The " I want a livery editor" thread.

[YayoiGT2]

And Forza's custom liveries are also not quite as crisp in-game as the default race car liveries in either FM4 or GT5, so there's that too.

 

[Imari]

Everything I've said is correct. There is simply no memory to store livery textures and the PS3's RSX struggles enough with fill rate to be able to apply them. To say someone's bespoke texture would replace the texture of a car is simply laughable. 👎 As for "no poly's", clearly you haven't seen nor played any Forza game to understand how decals are created / how they scale to any size. 👎

There are racecars in GT. Those racecars have liveries. An image file of a livery created by a user can be the same size as a livery created by PD, if that's what PD designs the livery editor to do.

If you can have a race of 16 racecars with liveries in GT (you can), you could have a race of 16 user created liveries on the same memory budget.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

But on a serious nature, I saw a Nazi themed emblem, I reported it, because that's not on...

Call of Duty... I don't think they do much to hackers/cheaters/offensive players.


GT5... Everyone's been banned! Well, not everyone, but almost everyone. And, all of that, because of some cars?


The difference between the main companies making games with high levels of customization (Treyarch, Turn 10, Polyphony Digital, and a few others) is how liberal they are. Treyarch, let's be honest, could care less about the human rights of its players, which is why no one gets banned, even for posting hateful, racist playercards. Turn 10, well, they're not exactly liberal, but you can get away with far more than PD will let you get away with.



Question is, do you want GT6 to be a game with Nazi banners, dolphins with incorrect (biologically speaking) genitalia, or the game that does without? Or, do you want another GT5-ban fiasco? Or, a set number of pre-made liveries?



That's where things get complicated.

If you can have a race of 16 racecars with liveries in GT (you can), you could have a race of 16 user created liveries on the same memory budget.

Isn't it possible to just save it as a code? Several race cars have paintable rims... You can have 16 of those cars, each with multi-coloured rims and various other things on track at once.

 

[Imari]

Isn't it possible to just save it as a code? Several race cars have paintable rims... You can have 16 of those cars, each with multi-coloured rims and various other things on track at once.

For a mono-coloured car, or mono-coloured rims or something then yes you could just have a colour code. It'd be much smaller than a body coloured image file. Even something like the Veyron that is two-part colours probably, if you were clever about it.

But for something like the GT500 cars? I can't see it being more efficient to describe the car in terms of the shapes on the surface and what colours fill them than a simple image file mapped to the surface.

 

[Kobooi]

That's quickly solved with an option "I chose to be easily offended".

By turning it on you do not see liveries of other people's cars, in fact all cars are gray with standard rims, all microphones are muted, skid marks are not shown (someone could make a skid mark in the shape of a penis, a la Jeremy Clarkson), trucks are displayed as Priuses, and everybody drives under U.N. flag and finishes first and wins.

And when turning it off, you see cool liveries and an occasional dolphin penis that looks like a Camaro anyway, or a nazi flag on one of the premium WWII army vehicles.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

For a mono-coloured car, or mono-coloured rims or something then yes you could just have a colour code. It'd be much smaller than a body coloured image file. Even something like the Veyron that is two-part colours probably, if you were clever about it.

But for something like the GT500 cars? I can't see it being more efficient to describe the car in terms of the shapes on the surface and what colours fill them than a simple image file mapped to the surface.

Valid points. 👍

That's quickly solved with an option "I chose to be easily offended". By turning it on you do not see liveries of other people's cars, in fact all cars are gray with standard rims, all microphones are muted, skid marks are not shown (someone could make a skid mark in the shape of a penis, a la Jeremy Clarkson), trucks are displayed as Priuses, and everybody drives under U.N. flag and finishes first and wins.

Overkill. You took a hyperbole, and went infinitely "too far" with it.

No one's offended by the Canadian flag. No one's offended by trucks... And no one will beat me.


Edit: On a relevant note, I remember playing Halo when the neighbour's kids came over. They were like 5 and 7 at the time, so I couldn't allow them to watch the Flood infect the ODSTs. I missed an awesome cutscene. I refuse to miss an awesome race for the same reason.

 

[Kobooi]

No one's offended by trucks...

Welcome to Belgium, where trucks and 4x4s get their tires slashed just because they are trucks and 4x4s. Where even the government is offended by them and taxes them to death.

You just proved my point I think. What offends you is not the same as what offends the next person.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

You just proved my point I think. What offends you is not the same as what offends the next person.

So, perhaps we should stick to things that almost no one can find offensive?

I see nothing wrong with this.

 

[KingSakery]

Even if you could create a huge genitalia, who cares ??
Report that person and just laugh at him/her. Either he is in puberty or still is (aged 20+).

CoD for example: I don´t see those Tags that common, but they are still there. CoD is a kiddy game so take this out as an example.

If the livery editor is in Gt6 the majority will be racing orientated liveries and not offending ones (but in the beginning you´ll probably find them more often than later on.).

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

If the livery editor is in Gt6 the majority will be racing orientated liveries and not offending ones (but in the beginning you´ll probably find them more often than later on.).

Hey Sak.


Interesting you say "majority" because that doesn't mean *all.*


While I can stand genuinely humourous liveries (see also: Top Gear,) replicas, rust-bucket Hondas and funny things, the last thing I want to see is some poor sport, who, judging by maturity, will be driving backwards... in a car with a few choice words like ":censored:missile" or ":censored:erlauncher," ruining races.


You and I have had enough fun races, Sak, to know that idiots driving backwards with unwanted painted things on their cars would take away from the fun.

 

[Samus]

There almost certainly won't be a livery editor (in the way FM does it). There's just not enough graphics memory to load and apply bespoke textures, nor can the RSX handle the additional polys that may comprise any kind of decal.

You may be able to change license plate numbers, car numbers, that kind of thing though.

Maybe if GT6 runs at 30fps instead of 60fps there could be a livery editor, but don't hold your breath.

Kaz said it's "technically possible".

 

[Kobooi]

So, perhaps we should stick to things that almost no one finds offensive.

No. We should stick to people having the option to block things that they find offensive.

 

[KingSakery]

Before I joined GTplanet I was racing in open-lobbies and I rarely saw those kind of trolls.
Mainly because I searched for clean lobbies and there are very few of them in those lobbies.
After I joined here I only raced in organized leagues or with friends
=> apart from dirty Nascar or some sort of games we made up all was clean.

But if you limit the editor you can just leave it off (because if you limit it you can´t do replicas).
Stupidity is always there but the "fun" will be over quite fast.

 

[LancerEvo7]

By the way Mel, very very few people actually got banned during that. And it wasn't for cars.

 

[IceMan PJN]

I've not read all of the seven-hundred replies, but I saw some talk about inappropriate, offensive imagery like swastikas and genitals. People seem to enjoy blowing things way out of proportion and making them out to be an epidemic. The truth is that we simply do not have this problem in Forza. If someone puts something inappropriate up on their Storefront, it gets reported by players and that player gets their content removed, and if they continue to offend they might get banned. What players run during races would be a bit trickier, but players can save replays of their races as evidence when reporting offensive players.

I've put hundreds of hours into each Forza game (not hundreds collectively, but hundreds apiece) and very rarely saw anything that would be viewed as offensive, and those things tended to end up moderated. The whole thing is technically an issue but a trivial one. If the GT community would somehow end up with wangs on the side of half of players' cars, that just reflects poorly of the GT community because the FM community isn't so horribly plagued by this.

 

[Tornado]

I've still never seen the dreaded penis livery; and even if people were working to purposely undermine the benefits of a livery editor would be trivial for PD to stop them ("Show Friend's Liveries Only Y/N," "Block *PSN ID*'s Livery Y/N" and "Report *PSN ID*'s Livery Y/N").

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

I've still never seen the dreaded penis livery; and even if people were working to purposely undermine the benefits of a livery editor would be trivial for PD to stop them ("Show Friend's Liveries Only Y/N," "Block *PSN ID*'s Livery Y/N" and "Report *PSN ID*'s Livery Y/N").

Seems simple enough and there inlies the rub, PD do things there way. For all we know, the ability to "paint" RM and TC cars and change the number is what PD already consider a livery editor. Personally, I would like racing stripes, GT logo, basic shapes and numbers similar to what NASCAR games and NFS Pro Street had. Simple, tasteful, yet personal. Perhaps the ability to add manufacturer logos as well.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Seems simple enough and there inlies the rub, PD do things there way. For all we know, the ability to "paint" RM and TC cars and change the number is what PD already consider a livery editor. Personally, I would like racing stripes, GT logo, basic shapes and numbers similar to what NASCAR games and NFS Pro Street had. Simple, tasteful, yet personal. Perhaps the ability to add manufacturer logos as well.

Other than the true diehards, I think the vast majority of people would be happy with this. A constantly expanding litany of stock graphics through DLC would suit me fine along with the requisite stripes, numbers and possibly a mandatory GT6 logo.

 

[HKS racer]

Everything I've said is correct. There is simply no memory to store livery textures and the PS3's RSX struggles enough with fill rate to be able to apply them. To say someone's bespoke texture would replace the texture of a car is simply laughable. 👎 As for "no poly's", clearly you haven't seen nor played any Forza game to understand how decals are created / how they scale to any size. 👎

Bad smelling bovine stuff.

Enough said.

 

[stucar17]

So LordvonPS3, would or could predetermined liveries (like on GRID) work?

I cant see why it wouldnt, if codies could make it happen (albeit simplistically) surely PD can make it work.....

 

[amar212]

There almost certainly won't be a livery editor (in the way FM does it). There's just not enough graphics memory to load and apply bespoke textures, nor can the RSX handle the additional polys that may comprise any kind of decal.

You may be able to change license plate numbers, car numbers, that kind of thing though.

Maybe if GT6 runs at 30fps instead of 60fps there could be a livery editor, but don't hold your breath.

Everything I've said is correct. There is simply no memory to store livery textures and the PS3's RSX struggles enough with fill rate to be able to apply them. To say someone's bespoke texture would replace the texture of a car is simply laughable. 👎 As for "no poly's", clearly you haven't seen nor played any Forza game to understand how decals are created / how they scale to any size. 👎

You are speaking utter nonsense.

Once you "save" some design within "Livery Editor" in Forza (or in other games), it becomes a simple bitmap texture. It is not complex vector-like layer anywhere within the game except in the very working environment of Livery Editor where game uses separately-stored *Layer file* in real-time where you are actually *editing* something. Once saved, it again *becomes* a simple botmap-texture. Not polygon, or whatever nonsense you are implying.

Nothing regarding Liveries (as perceived because of Forza's system) influence either loading, graphical processes or speed of frame refresh of the game. Is something like "livery editor" part of the game or not is purely a design-choice by game-designers as feature, not something that would anyhow influence actual real-time performance during gameplay (at least not in quantities important for execution, because flattened bitmap textures are nothing compared to real-time rendering behemots such as working windshield wipers with gravity-afected raindrops, real-time global illumination for particles or procedural visual damage, just to name few).

But just continue to be arrogant, it is funny to read you are so stubborn regarding something you know nothing about.

 

[Spagetti69]

You are speaking utter nonsense.
.

Ouch.

Had a go at your time last night mate. 8^). Pretty damn quick.

 

[lbpomg95]

Everything I've said is correct. There is simply no memory to store livery textures and the PS3's RSX struggles enough with fill rate to be able to apply them. To say someone's bespoke texture would replace the texture of a car is simply laughable. 👎 As for "no poly's", clearly you haven't seen nor played any Forza game to understand how decals are created / how they scale to any size. 👎

This doesn't make sense to me. At all. Take Midnight Club Los Angeles as an example - it has a gigantic livery editor, the graphics aren't exactly terrible and it works on PS3. As does Juiced 2, the GRID games, NFS games and other games with some form of custom liveries.

I fail to see how a simple livery editor would be physically impossible to implement due to sytem liimits, especially when a large number of cars in GT5 have liveries anyway, albeit not custom user made liveries, but still. If PD can make the liveries for the GT500 NSXs, why can't we remove the livery and add some sponsors and simple stripes?

 

[Nikked]

Just had a thought...


2 tier Livery system.


First tier: Your "street" or non-race modded cars, where a few sponsor decals can be applied, and the drivers name and racing number applied to the window.

Second tier: Race modded cars, that allow full house custom liveries, this includes layers of vinyls, racing numbers on panels, interior cage colours etc...


Of course, that would only work if you race mod all cars...(or get them close to that level)


I see it as a way of limiting graphical nonsense, as I can't see everyone going to a race mod just to do a dumb livery....

 

[Metfanant]

There almost certainly won't be a livery editor (in the way FM does it). There's just not enough graphics memory to load and apply bespoke textures, nor can the RSX handle the additional polys that may comprise any kind of decal.

You may be able to change license plate numbers, car numbers, that kind of thing though.

Maybe if GT6 runs at 30fps instead of 60fps there could be a livery editor, but don't hold your breath.

you are COMPLETELY wrong...couldn't be more wrong actually. a livery is not going to take up ANY more memory than the car's normal paint..its a simple texture that is placed over the 3d model of the car...

there will be ZERO additions to the poly count...ZERO

Everything I've said is correct. There is simply no memory to store livery textures and the PS3's RSX struggles enough with fill rate to be able to apply them. To say someone's bespoke texture would replace the texture of a car is simply laughable. 👎 As for "no poly's", clearly you haven't seen nor played any Forza game to understand how decals are created / how they scale to any size. 👎

it is exactly that...instead of the texture that is the car's paint you see the livery...nothing extra to it...

it would work exactly like any race car already in GT5...if those cars can have liveries...then ANY car can..no special modeling needs to be done, no extra stess on the RSX...it would just be loaded up like any other asset would...

Better GPU. 512MB of unified memory.

irrelevant here...

So LordvonPS3, would or could predetermined liveries (like on GRID) work?

I cant see why it wouldnt, if codies could make it happen (albeit simplistically) surely PD can make it work.....

the pre-determined liveries would work just fine...LordvonPS3 is completely wrong here...it truly would make no difference



Also, those worrying about "offensive liveries" have obviously not spent much time exploring Forza IMO...offensive stuff is taken care of quite quickly and easily reported...there are serious (in game) consequences for those using offensive liveries, or selling them in their storefronts...

 

[YukinoSuzuka]

How on earth is it possible that GT6 & PS3 won't have enough space to store a simple bitmap livery file on a console with BR technology and the Xbox with FM4 is able to do the same trick with the lower DVD-techn. ?

It's just painting on a 3D car that becomes a 2D file/template. So in the most dramatic way it costs you 25 to 40kB for each livery you make. Very challenging for the PS3, isn't it

I still believe in a livery editor, but more as a Livery-modification-option. Good enough to me, the more, the worse for your gameplay (And nobody is online to race with you because they're painting and being creative). *lame*

 

[-Cheezman-]

played any Forza game to understand how decals are created / how they scale to any size. 👎

They are vectors when in the livery editor; then are rasterized. Similar to how you would work with vectors in Illistrator, then would convert them to a JPEG for use on a website.

Learn something:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_graphics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raster_graphics

Clearly you don't know a single thing about digital graphics.

 

[Tornado]

You can even see how they are rasterized in FM4, because they aren't as sharply defined in the actual races as they are outside of them; and they don't have the same texture resolution on every body panel on some cars.

How on earth is it possible that GT6 & PS3 won't have enough space to store a simple bitmap livery file on a console with BR technology and the Xbox with FM4 is able to do the same trick with the lower DVD-techn. ?

Optical disc space has nothing to do with it. Liveries aren't saved to them.

 

[Kent]

To try and blame hardware, firmware, or software for the lack of an editor is utter stupidity.

Xbox, the first Xbox, with Forza 1 featured a livery editor. Hell, Armored Core on the PS1 had custom emblems for mechs.

There is no excuse for the lack of an editor, unless of course you take into consideration my post in the complaints thread.

 

[amar212]

How on earth is it possible that GT6 & PS3 won't have enough space to store a simple bitmap livery file on a console with BR technology and the Xbox with FM4 is able to do the same trick with the lower DVD-techn. ?

Not having "Livery Editor" as an feature in Gran Turismo series has nothing to do with either media game is delivered on, strength of hardware or potential of developer to make it.

It is 100% deliberate design-decision will some game (GT in this case) include such functionality or not. And if yes, under which conditions and in which shape.

As explained (argued?) so many times in this thread, the decision to NOT HAVE "livery Editor" in the *shape* as seen in Forza series (or other games) is almost certainly a pure deliberate choice by Polyphony Digital.

We can all argue about whatever reasoning we subjectively and personally can conceive regarding that decision: we can explain to others and ourselves "what we would love to have...", "what we think..", "what is needed...", "what is imperative...", "what is mandatory..." - but all of that means nothing if some particular game-designer decided it will not allow the functionality of creating a full-scope user-made liveries for the cars.

And from what I personally and subjectively can understand strictly looking back to philosophy of GT games in past 15 years, any type of functionality of user-created graphical shapes that would be applied to cars just does not fit into such philosophy. If the philosophy changes - and when it changes, if ever - than the "livery editor" in some form, as seen appropriate by PD - will probably become a part of some future GT game (maybe even GT6, we can't know).