The GT Sport Epic Whining and Crying Thread
- Thread starter ukfan758
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- Bleh
People can defend PD and GT as much as they want.
The truth is that PD have lost me as a customer because I'm unhappy with their decisions and what they are offering.
They're proud of burning what I held dear?
Not only have PD lost me, their competition has gained me as a customer.
The truth is that PD have lost me as a customer because I'm unhappy with their decisions and what they are offering.
They're proud of burning what I held dear?
Not only have PD lost me, their competition has gained me as a customer.
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Yeah, makes the most sense. The actual in-house staff(of which we're talking about) apparently do the polishing from game to game. If we look at it in the span of 4+ years rather than a car to car basis, I think it gives a better comparison.
I feel PD has an edge in the actual models, but I don't feel it's enough to warrant half the work in the same span of time. A lot of the visual prowess comes from things outside the modeling process, like shaders and lighting, that people seem to conflate. That's where I see inefficiency.
- 1,167
- Paradera
- SDSPOWER01
The modeling itself feels on par with the Forza motorsports series (IMO) the only difference I see is how life-like some material (leather, carbon fiber, aluminium and so on) looks in comparison because of the lighting and shader model PD produces, but things like grass/ vegetation and road surface sometimes looks sharper in Forza.
But in the end I prefer the look of GT-Sport as it suits with my IRL perspective.
- 982
If you guys are just going to continue this fallacy, whilst ignoring industry standards all because it means T10 has twice the number of workers than PD, then this will be my final post on the matter. Ain't worth the time.
For a AAA gaming dev. Which is correct. Its true for the first party AAA dev they are not small.
For a AAA racing dev, still correct as they have half the number of employees as T10 had.
No one in the gaming industry does this when reporting the number of people worked on a game (including contractors), so no, its a fine comparison.
Its honestly laughable how far you are going.
I think we all know the answer to this question lol
And really its fine. Everyone has their biases, but acting like it doesn't exist is just denial.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
Moving the goalposts is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded.
Sound familiar
Nah, its how contracts work.
For a AAA gaming dev. Which is correct. Its true for the first party AAA dev they are not small.
For a AAA racing dev, still correct as they have half the number of employees as T10 had.
No one in the gaming industry does this when reporting the number of people worked on a game (including contractors), so no, its a fine comparison.
Its honestly laughable how far you are going.
I think we all know the answer to this question lol
And really its fine. Everyone has their biases, but acting like it doesn't exist is just denial.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
Moving the goalposts is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded.
Sound familiar
Nah, its how contracts work.
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- 6,838
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No one in this thread is defending T10, there is no need. The only defending going on in this thread is people like yourself who can't accept what PDi has turned out over the past decade is woefully inadequate when compared to other racing game devs. This whole thread of the debate started as a result of you defending this inadequacy by claiming PDi is small. As for your comment about biases and denial. That truly is laughable. None so blind as those who are not prepared to see.
Name any racing game you want and I will happily list what I perceive as its inadequacies. I am not tied to any one system or franchise. I don't need to wade in to defend, defend, defend when any legitimate concern is brought up.
Scaff
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Citation on it being an industry standard.
Only if you fudge the figures to ignore a like for like comparison.
Why are they any different to any other software company?
I work for a software company that provides software solutions to the motor industry and that's exactly how we count heads. It was the same when I've worked for manufacturers, hell it's the standard for HR.
Who has claimed to not have a bias?
Yes, in your posts.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
Moving the goalposts is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded.
Sound familiar
No it's really not, as I have already explained and you have already ignored.
Scaff
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Either address the point or drop the attitude, I've lost count of the number of times I have had to state that it's the ball not the man you play.
You seem to be mixing up marketing spin and blurb for how HR and headcount actually works.
An industry citation in this case would be a HR lead from the industry stating they run a simple count for staff headcount rather that FTE or similar.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-time_equivalent
http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/full-time-equivalent-FTE.html
Now I have already said I work for a software development company in the motor industry and we use FTE, as does every company we sub from and for, as we do for contract calculations and headcount budget calculations.
Edited to add, we are an MS certified partner and I can assure you they also use it. Remind me who owns T10 again?
http://download.microsoft.com/download/0/8/2/0821aeb8-8421-4635-9edb-2b5f1836f633/Campus Agreement Datasheet.doc
http://www.seattletimes.com/busines...ork-force-includes-about-80000-vendors-temps/
FTE calculations are standard across all industries, as it's a standard HR tool. It's also clearly used by MS, the company you are attempting to say it shouldn't be used for.
I'm going to be blunt, you are simply wrong about this. Hell the article above even quotes MS themselves saying that counting contract staff in the way you are doing is innacurate.
"This can cause the vendor figure to appear artificially high,"
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- 13,892
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- Neomone
Are you mistaking an employment contract for a contract to perform work? You know that there are many types of contracts, right? There is no way you can say "this is how contracts work" except in the most basic of terms as an agreement between two or more parties, because all contracts work differently depending on what they're for and how they're written.
But if we're talking about a contract for another company to provide or produce a service or asset, as is the case with T10 and their additional contractors, that is a contract to perform work. Employees working on servicing that contract are not employed by the company receiving the service or asset, even if the employee is a one man company.
It is a case of one company purchasing services, assets or labour from another company. It's really as simple as that. When I buy food from the supermarket, the checkout chick doesn't work for me simply because I'm paying for a product and some service from a company she works for. It's a transaction between two well defined parties that stay well defined.
T10 is no different. If you look at their credits, you'll see all 300+ people who contributed to the game. Where appropriate, you'll almost always see their company listed alongside them, because most companies will want to be credited as part of the work so that they can use that in their portfolio.
The very first entry in the FH2 credits, you can see that Sumo Digital is credited separately from T10, Playground and a bunch of other companies. Look at it from 13:30 and see how many different companies there are in brackets after people's names. They're not working for T10, Playground or Sumo, they're working for whoever they're listed as. It actually lists the employees of T10 Studios at about 14:50, and I only count 96.
You can keep trying to make this argument if you like, but it seems pretty silly when the game itself lists the contributors as working for completely separate and identifiable companies and makes a point of calling that out. Seriously, just back up, admit that you were wrong and that you learned something today. It's fine to question things, but you also need to be able to accept when you're wrong if presented with direct evidence.
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It's not even the amount of content but the quality and according to Kaz that's what makes the difference.
Yes the cars looks great but that's it.
To me quality means more than grains of leather and shiny light bulb.
Tracks - I wanted new real world tracks and exciting fictional tracks located in beautiful places. Instead I see tracks I driven the 🤬 out of in GT6 and fictional tracks as bland and simple as they could make them.
Bland and old tracks = quality
Cars - again I expected a big variety of famous race cars and classical road cars - instead I get an inflated mess of totally out of place concept cars, some real race cars, ZERO classical cars and forced stints like Veyron in GR.4
Old and duplicate cars = quality
Career - and again where is this quality ? Is knocking cones and same old missions we did for 20 years quality ? I expected a renewed career mode with "human drama" elements, with the feel of competition.
No career mode = quality
The PD praised "attention to detail" is a laughable statement if we zoom out of that tire sidewall and look at the whole game.
E-sport focus is not an excuse for any of this.
Yes the cars looks great but that's it.
To me quality means more than grains of leather and shiny light bulb.
Tracks - I wanted new real world tracks and exciting fictional tracks located in beautiful places. Instead I see tracks I driven the 🤬 out of in GT6 and fictional tracks as bland and simple as they could make them.
Bland and old tracks = quality
Cars - again I expected a big variety of famous race cars and classical road cars - instead I get an inflated mess of totally out of place concept cars, some real race cars, ZERO classical cars and forced stints like Veyron in GR.4
Old and duplicate cars = quality
Career - and again where is this quality ? Is knocking cones and same old missions we did for 20 years quality ? I expected a renewed career mode with "human drama" elements, with the feel of competition.
No career mode = quality
The PD praised "attention to detail" is a laughable statement if we zoom out of that tire sidewall and look at the whole game.
E-sport focus is not an excuse for any of this.
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Hard to argue with any of that.
Scaff
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OK, this is simply getting absurd now.
http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2017/08...s-vr-mode-is-at-the-very-top-of-the-industry/
2 cars on track at once is not 'at the very top of the industry'!
Are they not even aware of what other VR racing exists in the industry?
http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2017/08...s-vr-mode-is-at-the-very-top-of-the-industry/
2 cars on track at once is not 'at the very top of the industry'!
Are they not even aware of what other VR racing exists in the industry?
- 6,387
- Nantes
- P308R
Feels almost like those "established" game journalists are being "bribed" / "bought" to surely not write anything negative surrounding GT Sport. I haven't read a single negative remark on most websites concerning GT Sport. Awkward that objectiveness seems completely gone when talking GT Sport
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Feels almost like those "established" game journalists are being "bribed" / "bought" to surely not write anything negative surrounding GT Sport. I haven't read a single negative remark on most websites concerning GT Sport. Awkward that objectiveness seems completely gone when talking GT Sport
For negativity try PretendRaceCars.net .
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- Johnnypenso
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- Lma_robot
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Its completely ironic that you go around claiming fallacies, when every single discussion you've been on so far has been completely off base. It's obvious you have no idea what the "industry standard" is, and you're just trying to grasp at words to try to make it seem like you might have an idea of what you're talking about. You repeating something over and over again doesn't make it anymore true, especially when you've been slapped in the face many times with the corrections to your misinformation.
Nah, they're actually pretty close when you look at full time employees, instead of every single person that has done some work that isn't employed by them.
That you don't see the irony in this is honestly the only laughable thing here. Well not the only, but the other one is completely obvious.
Seems like informal fallacy is something you must have just learned, you seem to be using it (incorrectly) a lot. You've been the only one moving goal postsMoving the goalposts is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded.
Sound familiar
The "informal fallacy" here is the fact that you can't grasp what the actual contractors work is, and how they work in instances like this. Your whole discussion from the get go has been a informal fallacy(as well as a logical one) because you're basing it around incorrect definitions of how contractors work, and thinking that because you paid someone for a product, that they're automatically your employee. Come on man, do you just post things and instantly forget them? It's funny that you'd even use a word like that considering it's literally looking like a definition that fits you exactly.No one is denying that, and no one has. I like games, in general. I also like discussing aspects of games as well. However, All that is going on here is calling you out(once again) on your incorrect information.
It's how a Employer-employee contract works, when you hire someone on, pay their benefits, set up their insurance, set up their 401k, withhold taxes and SSI. However, it's not the contract that looks to be going on here, otherwise they would have listed these outsourced employee's, that work for a completely different company, as part of their full time staff and not specifically create the divide between it when talking about them.
I'll pose this question again, since you keep ignoring it; I work for a company that pays another CNC Machining shop to make our custom fittings and sleeve nuts for coolers and oil relocation kits, so that automatically means that every single employee from this completely separate entity is now automatically an employee of my work place?
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McLaren
Premium
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Except they don't. Dhruva and the like do not work for T10. If they did, then they also work for Sony, MS, Rare, 313, etc.
It's a ridiculous train of thought.
I would hope so given you're the one doing it....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
Moving the goalposts is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded.
Sound familiar
Silver Arrows
(Banned)
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ITT: People defending the honor of PD, no matter what.
I realize that this is a GT focused forum, but come on. Use a little thinking.
I realize that this is a GT focused forum, but come on. Use a little thinking.
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Feels almost like those "established" game journalists are being "bribed" / "bought" to surely not write anything negative surrounding GT Sport. I haven't read a single negative remark on most websites concerning GT Sport. Awkward that objectiveness seems completely gone when talking GT Sport
You know, if the media won't say anything negative about the game, then perhaps it's up to the informed GTPlanet membership. There is social media and word of mouth can be a surprisingly powerful medium of information. It was word of mouth that changed my mind about this series from "this is great!" to "this really is a piece of crap".
You could take what TurismoBad said and turn it into a set of memes that could be shared:
marcvic
Premium
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- marcvic
Efficiency is a measure of resources input vs. product output (we could factor time/waste into it, but then its too complicated). So without information on resources put in, I can't say who is more efficient.
FM7 has more cars. PC2 has more tracks. But I can't automatically label PD as inefficient simply because it has less cars and tracks than PC2/FM7. GTS has over a thousand photo locations, thousands of encyclopedia/museum tidbits, and what appears to be one of the best livery editors available. It doesn't mean the others are inefficient when it comes to producing photo locations or presenting the user with interesting car knowledge. No, it just means that they didn't prioritize those things.
In fact, GT SPort's livery editor seems to be one of the best livery editors available. It took 4 years to develop - T10 has been working on livery editors for 14 years (if we assume it took 2 years to develop FM2). So because GTS' livery editor looks more robust after 4 years, than what T10 has after 14, does that automatically deem T10 to be inefficient? I don't think so.
"PD is inefficient" is simply an inconclusive blanket statement used as a means to highlight the fact that GTS has fewer cars/tracks than FM7 and PC2.
-17 tracks
-150+ cars
-1000s of photo scapes (best in class - makes Photoshop unnecessary)
-livery editor (best in class)
-Running GT/FIA championships w/ scheduled events during the season
-Daily online rotating races
-Custom race creater (that is integrated into the in-game economy)
-Exclusive content from manufacturers (VGT/brand central videos/museum)
-Rally driving
-Ability to pick time of day
-Ability to pick weather conditions
-Training tools to learn tracks
-Training tools to learn race techniques
-Autocross style events (cones, slalom & whatever else they have that has not been shown)
-VR mode
Not sure if I'm missing anything or not, and there could possibly be a surprise or two. If anyone wants to, they can list what the others are offering. Please don't start an "I have no use for that" debate. The point is to provide a line item comparison of what each gives you (cars/tracks) and allows you to do.
*I almost included graphics on the list, as I feel that GT allows you to take pictures that other games simply can't - thus making the experience deeper. I left it off though as I feel like it doesn't belong on the list - just as much as physics, sound, music or elaborate UI don't belong on this list.
Good point on the surface. Let's try to apply that same inconclusive verdict in another scenario:
Just Cause 3 took five years to come out after JC2 and features a 400 sq. mile open world. Fallout 4 also took five years since Fallout NV and features a 3.82 sq. mile map.
Bethesda is inefficient at creating large open worlds ---- It's a baseless argument based on shallow information.
Are you seriously trying to spark a social media campaign to circulate a negative opinion on GTS? That may..... be.... a bit........much.
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I've seen a few people here bemoan the fact that the wider GT audience may not be informed about GTS's shortcomings compared to the competition. I simply pointed out that there's a way they could remedy this if they so desire. Besides, I'm seeing plenty of negative opinions being expressed about the game (various high profile GTP members, comments on various sites) so I wonder if such a campaign would be ultimately redundant.
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Tired Tyres
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Three Forza main titles in the SAME timeframe as one halfway between prologue and full GT game. Any other considerations do not matter. Games released matter. That is efficiency.
As for games journalists, presumably, flown over, wined, dined and put up not at their own expense, are not really going to say anything that isn't "nice" now are they? Balance is required.
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- hypershock12
I've definitively hears criticism towards GTS by journalists. Although, they were from another country, and one of the members on the site had translated what they said in the video for everyone else.
This is what they said:
Courtesy to
CodeCmdr
This is what they said:
- Great graphics, smooth frame-rates.
- Sim-cade game; no hard-core sim.
- No damage model (at least not in the preview demo they had available).
- Rally force-feedback feels very bland compared to Dirt Rally. On tarmac, FFB feels great.
- No real SP campaign besides driving school/challenges.
- Online racing feels smooth; no technical problems.
Courtesy to
CodeCmdr
- 14,436
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You can also gauge inefficiency on the idea of missing dates that was set up by themselves, and things like resource management. Car modeling is extremely slow for them, so I feel that they need to get with the times and start outsourcing. Outsourcing doesn't automatically mean the work is going to be worse either, it depends on your guidelines. His insistence on keeping everything else is nothing but bull, IMO, and is doing nothing but holding back the game. That is one area of inefficiency I see.
Yes, especially so when you see SMS with the smallest staff of the three, doing so much more. They look like they're being extremely efficient with whats available to them. However, I'm still weary from problems that plagued the first game, so if those problems still persist, than thats an area they are going to be inefficient in. Time will tell.
And while all those things are great to have, it seems to come at the expense of something else, to me. Especially when you read that and think how great it sounds, and then you think about the Career mode and think of it being so lackluster in terms of presentation compared to those other aspects you mentioned. To me, that is a mismanagement of resources, and time could have been better spent in the Career mode.
Forza vista also slapped you with car knowledge depending on the brand you were in. Hopefully they expand upon that and make it per actual vehicle, rather than brand. Forza didn't aim for having 1000+Scapes, but they made so you can dissect every bit of the car since now ForzaVista is available throughout every single track. Thats a giant step up from before. They seemed to take a more balanced approach overall, and that's what looks appealing to me.
T10 hasn't developed their editor since it was released, from what I can tell. There has been little to no changes since it came out, and it seems to follow the "if it aint broke don't fix it" mentality. That can also be seen in a negative light as there has been very little change in that regard, however, even considering that, it has been the most robust editor for the past 14 years, even with the lack of change within it. It's about time someone one upped them because that only puts pressure for change again, and improvement.
However, the only thing that would make it the best is if the import feature is implemented extremely well. I'm still waiting for info on what restrictions we're going to have.
I can post for Forza's side, as that is my main interest right now. Both these games have been developed for the past 4 years
-30+ Tracks
-700+ Vehicles
-Livery editor
-Custom Race Creator
-Ability to pick time of day(Might be dynamic)
-Dynamic Weather
-Autocross Style events
-Vast leaderboard/challange mode with every player connected to online.
-4k60fps Locked
-Driver customization
-Vehicle customization
-Vast post-release support, both paid and free
-Competent AI
-Sharing/Community networking(Auction house, Storefront for liveries and tunes)
-Forzavista(actually being able to open basically every major aspect of a vehicle.)
-An actual career mode
-eSport seasons/leagues
Yes, I agree because a smaller map doesn't make it inefficient on it's own, as it didn't detract, or negatively affect the game. The two games have endless amounts of "meat" and didn't disregard part of its playerbase with what was in it. They didn't look like they were actually lacking anything. Where the comparison works between the two map sizes would be akin to the differences in modeling done between the games. The differences didn't detract negatively from anything when looking at it. All the content was still there.
If you feel the smaller map is inefficiency, than how has that inefficiency negatively impacted the game?
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marcvic
Premium
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- marcvic
I made 2 changes to your list. 1) If graphics don't go on the GTS list, 4Kfps shouldn't be on the FM7 list (besides the latest GTS builds appear to be running very smooth). **Also, competent AI shouldn't go on the list either. Each game, based on recent builds, has competent AI.
Edit: I also removed 'vast post-release support'
Here's my list - the bolded text are ones that I have added to the list:
**A funny video that I came across a long time ago:
Edit: I also removed 'vast post-release support'
Here's my list - the bolded text are ones that I have added to the list:
**A funny video that I came across a long time ago:
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