thing in Madoka... @Imari

The (sort of) ecchi scenes in the opening which kent spoke of? I guess it's some sort of symbolism which represents transforming into a magical girl,
but to the average Western viewer it's "omg!!! naked cartoon!!! child pornography!!! Japan is weird!!!".
You get what I mean.

EDIT:Lol, I am slow.

Btw, what is your last name supposed to be @Imari? Imari who?

 

[Roger the Horse]

Meh, maybe it's just that I've spent my life surrounded by eccentric arty types who don't jump to conclusions about things and see symbolism for what it is. I don't tend to find nudity in itself to be sexualised, while I can observe something as being sexualised about an image of a person who is fully clothed because of the context in which it is presented. Hell, even someone's voice can be sexual, I mean, just listen to this:



Yeah...

Wait...

Where was I.

Yeah.

 

[Kent]

Well at least we are talking about it. 👍
However, I find it funny that because I don't like magical girl and don't particularly care to give Madoka a try I'm being written off as some casual western dummy (when in reality I've been watching anime for probably 20+ years now, not including the anime I watched as a kid and didn't think of as anime). Heck, I posted the first post of this thread over ten years ago. Every week I read manga (don't really watch anime any more) and over the years I've seen countless series.

Don't write me off as a fan or connoisseur simply because I don't like the magical girl genre, I don't do that to you all when we disagree about a series I like, please try to show myself and others the same courtesy.

 

[TheCorvette]

As much as I hate to this in the GAT...
Any anime predominately featuring little girls is going to struggle for a fan base.
Plain and simple, for most of us it's creepy.

Along with anything that's weird. To us, seeing stuff like this is normal.

To normal people, it's a huge "WTF?"

The anime that most easily can get a fanbase outside of the anime community are the toyetic kids shows, the battle series (Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, Fairy Tail, Reborn!, etc.), and the stuff that tell a "mature" story such as Cowboy Bebop and Ghost in the Shell and also look mature on the outside (We know Madoka is mature, but to an outsider, this wrongly tells them it's a little girls magical girl show).

 

[Kent]

We know Madoka is mature, but to an outsider, this wrongly tells them it's a little girls magical girl show

I think that is often part of the problem... Mixing children with adult themes is a common taboo and when it's done using costumes I'd love to see on a grown woman it can easily create a the wrong impression.
Elfen Lied would probably be another great example of children being used with adult themes.

That said, mature themes or not, I'm pretty sure Madoka is a magic girl show isn't it? I mean, it might not be for children but it certainly features a story dominated by young girls with magical powers who transform into costumes. I mean, it's no sailor moon but the basic premise of magic girl still applies from what I can tell.
Or is that wrong?

 

[TheCorvette]

It's a late-night magical girl show that deconstructs the magical girl genre.

 

[Roger the Horse]

No, that still got a huge WTF from me, mainly for the swimsuit scene.

Madoka has the pretence of being a magical girl show, but ultimately it isn't. I think of it more as a sci-fi show. People say it's a deconstruction, but it isn't really. It more just does its own thing. It usually attracts more comparison to works of classical literature and mythology, and Terry Gilliam's animations, than to other magical girl shows, and magical girl fans generally seem to dislike it for some reason, at least as far as I have seen.

As for the issue of the costumes, I personally struggle to see what's so different about them to many costumes I see used in Disney films, particularly some of the recent ones with all those fairies.

 

[TheCorvette]

Guess someone needs to see more weird anime.

 

[Imari]

Btw, what is your last name supposed to be @Imari? Imari who?

Heh.

So I was trying to think of a name for my new female main on WoW when they opened Oceanic servers. I wanted something vaguely Japanese-ish but not obviously recognisable. I tooled around with a few things, and ended up with Imari. I couldn't think of any other characters called Imari, and it sounded about right so I went with it.

Turns out a couple of weeks beforehand I had watched Bible Black, so I think I know where the influence came from, even if I didn't notice it consciously.

I don't reference it ever unless people ask, I either use Maka or Ninja Nia as my avatars. Very few people actually ask.


@Roger the Horse I'm aware that no part of Madoka plot or characterisation revolves around sexualisation (bar the arguable girl-on-girl love thing, but you really have to read pretty deep to get anywhere on that one). The argument could be made that the costumes are simply in the "fairy" magical style, and that would be totally reasonable.

I guess, ever since the whole K-ON experience I'm a bit cynical that the companies don't explicitly aim at least portions of their character design at the "hikikomori with more money than sense" consumer, because there seems to be quite a lot of them. And I suspect in the grand scheme of things they're a bit like whales in F2P gaming, a disproportionate amount of the income comes from that small segment of consumers.

Bar a few things like the nudity, which turns up to a far greater extent in other shows, Madoka is pretty tame. I'd buy that it's not intentionally or explicitly sexualised, but it remains that some parts are going to be unacceptable to a generic Western audience.

I'd agree with the assessment that it's at heart not a magical girl show, but those trappings are what an uniformed public will judge it on.


As a somewhat parallel example, I was teaching kids in Japan when Death Note was all the rage. It was really popular with (late) primary school kids, and I never heard of a parent or adult even blinking about whether it was appropriate. It was just a show. I took some Death Note toys back to some cousins in NZ, and when the parents asked me what sort of show it was and I told them...man, if looks could have killed. Not acceptable in NZ, as it turns out.

A lot of stuff that's acceptable in Japanese culture still is just nowhere near in Western culture.

 

[LamborghiniSV]

What "Otaku" Really Means:

Otaku(お宅) is the honorific form of Taku(宅), which means residence or home. As in "Hello, this is the Smith residence(お宅)."
In the context of anime and manga, an Otaku is someone so obsessed with their hobby that they never leave their home. They have no social life. They do not work.

The word is not interchangeable with 'nerd' or 'geek,' which has come to use in a no longer injurious way. Otaku, in Japan, is still an insult. As recently as 2008, Otaku was still seen by non-anime fans as Hikikomori (引き籠もり), extreme isolationists and someone potentially dangerous. The reclusive misanthropists were cracked down on by the police and searched for weapons because they are listed as suspicious characters.

You may think that Otaku is something to be proud of, and someday through the constant evolving nature of language, it may be. But if you come across a Japanese anime fan and call them 'Otaku' or call yourself 'Otaku' in their presence, you are most likely sending a very different idea to them than what you intended.

Like all foreign words, be sure you know the meaning before you decide to use it.

Source: [LINK]

 

[Techy]

^
I know a couple of people who actually take otaku as self-pride in that they have active support in anime.

 

[AOS-]

and someone potentially dangerous.

What a terrible presumption to make of people. People need to stop being so damn scared and educate and enlighten themselves before jumping to such extreme conclusions.

 

[nk4e]

It's not so much the little girls thing. Grave of the Fireflies has little girls as the protagonists and isn't creepy. Well, it is but in a different way.

It's the sexualised magical girl thing that does it. Any show with significant fan service will have trouble gaining traction. Intentionally skimpy costumes to the point of impracticality, panty shots, risque positioning are all death to a "normal" western audience.

As far as nudity goes, random non-sexual nudity is far less of a taboo in Japan than in Western countries. Does mean that it isn't a problem as far as these shows gaining popularity with their intended audiences over here though.

Why pick Grave of the Fireflies since it really didn't have any big female protagonists like Madoka? Gunslinger Girl would of been a better choice (IMO). Their cases were logical at most. Fan Service a Death blow to Normal Western Audience? They have been expose to Bleach, Naruto, DBZ,Hellsing, and FMA for the past decade.Don't forget that there are some good fan service in those series. Naoki Urusarwa's Monster probably had a "Normal" female protagonist than GunSlinger Girl. How could you explain the entire plot to attract more people?

 

[Imari]

Why pick Grave of the Fireflies since it really didn't have any big female protagonists like Madoka?

It was the most unsexy film I could think of with a young female in a leading role. Also, I misremembered Seita as female.

It's been a while since I watched that movie and I have absolutely no intention of watching it again. Amazing but horrific.

What a terrible presumption to make of people. People need to stop being so damn scared and educate and enlighten themselves before jumping to such extreme conclusions.

Hikikomori are seen as basically mentally unstable. Which is a bit rough, but not terribly far from the mark. Otaku are one step away from. Dangerous is possibly not the right word, but then again groping on trains is a serious problem in Japan so if you're a girl maybe it's not totally unfounded either.

The main point is that they're people who are expected not to act totally rationally, which makes them a bit scary. They're the Japanese equivalent of the American loner kids that you wonder if they'll end up shooting up a school one day.

This is how big the difference is between the American and Japanese usage of the word.

 

[Kent]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCoQFjAA&url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otaku&ei=dO7YUvGdCuzlsATcioDwBQ&usg=AFQjCNH7vtmJjTcv-A-mv5bRIYnslfFmpw (btw, not that wikipedia is more commonly browsed or edited by knowledgeable people than deviant art is)

I take wiki over the GAT reply that claims Otaku is a name for people just short of mentally unbalanced.

10 years ago Otaku was associated with a "comic book nerd."

To think that so many of you (rhetorical), especially the hard core anime fans, think of Otaku as a word the Japanese use to mean mentally unbalanced to the point of killing is... well...

 

[Imari]

To think that so many of you (rhetorical), especially the hard core anime fans, think of Otaku as a word the Japanese use to mean mentally unbalanced to the point of killing is... well...

No, that's the perception, the same way that kids in trench coats are seen as potential killers. It's not necessarily true, it's something that has been perpetrated by a few events, media, and the group's natural inwardness hasn't helped.

The reality is that most of them wouldn't say boo to a goose. But there's a difference between how a stereotypical member of society views these fringe groups and how they actually behave.

Take motorcycle gangs as an example. I've met probably half a dozen gang members and they were all pretty nice guys, but they're portrayed as violent psychopaths who would set your house on fire and rape you as soon as look at you. At least in Australia.


There's also somewhat of a difference between a group trying to repurpose a word by using it on themselves. The fact that they find it necessary to do so probably means that it was fairly derogatory to start with. There's a big difference between a bunch of black guys calling each other n:censored:r, and a white slave owner a hundred years ago talking about his n:censored:rs.

Likewise, there's a difference between Japanese (and American) otaku using it to refer to themselves, and Joe Bloggs using it to refer to the line of dorks outside some store waiting to shake hands with a junior idol. One is a term with nearly no loaded meanings, the other is essentially a euphemism for "closet pedophile rapist".


If you, as a foreigner, tell random Japanese person that you're an "otaku" with no other context, they will give you a very funny look. Give it another ten or twenty years and it'll probably have a lot of the negativity stripped away from it. But it's not there yet.

 

[TheCorvette]

Highly doubtful a lot of the negativity will be stripped away, especially when otaku have remained unchanged. Watch Otaku no Video, an OVA from 1991 which has a couple live-action interviews with actual otaku mixed in there, and you'll notice the otaku of today aren't that much different from the otaku of yesteryear.