The Homosexuality Discussion Thread

[Touring Mars]

I'm watching this documentary on Channel 4 right now about homophobia in Russia, and...🤬 me, it's chilling.

I just turned over when I saw your post... absolutely horrific.

 

[PsuPepperoni]

I don't think a male transsexual should be able to play women's sports, because they will always have superior muscle development. Otherwise I have no problem with any of this.

 

[Joel]

Bit of a lighter note on the Olympics stuff:

 

[FoolKiller]

I don't think a male transsexual should be able to play women's sports, because they will always have superior muscle development. Otherwise I have no problem with any of this.

This is something that I find too difficult to take a solid stance on. In some cases you have a person who needs surgery and drugs to even pass as the opposite gender. But other cases you have a person who appears to be one gender from birth, but genetic testing says otherwise.

I think transgender is such a physiologically and psychologically broad spectrum that it has to be a case by case basis.

 

[Danny]

Old news but posting this here because it contains what might just be my favourite two paragraphs of all time.

Amalaha says his "groundbreaking" experiments show the north and south poles of two magnets are attracted to each other while same poles repel each other.

He concludes this “means that man cannot attract another man because they are the same, and a woman should not attract a woman because they are the same. That is how I used physics to prove gay marriage wrong".

 

[Daniel]

Dispatches: Hunted. A documentary on the homophobia in Russia. Just shows how good we have it around the rest of the world. Can be very graphic in some parts, so watch with your own discretion.

 

[DK]

I wouldn't be shocked if, once the Olympics and Paralympics are done, there's going to be a "Kristallnacht" against gays in Russia soon.

 

[Rage Racer]

I wouldn't be shocked if, once the Olympics and Paralympics are done, there's going to be a "Kristallnacht" against gays in Russia soon.

Wat? Gays are going to be "holocausted"?
Jeez. Guys, I live in that country you're talking about and you have no idea how ridiculous do such comments look from there. Do you really see Russia as a big concentration camp where gays are locked up by the Kei-Gee-Bee or being burnt in gas furnaces, and the Fuhrer named Vladimir Putin (Vladolf Putler?) commands all of this? This is just...
Of course, The Crab is pretty far from being a perfect president, but he's not close even to Brezhnev in his "dictatorship", let alone Stalin or Hitler.

BTW, an article from Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...f0baf0-8548-11e3-9dd4-e7278db80d86_story.html

The U.S. hypocrisy over Russia’s anti-gay laws
By Ian Ayres and William Eskridge, Published: February 1
Ian Ayres and William Eskridge are law professors at Yale University.

Controversy over a Russian law that prohibits advocacy of homosexuality threatens to overshadow athletic competition at the upcoming Sochi Olympics. Thoughtful world leaders, including President Obama, have criticized Russia for stigmatizing gay identity.

Many of these critics find it hard to believe that in 2014 a modern industrial government would have this kind of medieval language in its statutory code:

●“Materials adopted by a local school board. . . shall . . . comply with state law and state board rules . . .prohibiting instruction . . . in the advocacy of homosexuality.”

●“Propaganda of homosexualism among minors is punishable by an administrative fine.”

●“No district shall include in its course of study instruction which: 1. Promotes a homosexual life-style. 2. Portrays homosexuality as a positive alternative life-style. 3. Suggests that some methods of sex are safe methods of homosexual sex.”

●“Instruction relating to sexual education or sexually transmitted diseases should include . . . emphasis, provided in a factual manner and from a public health perspective, that homosexuality is not a lifestyle acceptable to the general public and that homosexual conduct is a criminal offense.”

Amid the rush to condemn Russia’s legislation, however, it is useful to recognize that only the second quoted provision comes from the Russian statute.

The other three come from statutes in the United States. It is Utah that prohibits “the advocacy of homosexuality.” Arizona prohibits portrayals of homosexuality as a “positive alternative life-style” and has legislatively determined that it is inappropriate to even suggest to children that there are “safe methods of homosexual sex.” Alabama and Texas mandate that sex-education classes emphasize that homosexuality is “not a lifestyle acceptable to the general public.” Moreover, the Alabama and Texas statutes mandate that children be taught that “homosexual conduct is a criminal offense” even though criminalizing private, consensual homosexual conduct has been unconstitutional since 2003.

Eight U.S. states, and several cities and counties, have some version of what we call “no promo homo” provisions. Before the United States condemns the Russian statute’s infringement of free speech and academic freedom, it should recognize that our own republican forms of government have repeatedly given rise to analogous restrictions.

It is no coincidence that these examples focus on what must and must not be said to children. An explanatory note accompanying the 2013 Russian legislation makes clear that the statute seeks to protect children “from the factors that negatively affect their physical, intellectual, mental, spiritual, and moral development.” Proponents of the U.S. statutes have offered similar justification. And, like Russian President Vladimir Putin this month, the U.S. laws warn gay people and sympathizers to “leave kids alone, please.”

The underlying ideology of these statutes is the same: Everybody should be heterosexual, and homosexuality is per se bad. This ideology has never rested on any kind of evidence that homosexuality is a bad “choice” that the state ought to discourage. The ideology is a prejudice-laden legacy of a fading era. (In fact, the strategy is daffy: Even if homosexuality were a bad lifestyle choice, state laws are not an effective way to head off such a choice.)

Putin has assured the International Olympic Committee that the law is merely symbolic. But in the United States, officially sanctioned anti-gay prejudice has contributed to classroom bullying and to the high level of suicides among gay teens.

The actor and playwright Harvey Fierstein has called on the United States to boycott the Sochi Games because Russia prohibits “propaganda of homosexuality.” But recall that in 2002 the United States proudly, and without comment, sent its Olympic athletes to a state — Utah — that prohibits the “advocacy of homosexuality.” Maybe Obama ought to send Olympic delegates Billie Jean King and Brian Boitano to Alabama and Texas.

We offer that suggestion somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but there is an important lesson here. Sometimes the moral failings of others can help us see moral failings in ourselves. It was revulsion toward Nazi Germany’s eugenics policy that, in part, caused U.S. legislatures and courts to renounce state sterilization programs. Opposition to South African apartheid and the Soviet Union’s totalitarian regime generated greater national pressure for the Eisenhower administration and the Warren court to renounce apartheid in the American South.

Putin’s inability to justify this law puts a spotlight on the inability of Utah, Texas, Arizona and other states to justify their gay-stigmatizing statutes. They should be repealed or challenged in court. Just as judges led the way against compulsory sterilization and racial-segregation laws, so they should subject anti-gay laws to critical scrutiny.

As things stand, one could imagine Putin responding to U.S. criticism by saying: “You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye.”

 

[FoolKiller]

It should be noted that the US laws quoted refer to state-run schools only, not colleges, not private schools, and not public speech. The US regulations that are quoted affect teachers while teaching. The Russian law limits all citizens in all places and denies free speech.

As a parent, I'd prefer schools didn't take a side on the issue either way, as they may conflict with my own beliefs. I know the one that is to teach it as unhealthy and unsafe would have me complaining at school board meetings and calling my state lawmakers.

Also, as these are state laws there is no hypocrisy on Obama's part. He has zero control over state laws.

 

[Rage Racer]

"Denies free speech". What do they need to say that is not allowed to?
They say they're not intended to make other people homosexual. Then what's the problem? This law is not meant to touch you if you really aren't interested in that.

They say they need gay prides to "tell about their rights". What rights? They are allowed to love each other. Nobody bans them from that. And nobody intends to close gay clubs. Legalize gay marriage? Sorry, but no. (Not now, at least.) We understand "marriage" as something between a man and a woman only. And how do you think people in Muslim republics (Tatarstan, Chechnya, etc.) will like gay marriage in their homeland?

Stop the discrimination? Who discriminates them? The government? Can they have problems with employment becaus of their sexual orientation? No. Are they banned from sperm and blood donorship? Sorry, but these are medical restrictions. We can't accept bio materials possibly infected with HIV.

Do they get attacked by criminals? Not them alone. When I walk alone on a dark street, I am a possible victim of a criminal (God forbid from that) too, but I don't say that I can be attacked because I'm straight.

 

[Famine]

"Denies free speech". What do they need to say that is not allowed to?

Is there anything they (or anyone) isn't allowed to say? If so, free speech is denied.

They say they're not intended to make other people homosexual. Then what's the problem? This law is not meant to touch you if you really aren't interested in that.

Do Russian lawmakers think homosexuality is a choice? If so, when did they choose to be heterosexual?

I think I missed that day at school.

They say they need gay prides to "tell about their rights". What rights? They are allowed to love each other. Nobody bans them from that. And nobody intends to close gay clubs. Legalize gay marriage? Sorry, but no. (Not now, at least.) We understand "marriage" as something between a man and a woman only.

So you say they can't marry, but that they don't need to talk about how their rights are being ignored?

Really?

And how do you think people in Muslim republics (Tatarstan, Chechnya, etc.) will like gay marriage in their homeland?

Apparently you've already got a problem with it.

Stop the discrimination? Who discriminates them? The government?

You just did...

Are they banned from sperm and blood donorship? Sorry, but these are medical restrictions. We can't accept bio materials possibly infected with HIV.

Straight people don't get HIV infections now?

Hey, how about an HIV screening program rather than banning gay people from donating and letting HIV-infected straight people's blood and sperm through?

 

[DK]

Do they get attacked by criminals? Not them alone. When I walk alone on a dark street, I am a possible victim of a criminal (God forbid from that), but I don't say that I can be attacked because I'm straight.

You might not get attacked purely because you're straight, but can the same be said for gays? Have you ever heard of "gay safaris"?

 

[Danny]

Ok, I wasn't going to do this since you spend most of your time spouting Russian propaganda butttt...

"Denies free speech". What do they need to say that is not allowed to?

Being forbidden to say certain things is denial of free speech.

They say they're not intended to make other people homosexual. Then what's the problem? This law is not meant to touch you if you really aren't interested in that.

The problem is that the government has a screwy idea of what 'homosexual propaganda' is and it's really more of an excuse to eradicate free speech. See above. Also it's not a choice and there's no recruitment process (bureaucratic nightmare anyway) but that's probably one of the more minor points here.

They say they need gay prides to "tell about their rights".

Nope. And also 'they'? They decided this en-masse?

What rights? They are allowed to love each other. Nobody bans them from that.

Not really since that's used to try and justify this.

Legalize gay marriage? Sorry, but no.

(Not now, at least.)

Then it's discriminatory.

We understand "marriage" as something between a man and a woman only.

Then it's discriminatory.

Also understand it as between a man and a woman only based on what?

Stop the discrimination? Who discriminates them? The government?

See above. And you literally just did.

Can they have problems with employment becaus of their sexual orientation? No.

You'd be amazed. Or not.

Are they banned from sperm and blood donorship? Sorry, but these are medical restrictions. We can't accept bio materials possibly infected with HIV.

That's not disputed.

Do they get attacked by criminals? Not them alone.

Weak. If you're trying to tell me that they're not more likely to be attacked than anyone else then you've gone from biased and evasive to straight up lying.

I don't say that I can be attacked because I'm straight.

Well, obviously.

Edit: God damn it, @Famine.

 

[Carbonox]

And how do you think people in Muslim republics (Tatarstan, Chechnya, etc.) will like gay marriage in their homeland?

Since they're the minority, and their rights aren't being taken away, they should have nothing to complain about.

 

[Rage Racer]

Is there anything they (or anyone) isn't allowed to say? If so, free speech is denied.

Yes, there are some things that are not allowed to say for anyone (not only for gays). Like what was written in that other guy's post before mine you've just deleted (or not you, doesn't matter).
Of course, profanity, insults and vowing to violence are much different from gay propaganda.
But as you see, there's no such thing as total freedom of speech in any country.
And do you really care if you may not say something that you never say (and never will) anyway?

Do Russian lawmakers think homosexuality is a choice? If so, when did they choose to be heterosexual?

I think I missed that day at school.

They probably do, but that's the problem of their own stupidity (if you think that the "anti-gay law" is the only idiotic Russian law you're wrong).
But if you understand that homo/heterosexuality is not a choice, you probably won't be telling anyone to change his/her sexual orientation, will you? So what's the problem?

So you say they can't marry, but that they don't need to talk about how their rights are being ignored?

Really?

Scotland has legalized gay marriage just recently, what do you expect from Russia with local people's mindset then?

Apparently you've already got a problem with it.

Yes we have.
In your country, you probably won't ask Muslim immigrants because they are guests and must obey the laws and respect the traditions of the country they are in.
But not in mine. Because those republics are their native land.

Straight people don't get HIV infections now?

Hey, how about an HIV screening program rather than banning gay people from donating and letting HIV-infected straight people's blood and sperm through?

Of course they get. But gays aren't allowed because of higher risks (sure there is a screening program, but... Hell, I don't know exactly why, will try to find out later).
And drug addicts are banned from it, too. So this is discrimination of drug addicts from now on?

Ok, I wasn't going to do this since you spend most of your time spouting Russian propaganda butttt...

No, my opinion is not based on any propaganda. I think this is you who's spouting Western propaganda.
I do not like my government and I never voted for Putin. And I admit that law is a stupid idea and the government has a lot more important things to do.
What I want is to tell you how the situation really is. I tell what I see, and believe me, I know it better than you.

Not really since that's used to try and justify this.

'This' is a crime and has nothing to do with the 'anti-gay law' and Putin signing it. Perhaps it has with Kolokoltsev (the head of MVD) who's responsible for the police being lazy. The law does not let anyone hurt gays (if they don't resist to the cops, of course).

Also understand it as between a man and a woman only based on what?

Cultural mindset maybe. Also try asking those Caucasian Muslims why Allah doesn't tolerate gay marriage.

Weak. If you're trying to tell me that they're not more likely to be attacked than anyone else then you've gone from biased and evasive to straight up lying.

They are just a little more likely to be hit than Asians or Africans are.
Because most 'gay hunters' are Nazis and gays are not the only victims of them. And again, this is a crime, nobody allows those bastards to do that, and if they are caught, they get punished hard. Maxim "Tesak" Martsinkevich has got his ass in jail recently (although he tried to hide in Cuba).

P.S. Sorry for skipping some points, I really want to sleep...

Since they're the minority, and their rights aren't being taken away, they should have nothing to complain about.

And gays are the majority? Who told you that there are more gays living in RF than Muslims?

 

[FoolKiller]

"Denies free speech". What do they need to say that is not allowed to?
They say they're not intended to make other people homosexual. Then what's the problem? This law is not meant to touch you if you really aren't interested in that.

Can they have a parade or march through the streets to bring awareness to not being allowed to be married? Can they protest in front of government buildings when they feel that the police are ignoring assault cases with gay victims? Can they protest a law that prevents them from "spreading propaganda?"

Yes, there are some things that are not allowed to say for anyone (not only for gays). Like what was written in that other guy's post before mine you've just deleted (or not you, doesn't matter).
Of course, profanity, insults and vowing to violence are much different from gay propaganda.
But as you see, there's no such thing as total freedom of speech in any country.

Profanity and insults are allowed here. In fact we can flip off a police officer here.
And I disagree with the degree to which the law cracks down on threatening speech. People say things like, "I'm going to kill you," without meaning it all the time.

I can't tell you how many times I have said this:

And do you really care if you may not say something that you never say (and never will) anyway?

YES! A million times, yes.

This all gets away from my point, that the law in Russia is far different than the few state laws the WaPo found and used to call President Obama hypocritical. The article is even farther off base when you realize that Obama can't control state law.

I won't deny the US has a long way to go, but we haven't gone so far as to tell people they can't promote equal rights for homosexuals in public, where they can practice any form of political speech they like.

 

[Famine]

Yes, there are some things that are not allowed to say for anyone (not only for gays). Like what was written in that other guy's post before mine you've just deleted (or not you, doesn't matter).

GTPlanet isn't a country. GTPlanet is an opt-in private institution - we can set whatever rules we want because they only affect people who accept them voluntarily. Laws affect everyone in a nation whether they accept them or not - and, traditionally, countries that set very tight laws on expression are those that set very tight laws on emigration too.

Of course, profanity, insults and vowing to violence are much different from gay propaganda.

Yes. They exist.

But as you see, there's no such thing as total freedom of speech in any country.
And do you really care if you may not say something that you never say (and never will) anyway?

Yes.

Once you're banned from saying one thing, what's to prevent a ban on you saying something else? What's to prevent newspapers being banned from reporting anything negative about government or certain companies?

They probably do, but that's the problem of their own stupidity (if you think that the "anti-gay law" is the only idiotic Russian law you're wrong).
But if you understand that homo/heterosexuality is not a choice, you probably won't be telling anyone to change his/her sexual orientation, will you? So what's the problem?

Not being allowed to say it. People are entitled to be morons. Oh, and of course not being allowed to even have the discussion to enlighten the morons.

Not to mention that you're apparently allowed to promote heterosexuality - which is fundamentally discriminatory.

Scotland has legalized gay marriage just recently, what do you expect from Russia with local people's mindset then?

Are Russians stupider than Scots? If not, why would I expect less from them?

Yes we have.
In your country, you probably won't ask Muslim immigrants because they are guests and must obey the laws and respect the traditions of the country they are in.
But not in mine. Because those republics are their native land.

What does this have to do with anything?

Of course they get. But gays aren't allowed because of higher risks (sure there is a screening program, but... Hell, I don't know exactly why, will try to find out later).

[Citation needed]

If there's a screening program and they still don't allow homosexual sperm/blood donation, it's got nothing to do with risk or actual infection - just discrimination.

And drug addicts are banned from it, too. So this is discrimination of drug addicts from now on?

You remember that day at school when you chose to be straight, but those kids who were born as drug addicts were too blazed to pick? No, me neither.

But then if there's a proper screening program, they don't need to ban drug addicts either.

No, my opinion is not based on any propaganda. I think this is you who's spouting Western propaganda.

Yes, damn those Westerners who want governments that represent everyone equally without discrimination to treat everyone equally without discrimination spouting their evil propaganda.

 

[Liquid]

If it hasn't already been brought up, England captain Casey Stoney has come out and admitted she's gay.

And lambasted FIFA for awarding World Cups to countries with stone age homosexuality laws.

 

[Rage Racer]

Can they have a parade or march through the streets to bring awareness to not being allowed to be married?

Parades are usually carried out by the victors. I can't remember a battle won by gays.

Can they protest in front of government buildings when they feel that the police are ignoring assault cases with gay victims?

Any protest must be arranged with the authorities. But LGBT communities never get the permission (the problem is that what the media and the officials call "gay prides" are mostly just protest actions).
If cops ignore a crime, the victim should report it to the attorney, but instead of that, they report it to Western journalists. Which makes it questionable if it really happened...

A "cop ignorance" reminder: in Moscow, on December, 6, 2010, a Russian football fan was murdered by a group of Caucasians, who were arrested but released next day. This caused a lot of protests and rioting across the whole country. What, is this discrimination against football fans? No, the cops were just bribed. Corruption harms everyone (not only gays, but gays too) and it goes far beyond the "gay rights problem".

Can they protest a law that prevents them from "spreading propaganda?"

Ah, we don't let them spread their propaganda, that's so bad. I thought it doesn't exist...

Profanity and insults are allowed here. In fact we can flip off a police officer here.
And I disagree with the degree to which the law cracks down on threatening speech. People say things like, "I'm going to kill you," without meaning it all the time.

Oh, America, the land of freedom. Okay, it's legal there. Glad for you.
But here in RF, if you try insulting a cop, you'll be arrested and fined at best. At worst, you may be beaten up hard by that cop and it'll be hard to prove that his actions were against the law. Which also reminds that you don't need to be gay to get abused by the police.

YES! A million times, yes.

Well, if you think cancelling that "anti-gay" law will bring freedom of speech to Russia, you are sooo wrong. There are many other things you're not allowed to say here.
Calling to dethrone the current government will get you in prison (up to 5 years). Just saying "Putin, go away!" at public may be treated like this.
Propaganda of ethinic hatred or extremism - the famous "article 282" (the amount of people imprisoned under it is probably more than the amount of gays in the whole country).
Insulting religious beliefs is punishable, too. Saying "There's no God" probably won't get you in prison, but something a little worse may do. They're discriminating atheists!!!11
Web sites containing improper materials (drug propaganda, suicide information, extremism) are locked. Remember that "Innocence of Muslims" movie? I cannot watch it, because it's locked.
And now, after that shooting in a Moscow school, those morons in Duma think that kids are getting violent because of video games. So now they're talking about banning violent games. Idiotism.
As you see, if you want a total freedom of speech, then Russia is the wrong country for you to live in.

Once you're banned from saying one thing, what's to prevent a ban on you saying something else? What's to prevent newspapers being banned from reporting anything negative about government or certain companies?

^See above.
However, newspapers actually criticize the government and the laws. On TV and radio, I've seen and heard a lot of discussions just like we have here.
The newspapers even publish jokes like "Russia's main problems are: gays, blashphemers, Navalny and American child adopters."

Oh, and of course not being allowed to even have the discussion to enlighten the morons.

No, I guess this is allowed if I have seen such discussions on TV.

Not to mention that you're apparently allowed to promote heterosexuality - which is fundamentally discriminatory.

Oh, that's impressive - there's so much straight propaganda around, but the gays still keep their loyalty!

Are Russians stupider than Scots? If not, why would I expect less from them?

In terms of LGBT tolerance, they probably are.
What will happen if the Duma suddenly legalizes gay marriage? Massive protests and even riots of millions of straight people across the whole country, that's what.
You can't force people to be tolerant.

What does this have to do with anything?

Can you imagine gay marriage legal in a Muslim country (say, Egypt or even the secular state Turkey)?

[Citation needed]

OK, I'll try to learn more about it.

Yes, damn those Westerners who want governments that represent everyone equally without discrimination to treat everyone equally without discrimination spouting their evil propaganda.

The Western media just keeps throwing feces at RF at the background of the Olympics.
Some things they say are true, but the most is exaggerated too much. They don't even hesitate comparing Russia with Nazi Germany.

P.S.
Please, don't associate Russia with homophobia.
Associate it with corruption.

 

[Dotini]

Yes, damn those Westerners who want governments that represent everyone equally without discrimination to treat everyone equally without discrimination spouting their evil propaganda.

It is amusing to note certain historical tendencies among peoples.

For instance, not so long after Europe tumbled to Christianity, it was busy proselytizing, converting and colonizing the whole world at the point of sword and cannon.

More recently, having locked the Royals in the Tower, put the Church in its place and embraced democracy and capitalism, we vigorously, even forcibly export our state-of-the-art system to all the poor, benighted and unwashed in the farthest mountains, deserts and forests.

Finally, we've had our "come-to-Jesus" moment with gay liberation - and we want it instantly accepted everywhere in the world. Some less fortunate societies are struggling with falling populations, civil war, patriarchy and primogeniture. Sometimes the last they need are the blessings of our recurrent theophanies.

 

[Liquid]

Please, don't associate Russia with homophobia.

Repeal the anti-gay laws and we'll consider it.

Associate it with corruption.

We already do.

 

[Rage Racer]

Repeal the anti-gay laws and we'll consider it.
We already do.

Corruption is a lot worse and more dangerous than homophobia.
Corruption actually kills people. Homophobia rarely does. And when it does, it's for gays only.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Not sure if this has been mentioned here yet, but apparently Channel 4 are putting out this advert...



I'm not offended by it particularly in any way, I'm just wondering if people see it as a positive expression or not.

 

[Carbonox]

Corruption is a lot worse and more dangerous than homophobia.
Corruption actually kills people. Homophobia rarely does. And when it does, it's for gays only.

Violence in the name of Islam kills people too, but since it's for infidels only, who cares?

 

[Joel]

Corruption is a lot worse and more dangerous than homophobia.
Corruption actually kills people. Homophobia rarely does. And when it does, it's for gays only.

Corruption is a lot worse than anti semitism, and when it kills people it's Jews only.

Disgusting.

 

[Liquid]

Corruption actually kills people. Homophobia rarely does. And when it does, it's for gays only.

Even if this was found to be true, it's not the point. Homophobia shouldn't exist at all, let alone lead to people dying, no matter how few.

 

[TheCracker]

Corruption is a lot worse and more dangerous than homophobia.

 

[Touring Mars]

Not sure if this has been mentioned here yet, but apparently Channel 4 are putting out this advert...

I'm not offended by it particularly in any way, I'm just wondering if people see it as a positive expression or not.

The Guardian have also changed the header on their mainpage to this:

 

[Danny]

Parades are usually carried out by the victors. I can't remember a battle won by gays.

Corruption actually kills people. Homophobia rarely does. And when it does, it's for gays only.

...Are you for real?

 

[Denur]

Corruption is a lot worse and more dangerous than homophobia.
Corruption actually kills people. Homophobia rarely does. And when it does, it's for gays only.

You may want to rephrase that. Now it seems like you don't care if gays are killed. You surely can't be that big an ashole.