The GT Sport Epic Whining and Crying Thread

[super_gt]

And yet you still haven't enlightened me to what you think my hidden agenda is?

You buy their game,PD stay afloat and you will be able to whining and crying for years,which gives you tremendous pleasure.

 

[Scaff]

I feel like you don't understand the structure of SCE. It includes other studios, so when you said backing of all, I assumed you meant PD had coding help from other studios.

I understand perfectly well, you just need to stop making assumptions.

You also don;t seem to understand that SCE board is not a developer. PD won't get help from those people. There's a specific team that helps SCE studios with hardware and software and its called ICE.

Quote me saying the board are developers.

Furthermore, you also think being on this board is all win and you have no extra work to do. Kaz will be working very closely on the development of PS hardware being on that board.

Didn't say that at all, it does however bring benefits.

Now stop claiming that I have said things I haven't, it's really not a good idea.

Questionable.

Then you will have no problems explaining why.

I also notice, but am not surprised, that rather than answer any questions you have simply replied 'you but - insert incorrect assumption'.

 

[Imari]

Those outsourcing artists are employees as well for the duration of their contract. So yes T10 does have 450 employees.

OK, but if you're using that broad a brush to label an "employee" then it kind of negates any bite from the comparison. Polyphony has 200+ full time employees who work at least 40 hours a week for four years. T10 has 450 people that worked on the project for somewhere between a week and two years.

Who actually put more man hours into their project? Because that's essentially the useful information in what we're talking about. The actual people that did the work doesn't matter, the only meaningful claim would be that Polyphony has less man hours available than their competitors. An impossible claim with the evidence you're putting forward, when you're counting the guy who puts in ten hours and the guy who puts in six thousand hours as somehow directly equivalent.

Meanwhile T10 hires other companies (in India and Vietnam as they are cheap) to do stuff like car modelling. These companies are now working for T10 under a contract and treated as employees of T10 (or MS). They can not be selling their creations to other companies.

Note the word hires, contract, employee and exclusivity (coming from the contract).

The company I work for manufactures a product which is sold directly to a single customer, with their name and brand on it. They market and sell it as their own. Yet I work for MY company, not theirs. My paychecks have the same name on them. If I have HR problems or industrial relations problems, the same company is responsible. It's not the contractors. The contractors can hire me to do work through my company, but I do not work for them. On the other hand, it's still my name on the design docs of anything I designed, as that's MY profession and part of my job is being properly credited for my work.

If you'd like to provide any evidence that the employees of GlassEgg or any other T10 contractors are temporarily terminated from their positions and hired by T10, rather than the normal process of one company contracting another to do work which is then accomplished by whichever employees the contractee has available, then by all means please share it.

 

[PhaedrusSocrate]

Guys, GT6mebe, stop feeding the trols... and i dont mean any in particular. Ofc, i have not seen any trols in this thread for decades... buuuut, just saying.

There is no winners or winning here with thinking that these arguments even metter.

So, PD has x amount of employees, T10 x amount - and they are putting y amounts of work hours.

To me (to me) it's whatever because it is what those companies achieve in the end with their efforts. Not even that, but more precisely "does that suit me/you?"...

You guys have fun, its a free forum, and im aware that i am also beneficiary of said freedom so i dont mean anything but also share my perspective on this - by whining and crying like a good little user of this thread.

So, T10 or SMS's employees are 20.000 times more efficient then PD's. Wonderfull, that is great to know.

I'll just play all those game that result in product that is worth my time and money - regardles of their average workload efficiency.

Would GTS be a better game if PD had more interest in quantity then in quality? Maybe to you it would, not to me.

 

[marcvic]

Unless there are links to interviews or conclusive evidence of each of these company's staff totals, there is just no point arguing about this - or making a claim that PD is inefficient.

And it really boils down to how someone describes inefficiency, because you could argue from all sides that the others are inefficient.

 

[ImaRobot]

Unless there are links to interviews or conclusive evidence of each of these company's staff totals, there is just no point arguing about this - or making a claim that PD is inefficient.

Dont know where the interview is but we've already posted, plenty of times, that PD had stated they are at 200+. Same with T10s count by an interview from the staff here at GTP, having 150~ full time staff with outsource contacting likely bringing it up to 300~ total as per their wiki page. We aren't just going off made up numbers.

And it really boils down to how someone describes inefficiency, because you could argue from all sides that the others are inefficient

Well then go for it. If you're going to join the discussion, join the discussion.

 

[lancia delta hf]

I


Those outsourcing artists are employees as well for the duration of their contract. So yes T10 does have 450 employees.

You don't know how this works do you? T10 are not responsible for those people they've outsourced from, they are not employees of T10. If Kaz took a dump in the pooper down at PDI HQ and blocked the toilet then called in a plumber, do they now have one extra employee? No they don't. So this insistence that T10 have 450 employees just to validate your claim that PD is small is bordering on the ridiculous,

Oh and I guess empire state building is small too right? Just because there's a bigger scraper.

Guys, GT6mebe, stop feeding the trols... and i dont mean any in particular. Ofc, i have not seen any trols in this thread for decades... buuuut, just saying.

.

Ironic as the only posts that look like trolling are coming from yourself.

 

[PhaedrusSocrate]

No one is inefficient unless they have no clue what they want, what their goals are.

And they all have quite well defined and quite unique goals (ofc.,as unique as you can within relatively narow genre like racing).

Kunos, SMS, T10, PD - They quite clearly know what are they shooting for. Kaz for example is shooting old GT in the head, because that is what makes him happy. How did he achieve that level of creative independence and freedom (and a seat at SCEE board )? By making incredibly succesful games! And what ever vision of GT makes him happiest, I will roll with it - why? Am i blind Kaz fanboy, or has he earned my trust by making best GT's he can make, with passion and chatacter

Im quite happy with the amount of his confidence and happines when he says "burn the old GT to the ground!" That is exciting, shows that he really feels for GTS, and he has earned from me that all I want is to follow his passion.

For everything else, for everything that his vision fails... Well I have Assetto Corsa, pCARS, Forza etc. for that, clearly:tup:

 

[marcvic]

Dont know where the interview is but we've already posted, plenty of times, that PD had stated they are at 200+. Same with T10s count by an interview from the staff here at GTP, having 150~ full time staff with outsource contacting likely bringing it up to 300~ total as per their wiki page. We aren't just going off made up numbers.

I've always been very hesitant to use wiki as a source. @GT6mebe found a very good source that happened to be out-dated (the company website), and that is still a teasing point being used against him. Nevertheless, we know PD's numbers, because we have the best source possible for that.

But I would love to see the interview where Greenwalt talks about it 👍 I've tried searching, but didn't find it. Same with all of the other devs.

Well then go for it. If you're going to join the discussion, join the discussion.

Unless there is evidence on the level of the quotes that came from Kaz's interview, I have no interest. And besides, there are too many variables with this argument. The man-hours debate really only is helpful if we know exactly how many hours were put into each car and by who, as far at T10 v. the outsourced company (which I don't think we'll get our hands on those contracts). Then there is the personal preference as to where each company spent those man hours - whether someone prefers more cars/tracks v. better quality cars/tracks v. customizaiton v. dynamic settings etc. Also, past sales performance could come into play when discussing this topic. There is just way too much to consider for us not to be compensated for the level of analysis required to come to a conclusion.

So "PD is inefficient" is really just an opinion at this point - which is OK.

 

[ImaRobot]

I've always been very hesitant to use wiki as a source. @GT6mebe found a very good source that happened to be out-dated (the company website), and that is still a teasing point being used against him. Nevertheless, we know PD's numbers, because we have the best source possible for that.

Yeah, and that was his fault for using information from an article that is over 7 years old, not the website he took it from. We also know what T10 has stated about it's staff, because we also have the best possible source for that. Wiki has the same information about PD's staffing size as what's been said in videos and the interview here at GTP. So far so good, so it seems valid enough to use it as a source. That and T10 also falls in line with what @Scaff has mentioned about the interview done here with T10, that stated that they really have somewhere in the low hundred of full time staff, with the rest being staff used from other companies for outsourcing. I can not locate it, but I'm sure one of the staff would be able to do better than I can in that regard.

Unless there is evidence on the level of the quotes that came from Kaz's interview, I have no interest

Then don't make such claims if you're not interested in that part of the discussion. You spoke on it, so you seemed interested. If it was just to come in and white-knight PD, than you're not really adding anything other than "oh yeah!? Well other games don't do X."

And besides, there are too many variables with this argument.

Than it's odd to say

because you could argue from all sides that the others are inefficient.

Didn't seem like there was that many variables when you first stated it. That makes it sounds like it would have been easier as you have info from "all sides" of others inefficiency.

Then there is the personal preference as to where each company spent those man hours - whether someone prefers more cars/tracks v. better quality cars/tracks v. customizaiton v. dynamic settings etc.

It's not personal preference. If one company is doing literally all of those things and more, and one isn't, in the same amount of time than it's easy to make that comparison. Literally the only one that they have a small advantage over, Lets say T10, is the slight better modeling on aspects of vehicles.

Also, past sales performance could come into play when discussing this topic.

Where and how?

There is just way too much to consider for us not to be compensated for the level of analysis required to come to a conclusion.

Than don't come in and say you can "argue from all sides" of the competitions inefficiency.

So "PD is inefficient" is really just an opinion at this point - which is OK.

Yup. They're definitely inefficient. Which is not very hard to see that it is nothing other than an opinion.

 

[marcvic]

If it was just to come in and white-knight PD

 

[ImaRobot]

This is a bit of a sad reply, considering you've been so good at keeping a discussion going before. You came in making a claim that we can argue so much about everything that others are doing that is inefficient, yet when questioned you back down saying that theres to many variables so you can't. So in turn you just made it look exactly like white-knighting.

 

[marcvic]

We also know what T10 has stated about it's staff, because we also have the best possible source for that. Wiki has the same information about PD's staffing size as what's been said in videos and the interview here at GTP

I'd really like to see these interviews, just to get more perspective.

Regarding the 100-300 range that is listed on wiki for T10, I don't think that takes the outsourced help into consideration. In order for a person to be considered an employee, they have to be on the company's payroll, and the company pays payroll taxes on them. If that is not the case, then the info on the wiki page takes a huge hit on credibility, because those outsourced contractors should never be mentioned in an employee count. Not to mention that that the actual range is more than the minimum figure (200 range, minimum is 100) <--- when did they have 100? 150? 200? 300?

We'd need enough concrete evidence of each company's staff before there can even be a debate about efficiency.

Regarding my status in PD's stable of elite trusted white knights, I thought I took a pretty non-committal approach when I mentioned that "PD is inefficient" is an opinion because of insufficient evidence. That comment, at this point, has no basis.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I'd really like to see these interviews, just to get more perspective.

Regarding the 100-300 range that is listed on wiki for T10, I don't think that takes the outsourced help into consideration. In order for a person to be considered an employee, they have to be on the company's payroll, and the company pays payroll taxes on them. If that is not the case, then the info on the wiki page takes a huge hit on credibility, because those outsourced contractors should never be mentioned in an employee count. Not to mention that that the actual range is more than the minimum figure (200 range, minimum is 100) <--- when did they have 100? 150? 200? 300?

We'd need enough concrete evidence of each company's staff before there can even be a debate about efficiency.

Regarding my status in PD's stable of elite trusted white knights, I thought I took a pretty non-committal approach when I mentioned that "PD is inefficient" is an opinion because of insufficient evidence. That comment, at this point, has no basis.

You don't consider THREE main line Forza titles this generation to ONE somewhere between prologue and full game by PD to be something of a smoking gun?

 

[ImaRobot]

I'd really like to see these interviews, just to get more perspective.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/06...-steering-wheels-and-shifting-gears-ign-first
Dated: 6/28/2017

http://www.thedrive.com/watch-this/...-scenes-of-gran-turismo-at-polyphonys-offices
Dated: 6/13/2017

http://www.isrtv.com/gran-turismo-series/get-tour-polyphony-digitals-headquarters-kazunori-yamauchi/
Dated: 6/23/2017

As for the T10 interview, I'm hard pressed finding it, but I'm sure @Scaff or @SlipZtrEm will be able to locate it better than I can.

Regarding the 100-300 range that is listed on wiki for T10, I don't think that takes the outsourced help into consideration.

Why not? If we're to completely ignore what the staff has said here in that regard, I suppose we can make that claim, but we've heard otherwise about how many full time staff they have. I think it might take exactly that into consideration, but I feel what might be happening its covering the size of both T10, and Playground games, as they have all the Forza Horizon entries listed as well.

If that is not the case, then the info on the wiki page takes a huge hit on credibility, because those outsourced contractors should never be mentioned in an employee count.

Probably not, but we definitely know it lines up with PD's staff from what's been going around directly from them. However, we do know what was said to the staff here, as @Scaff has already mentioned that.

We'd need enough concrete evidence of each company before there can even be a debate about efficiency.

We have a good range of figures to go by. Size of the teams, output, development time, those are all things we have a good gauge over. Do we have 100% irrefutable evidence? No, but we do have information from reputable sources that have shown that what we're talking about might actually be the truth, rather than not.

Regarding my status in PD's stable of elite trusted white knights, I thought I took a pretty non-committal approach when I mentioned that "PD is inefficient" is an opinion because of insufficient evidence. That comment, at this point, has no basis.

It sure does have basis, because exactly what I wrote is exactly what you did. I'm not sure who other white knights are, as I'm only speaking to you on this matter, not other people. You took an approach to try to take the negative light away from the game you prefer. You added nothing to the subject, but pretty much pointed out how easy it would be to argue others inefficiency only to back pedal when questioned on it, to say that its not possible right now. If you originally didn't think it was actually possible(like you claimed originally) than you shouldn't have said we can "Argue it from all sides."

EDIT: Although this is way back to last generation, this quote can add some context on to how much they ramp up with full time staff compared to contractors and outsourcing

The story of Turn 10 is one of an amazing culture within Microsoft – a studio with a startup feel that began with a dream and now owns a blockbuster. But they still feel like a small, nimble team – they’re about 70 full-time employees, rising to 400 including contractors as the production effort rises during the game. In fact there is an amazing story behind the ecosystem of partners that Forza has helped to build.

https://blogs.microsoft.com/next/2011/09/16/forza-motorsport-pt1-turn-10-studios/

 

[GT6mebe]

This is where I got the 450 number. Already posted this ages ago so I don't see why some are acting like I never sourced the number

I understand perfectly well, you just need to stop making assumptions.

It really doesn't seem like it.

Quote me saying the board are developers.

Then what assistance did you have in mind? Financial? Thats handled by Yoshida.

Didn't say that at all, it does however bring benefits.

The benefits are being able to know the hardware and software environment in advance. The downside is you will have a lot more on your plate, to help develop or provide feedback on these tools. What else did you have in mind?

but if you're using that broad a brush to label an "employee

they are not employees of T10

You guys really don't know how outsourcing works do you? They are legally employees per contract whether you like it or not.

If Kaz took a dump in the pooper down at PDI HQ and blocked the toilet then called in a plumber,

Another poor analogy. Kaz is not hiring the plumber to do his work that he will later sell. Please try harder.

 

[ImaRobot]

It really doesn't seem like it.



Then what assistance did you have in mind? Financial? Thats handled by Yoshida.



The benefits are being able to know the hardware and software environment in advance. The downside is you will have a lot more on your plate, to help develop or provide feedback on these tools. What else did you have in mind?





You guys really don't know how outsourcing works do you? They are legally employees per contract whether you like it or not.



Another poor analogy. Kaz is not hiring the plumber to do his work that he will later sell. Please try harder.

Weird, the source for 400+ employees seem to be missing.

Ah I see you snuck it in with a ninja edit although I'm not entirely sure how a random facebook/reddit post is a source. Especially so when there's no backing to it. Not only that, but it's just as outdated, with no reference material as to where this number was acquired.

If I pay a contractor to come in and build my house, his work is not mine. I am in control of the creative direction that I'd want it to go, but he is very much his own company. I very well will own the property after, but I do not own him as an employee. I am not paying his benefits, medicare taxes, withholding his income tax or his SSI. He is under a contract to do work for me, that is it.

 

[Scaff]

This is where I got the 450 number. Already posted this ages ago so I don't see why some are acting like I never sourced the number

So your source is effectively hearsay.

It really doesn't seem like it.

That's because you keep making assumptions.

Then what assistance did you have in mind? Financial? Thats handled by Yoshida.

I've already outlined this, now how about you answer the actual questions you have been asked rather than this rather poor avoidance dance you have been doing.

How many other similar devs sit on SCEs board?

The benefits are being able to know the hardware and software environment in advance. The downside is you will have a lot more on your plate, to help develop or provide feedback on these tools. What else did you have in mind?

Why on earth are you making statements about things I have already stated?

Seriously you need to stop this nonsense.

The question you should be answering is what other devs have the degree of early access to hardware and software tools that this brings?

A question that you have avoided in favour of this utter bollocks line of avoidance.

Or maybe you don't think being among the first to gain access to these brings any advantage at all?

You guys really don't know how outsourcing works do you? They are legally employees per contract whether you like it or not.

Not always

I hire in contractors in a short term basis, they are legal short term employees. I also subcontract work out to other companies, those staff are not legal employees. My team also get subcontract work to do, they don't become legal employees of BMW or TGB or VWG, etc when that happens.

 

[marcvic]

You guys really don't know how outsourcing works do you? They are legally employees per contract whether you like it or not.

If the outsourced staff work for a company and T10 cuts a check to the outsourced company for the sum of their labor hours, then they are not employees of T10.

If T10 signs a work contract with a bunch of self-employed individuals to complete a certain job, gives the contractors control over how the work is completed, pays them for the completed work and then ends the engagement, than they are not employees of T10

If T10 seeks individuals one-by-one and signs an employment agreement with each one, controls the manner at which they complete the work and pays payroll taxes on each one, then they are legally employees of T10.

Control over the work and how the relationship is treated (employee v. independent contractor) would provide the information we need to determine whether the graphic design staff were actually employed by T10. From a tax standpoint, and without any other information, it would be in T10's best short-term interest to contract the work out, rather than hiring staff internally.

 

[GT6mebe]

So your source is effectively hearsay.

Not at all, but if you choose to believe that, here's a MS blog from 2011 again listing how they have 400 through outsourcing:

https://blogs.microsoft.com/next/2011/09/16/forza-motorsport-pt1-turn-10-studios/

I've already outlined this

Tell me then.

How many other similar devs sit on SCEs board?

I don't know.

Or maybe you don't think being among the first to gain access to these brings any advantage at all?

How about you actually read what I wrote, because I listed it clearly as a benefit. Meanwhile you continue to ignore the downside as it suits your agenda.

Not always

Well it is in T10's case and thats all that matters for this argument.

 

[ImaRobot]

This is where I got the 450 number. Already posted this ages ago so I don't see why some are acting like I never sourced the number

Here, let me go post on facebook really quick. The post will say "T10 only has 7 employees." Afterwards I'll come in here and post it as a source.

Not at all, but if you choose to believe that, here's a MS blog from 2011 again listing how they have 400 through outsourcing:

They rise as high as 400 through contractors. Yeah, so 330~ of that staff are not their employees. Its funny that you omit the actual part where they list the full time employees at 70.

 

[GT6mebe]

I see, now that you have lost the point of contention (number of employees), you are trying hard to shift the goal post to full time employees. Sorry, game development numbers don't work like that. Those 330 are employees at that time and will be credited in the game for their work.

 

[Scaff]

Not at all, but if you choose to believe that, here's a MS blog from 2011 again listing how they have 400 through outsourcing:

https://blogs.microsoft.com/next/2011/09/16/forza-motorsport-pt1-turn-10-studios/

So that's not 400 permanent employees as your first source suggested.

How long did these additional people work for so we can calculate an FTE value of staff for comparison?


If I subcontract 52 people for a week a piece that's the equivalent (Full Time Equivalent) of 1 full time person for a year. It's not the same as 52 people!

A point that seems utterly lost on you.

Tell me then.

My posts are all here for you to read.

I don't know.

Why am I not surprised.

How about you actually read what I wrote, because I listed it clearly as a benefit. Meanwhile you continue to ignore the downside as it suits your agenda.

I've read what you wrote, I've not disputed or disagreed with it at all, it simply has **** all to do with the question I asked.

What other racing sim devs have this kind of access (both positive and negative to make you happy).

Oh and you seem to still be short a few answers to questions you have been asked.

Well it is in T10's case and thats all that matters for this argument.

You have access to the contract that deals with this for T10 and have calculated the FTE details for comparison?

Please do share.

Not that it would matter, because those 400 have put out how many titles in the period PD with 200 have put out 1?

 

[McLaren]

@IanBell true?

I see, now that you have lost the point of contention (number of employees), you are trying hard to shift the goal post to full time employees. Sorry, game development numbers don't work like that. Those 330 are employees at that time and will be credited in the game for their work.

That's actually what you're doing because you don't know how outsourcing works despite numerous examples.

If Man A owns a company full of people who model cars, and Man B is a gaming developer who pays Man A a sum of money to model some cars, all those people under Man A are not suddenly employees of Man B. Man B is paying Man A for the work; it is up to Man A to distribute his pay into expenses for his employees and profit for himself.

 

[GT6mebe]

So that's not 400 permanent employees as your first source suggested.

Source never suggested permanent employees. For someone that accuses others of assuming you just did it yourself.

How long did these additional people work for so we can calculate an FTE value of staff for comparison?

Sure, make some numbers up. Doesn't change the fact T10 had 400 employees, while PD have 200.

What other racing sim devs have this kind of access (both positive and negative to make you happy).

Do T10 have it? If not just PD.

You have access to the contract that deals with this for T10 and have calculated the FTE details for comparison?

Don't need to. The point has always been about the number of employees. Goal shifting is not going to work, especially to fields that are not available to the public.

 

[PzR Slim]

Doesn't change the fact T10 had 400 employees, while PD have 200.

No matter how many times you repeat this, it is not going to make it true.

 

[Scaff]

Source never suggested permanent employees. For someone that accuses others of assuming you just did it yourself.

Which is why I decribed it as hearsay.

However as you trust them so much, remind us again how PD is small in that list?

Sure, make some numbers up. Doesn't change the fact T10 had 400 employees, while PD have 200.

I'm not making numbers up, I pointing out a rather basic and important point about how you manage contractors (hell how you manage staff numbers full stop).

Fact number one. We don't know if T10 did directly employ them or if a company was sub-contracted to do the work. Without a copy of the contracts its impossible to say, so stop suggesting otherwise

Fact number two. You can't simply compare subcontract or short term employees to full time staff on a one for one basis. As I have quite clearly stated above, if I sub-contact 52 people for a week, its the equivalent of 1 full time employee over the course of a year. That's not making numbers up, that's how it works when you subcontract (its kind of the main reason for doing it, you don't need them for the whole time).

Do T10 have it? If not just PD.

Not that I am aware of.

So do you think its a net advantage or disadvantage for PD?

Don't need to. The point has always been about the number of employees. Goal shifting is not going to work, especially to fields that are not available to the public.

No, it was your claim that PD is a small team. As such you have to compare apples to apples, and as such unless you are able to show what the FTE value for the 330 subcontractors T10 used, you are not doing so. To simply compare them on a 1 to 1 basis is missleading.

Oh and you also seem to have forgotten about Codemasters.

 

[ImaRobot]

Don't need to. The point has always been about the number of employees. Goal shifting is not going to work, especially to fields that are not available to the public.

If you don't need the contracts to figure out the info, than the only logical info that is smacking you in the face is that they had only 70 full time employees. They also had 330 contracts out that they're paying a different company to do the work for them.

 

[marcvic]

If you don't need the contracts to figure out the info, than the only logical info that is smacking you in the face is that they had only 70 full time employees. They also had 330 contracts out that they're paying a different company to do the work for them.

Two major considerations:

1- The article is from 2011 (6 year old information)

2 - We don't know how long these employees were under contract

There just isn't enough information. We can't say PD is small, we can't say PD is inefficient, and we can't quantify the priority factor (car quantity/car quality/dynamic conditions/design/features). It is a pointless argument whether you want to argue for or against PD.

OK we could have the argument, but we'd need current information that is clear enough to not require detailed interpretation.


marcvic
Honorary PD White Knight
Section 582-B
32nd Battalion, 4th Zone
ID no. 965487-48753

 

[PzR Slim]

Two major considerations:

1- The article is from 2011 (6 year old information)

2 - We don't know how long these employees were under contract

There just isn't enough information. We can't say PD is small, we can't say PD is inefficient, and we can't quantify the priority factor (car quantity/car quality/dynamic conditions/design/features). It is a pointless argument whether you want to argue for or against PD. OK we can, but we'd need current information that is clear enough to not require detailed interpretation.


marcvic
Honorary PD White Knight
Section 582-B
32nd Battalion, 4th Zone
ID no. 965487-48753

PD are not small! We know they have 200 employees. How many employees T10 is immaterial. 200 is not a small team for a dev. T10 maybe bigger but that does not make 200 small.