The GT Sport Epic Whining and Crying Thread

[ImaRobot]

Two major considerations:

1- The article is from 2011 (6 year old information)

2 - We don't know how long these employees were under contract

Yes, that's what I originally noted when I introduced that into the discussion. This lines up pretty well with what @SlipZtrEm was told in an interview, as Slip himself stated 150~ staff in a post not to long ago.

Length doesn't have much do with them still not being full time employee's, does it?

There just isn't enough information.

There is though, especially from our most reputable sources from here, unless we should just think the staff here is lying? Either way, he himself said he didn't need any of that info, so if hes not going to use any of that info than logic would follow suit with what was actually told. 70 full time, 330 contracts from a different company(which they do not determine the income, their taxes, their SSI, and so on.)

We can't say PD is small

We can definitely say they aren't small. What we can say is that there is bigger devs, but that does nothing for the conversation. They are not a small company. They have multiple offices around the world, and the one in Venice, CA being the newest, which came after the initial quote from Kaz saying they are at 200+, already.

we can't say PD is inefficient

We very much can voice our opinion on it, and their lack of getting things out in a timely manner.

we can't quantify the priority factor

We may not be able to quantify priority, but we can putt two games side by side that both took the same amount of time to make with relatively large staff sizes.

It is a pointless argument whether you want to argue for or against PD.

Well feel free to opt out when you want. It's pointless to you, and that's fine, but I'm wondering why you keep coming back in if all you're going to do is try to repeat how pointless it is.

 

[NixxxoN]

T10 is much larger tho, outsourced people count like employees because they still do a job for them

 

[PzR Slim]

T10 is much larger tho, outsourced people count like employees because they still do a job for them

Over the past two years how many weeks did those outsourced people work?

 

[McLaren]

If you don't need the contracts to figure out the info, than the only logical info that is smacking you in the face is that they had only 70 full time employees. They also had 330 contracts out that they're paying a different company to do the work for them.

And it's not even 1 company. Under Forza 5, Dhruva listed as a Vendor along with Glass Egg Digital Media, Valkyrie Entertainment, Virtuos Group, & The Audio Guys.

By the logic being presented by this member as well, Dhruva & Glass Egg employees are also the employees of all these developers who outsource to them.
http://www.dhruva.com/clients.php
http://www.glassegg.com/portfolio/

Really? So if these guys are going to be listed as employed by T10, then they're also employees for Sony and Microsoft? How does that not sound completely asinine?

 

[ImaRobot]

T10 is much larger tho, outsourced people count like employees because they still do a job for them

Yeah, and we get a company to paint our coolers, does that mean that that companies employees are now employed by the people that own the company I work for?

 

[NixxxoN]

Over the past two years how many weeks did those outsourced people work?

Don't as me, ask Dan Greenawalt

 

[Scaff]

T10 is much larger tho, outsourced people count like employees because they still do a job for them

Its been said multiple times, but you seem to have missed it, so here we go again.

You can't simply compare subcontract or short term employees to full time staff on a one for one basis. As I have quite clearly stated above, if I sub-contact 52 people for a week, its the equivalent of 1 full time employee over the course of a year. That's not making numbers up, that's how it works when you subcontract (its kind of the main reason for doing it, you don't need them for the whole time).

 

[ImaRobot]

And it's not even 1 company. Under Forza 5, Dhruva listed as a Vendor along with Glass Egg Digital Media, Valkyrie Entertainment, Virtuos Group, & The Audio Guys.

By the logic being presented by this member as well, Dhruva & Glass Egg employees are also the employees of all these developers who outsource to them.
http://www.dhruva.com/clients.php
http://www.glassegg.com/portfolio/

Really? So if these guys are going to be listed as employed by T10, then they also work for Sony and Microsoft? How does that not sound completely asinine?

Thanks for that, I was searching for the sites but couldn't find anything.

Don't as me, ask Dan Greenawalt

You said it though, not Dan.

 

[NixxxoN]

Its been said multiple times, but you seem to have missed it, so here we go again.

You can't simply compare subcontract or short term employees to full time staff on a one for one basis. As I have quite clearly stated above, if I sub-contact 52 people for a week, its the equivalent of 1 full time employee over the course of a year. That's not making numbers up, that's how it works when you subcontract (its kind of the main reason for doing it, you don't need them for the whole time).

Sure, when someone contracts someone else to model a very detailed 3D car, they do so for a week and get the job done. Right.
No need to go for contract details, the fact is that oursourcing work has to count.

 

[McLaren]

T10 is much larger tho, outsourced people count like employees because they still do a job for them

They're doing a job for their company. By your logic if we're going to count people doing jobs for one another as "employed by", I think it's safe to assume PD's numbers are also higher as well with the amount of work SIE Worldwide Studios does overseeing them.

It is a single internal entity overseeing all wholly owned development studios within SIE. It is responsible for the creative and strategic direction of development and production of all computer entertainment software by all SIE-owned studios, all of which is produced exclusively for the PlayStation family of consoles.

Subsidiary:
Polyphony Digital

 

[PzR Slim]

Don't as me, ask Dan Greenawalt

So basically you have no idea how many people were working on T10 games in the past two years yet you still claimed, 'T10 is much larger tho'. How can you claim that if you don't know the answer?

 

[marcvic]

So basically you have no idea how many people were working on T10 games in the past two years yet you still claimed, 'T10 is much larger tho'. How can you claim that if you don't know the answer?

The same way that someone can claim PD is inefficient.

 

[Scaff]

Sure, when someone contracts someone else to model a very detailed 3D car, they do so for a week and get the job done. Right.
No need to go for contract details, the fact is that oursourcing work has to count.

Which makes them 1/52 of a Full Time Employee.

As such you can't count them on a one for one basis, doing so is simply missleading.

 

[PzR Slim]

The same way that someone can claim PD is inefficient.

We know how many people work for PD and know their output, it's very easy to draw conclusions from that.

 

[NixxxoN]

So basically you have no idea how many people were working on T10 games in the past two years yet you still claimed, 'T10 is much larger tho'. How can you claim that if you don't know the answer?

They were much larger several years ago 300+ according to several articles, So with the ever increasing complexity of games and graphics I expect them to be still larger and have grown
BTW Why you guys are defeinding Turn 10 so much, in this GT subforum? Its strange.

 

[Scaff]

They were much larger several years ago 300+ according to several articles, So with the ever increasing complexity of games and graphics I expect them to be still larger and have grown

Nope. We know from a few years ago they had 70 FTE's (and @SlipZtrEm has said that is now around 150 FTE's), the rest are contracted on some basis, they do not (unless you can show otherwise) count as FTE's on a 1 to 1 basis.

BTW Why you guys are defeinding Turn 10 so much, in this GT subforum? Its strange.

That its a GT subforum means nothing at all, and the point has nothing to do with defending anyone or anything at all.

That you have that as a go to position says quite a bit about yourself.

 

[PzR Slim]

They were much larger several years ago 300+ according to several articles, So with the ever increasing complexity of games and graphics I expect them to be still larger and have grown
BTW Why you guys are defeinding Turn 10 so much, in this GT subforum? Its strange.

Once again, how many weeks of the year did those subcontract workers work. It's very important as it gives us a total man hours worked compared to other devs in particular PD as another one of the caped crusaders told us that 'PD are small'. No one is defending T10, there is no need to. All we are doing is disproving this ridiculous notion that PD are small.

 

[ImaRobot]

The same way that someone can claim PD is inefficient.

How so? One is an opinion, one is a stating a fact.

 

[NixxxoN]

Nope. We know from a few years ago they had 70 FTE's (and @SlipZtrEm has said that is now around 150 FTE's), the rest are contracted on some basis, they do not (unless you can show otherwise) count as FTE's on a 1 to 1 basis.


That its a GT subforum means nothing at all, and the point has nothing to do with defending anyone or anything at all.

That you have that as a go to position says quite a bit about yourself.

Who cares about FTE or not, you have to count all the work directly for the games, outsourced included. Note that I dont say all the PEOPLE but all the WORK.

Im a GT fan, I like PD because they produce one of my favorite games, and I dont give a damn about T10 or forza, any problem?

Once again, how many weeks of the year did those subcontract workers work. It's very important as it gives us a total man hours worked compared to other devs in particular PD as another one of the caped crusaders told us that 'PD are small'. No one is defending T10, there is no need to. All we are doing is disproving this ridiculous notion that PD are small.

Again ask Dan Greenawalt. I dont know but I bet its a lot.
Everything is relative. PD is small or not depending of how others are. If there are other game dev studios with thousands of people, then it means PD is small.

 

[PzR Slim]

Who cares about FTE or not, you have to count all the work directly for the games, outsourced included. Note that I dont say all the PEOPLE but all the WORK.

Im a GT fan, I like PD because they produce one of my favorite games, and I dont give a damn about T10 or forza, any problem?

Again ask Dan Greenawalt. I dont know but I bet its a lot.
Everything is relative. PD is small or not depending of how others are. If there are other game dev studios with thousands of people, then it means PD is small.

You really need to go back and read the thread as we have now been over this numerous times and you are just repeating the errors of others.

 

[ImaRobot]

Who cares about FTE or not, you have to count all the work directly for the games, outsourced included. Note that I dont say all the PEOPLE but all the WORK.

So I work for a company that sells performance coolers, and we get a lot of our fittings and sleeve nuts custom made from a different company. So now that means that all the employees from that completely separate company are now the employees of the company I work for?

Im a GT fan, I like PD because they produce one of my favorite games, and I dont give a damn about T10 or forza, any problem?

Than why keep bringing up T10?

Again ask Dan Greenawalt. I dont know but I bet its a lot.
Everything is relative. PD is small or not depending of how others are. If there are other game dev studios with thousands of people, then it means PD is small.

You have no idea what you're talking about, and your insistence on coming into a discussion, only to try to escape it on the very first post when you get questioned about it isn't adding anything to the conversation.

 

[Scaff]

Who cares about FTE or not, you have to count all the work directly for the games, outsourced included. Note that I dont say all the PEOPLE but all the WORK.

Well the people who would care would be the ones interested in doing an honest, like for like comparison.

Seems that doesn't include you.

Not to mention that FTE does exactly what you want, it converts the number of PEOPLE into WORK, the WORK of a standard single employee. As such you comment above make no sense at all.

Im a GT fan, I like PD because they produce one of my favorite games, and I dont give a damn about T10 or forza, any problem?

Which doesn't then give you a mandate to start determining the course of a conversation.

Again ask Dan Greenawalt. I dont know but I bet its a lot.
Everything is relative. PD is small or not depending of how others are. If there are other game dev studios with thousands of people, then it means PD is small.

Which is achieved how? Given that you only want to talk about PD.

However I do agree that its all relative, which is why FTE's are valid and why comparisons with other companies (and that includes T10) are valid.

Odd then you tried to say that neither should be.

You're full of it.

Play the ball, no the man.

 

[McLaren]

Of course the goal posts would be changed again. We're going from the actual number of people who work for 2 developers to the amount of work everyone involved contributes towards a game.

Check out PD & T10's newest employees....

 

[ImaRobot]

Play the ball, no the man.

I'm not playing the man, I'm insisting that he doesn't know what he's talking about. However, I'll reword it in a not-so-straightforward way.

 

[Scaff]

I'm not playing the man, I'm insisting that he doesn't know what he's talking about. However, I'll reword it in a not-so-straightforward way.

Thank you.

 

[SDSPOWER01]

The same way that someone can claim PD is inefficient.

Look its as simple as this if one company can produce maximum productivity with little effort and time they are the more efficient one (not just quantity but QUALITY aswell). Also looking into efficiency you have to consider the time the devs take to produce their maximum effort (GT sport- 6 months for one single car no outsourcing total cars: 150+ super premium, Forza motorsports 7- 6 to 7 months for each car with outsource total of cars 700+ all forza vista included). Given the year it took for PD to achieve 150+ cars was 3-4 years, Forza motorsports 7 2-3 years.

Tell me yourself who is the more efficient one? (in my eyes it looks like Turn 10).

Edit: Forgot to add that not all 700+ cars are built from scratch.

 

[NixxxoN]

Well the people who would care would be the ones interested in doing an honest, like for like comparison.

Seems that doesn't include you.

Which doesn't then give you a mandate to start determining the course of a conversation.

Which is achieved how? Given that you only want to talk about PD.

However I do agree that its all relative, which is why FTE's are valid and why comparisons with other companies (and that includes T10) are valid.

Odd then you tried to say that neither should be.


Play the ball, no the man.

"says quite a bit about yourself." ... says what?

honest comparisons lol, says a dude who seems to want to ignore or minimize the outsourcing development work.

 

[marcvic]

Check out PD & T10's newest employees....

Great minds think alike

 

[McLaren]

Look its as simple as this if one company can produce maximum productivity with little effort and time they are the more efficient one (not just quantity but QUALITY aswell). Also looking into efficiency you have to consider the time the devs take to produce their maximum effort (GT sport- 6 months for one single car no outsourcing total cars: 150+ super premium, Forza motorsports 7- 6 to 7 months for each car with outsource total of cars 700+ all forza vista included). Given the year it took for PD to achieve 150+ cars was 3-4 years, Forza motorsports 7 2-3 years.

Tell me yourself who is the more efficient one? (in my eyes it looks like Turn 10).

I think in fairness, T10 hasn't actually spent 6-7 months on each of the 700 cars in a time span of 2-3 years. I'm fairly certain a nice chunk of the 700 cars will date back to FM5 & the Horizon games they were initially created for. Maybe a little polishing.

I do think PD is being inefficient though if they are truly creating GT Sport models from scratch when GT6 models were supposed to be future-proof. That seems like an awfully lot of work on the GT6 Premiums wasted.

 

[Scaff]

"says quite a bit about yourself." ... says what?

That you will defend PD at the expense of logic.

honest comparisons lol, says a dude who seems to want to ignore or minimize the outsourcing development work.

Nope, quote me doing so.

All I have said is that you can't compare outsourced staff to Full Time Employees on a one to one basis.

That's neither ignoring or minimizing, its asking for an accurate and honest comparison.