The infamous ultimate supercar thread.

[Philly]

Hybrid?

Twincharged?

Dual Clutch?

Three brand new technologies, of which none have been combined on an upstart project? Yikes...

I agree with Brad. Sup, Doug?

The way VWVortex did their threads was they had a series of polls where the members vote on drive setup, body style and engine configuration and things. But I'm sure that new thread YSSMAN made should turn out pretty cool.

 

[Eric.]

Considering that you are ignoring most of my serious questions, I'll be entirely blunt with this post...

The car you are wanting to build is basically on the same scale of the Veyron in terms of speed, power (presumably), and engine complexity. Agreed?

Volkswagen Auto Group funded that, obviously. Those cars are selling for over $1 million each. Bugatti stayed in the red even after several of the cars had sold, though I don't know how that stands today. Obviously you wouldn't get as many sales without the hype, marketing, and name.

Financially it was a nightmare for VW, and I just don't see how a handful of people are going to be able to get the same thing done.

Quick comparison here:

Veyron:
W16, 8L
Quad-turbo
DSG, AWD

Yours:
V12 (custom) ~5.4L
Twin-twincharged(?) Assuming this means two turbos and two superchargers, since you said two twinchargers earlier
Dual-clutch, RWD(?)
Hybrid (note that even hybrids only go ~45mph at the most on just battery power)
Direct Injection (not sure if the Veyron used it - doubtful)

Looks like an expensive nightmare to me.

 

[opendriver]

The biggest things that come to mind when doing something of this scale are money, manpower, and experience. Money being the biggest factor here seeing that if you have no money, you have no business. A line of credit is only going to take you so far before you look elsewhere for money. Investors are not going to come to you.

As for manpower, you are going to need people from a verity of backgrounds. I dont know the specifics, but its a lot of work to design a chassis+shell combo.

Maybe you be looking at this as a start-up business before you get into your ideas.

 

[mPWRD]

@Philly - all the technologies have been used before, and all will most likely be cheaper down the road. I am a bit iffy on the hybrid thing... that might be the part i cut out... would save a lot of money.
Dual Clutch? that's everywhere. Audi DSG, BMW DCT, Nissan GT-R, hell, chrysler has one.
Twinchargers - a bit more rare, but they have been used. Two notable applications - VW Golf (weird, i know) and Zenvo ST1 (an example of a small company which started early)
direct injection is everywhere now... shouldn't be that hard to implement... i've done a rudimentary system on one of my bmw sixes...

A cost comparison with the Veyron -
1. I won't spend as much time, which automatically drops things like salary costs and facilities and things like that. Cheaper.
2. The engine is nowhere near as complex. A W16 is way harder to put together than a V-12. And, i just might use the BMW V12 which they already make (which is similar to what i was designing). Cheaper.
3. The transmission, again, will be sourced from somewhere else and beefed up a little to take all the torque that this will produce. Cheaper.
4. The drivetrain involves a custom driveshaft, custom axles, and a custom steering rack. The car will be rear wheel drive, though, which eliminates some of the weight and costs. ~same...
5. The chassis will be a carbon fiber monocoque with a few aluminum supports. This will be the most expensive part of the build, but nowhere near that of the Veyron. Cheaper.
6. The interior will be nowhere as fancy as that of the Veyron. You have any idea how much that leather costs? It's ridiculous. This interior is a simpler affair, with more supportive pseudo-race seats and screens instead of fancy leather and woven aluminum that is the Veyron's interior. It will be quite comfortable, though, but cheaper.
7. I will have to spend a bit on demonstrations, a little bit of marketing, etc.

Edit:
8. I plan to build three prototypes (no longer 2). One will be a shell for shows and aero testing. Facilities are yet to be found. One working model will just be thrashed for performance's sake. It will be used to come up with final settings for the production versions and for original numbers such as 0-60, 1/4 mile, etc. It will also be used for customer test drives and demonstrations. The third one will be the crash one. It will also be a shell (unless you need an engine?).

So raising the money will be difficult, but nevertheless doable. I might be forgetting a couple things in here, and please notify me if I am.

 

[Eric.]

Testing, testing, testing.

Testing for performance, testing for crash safety, and testing for reliability.

 

[mPWRD]

Look above. And keep the questions coming.

 

[Eric.]

Last one will require an engine.

Edit: And you'll have to crash a handful of them. They can't just do a frontal test, then sides, etc.

 

[Leonidae]

Don't beat the man down even if he has outlandish ideas. Lack of ideas is exactly why the big three are fighting for their existence at the moment. building a budget supercar isn't that expensive, as long as one skips the lastest technology that hasn't been perfected yet ( yes, I'm talking of DSG and mating a hybrid technology with supercar performance ). Rest of the stuff this fellow has planned can be done, if he manages to get enough money for it. He's not even going to kick it on the move until five years from now, and as enthusiasts, you should be supporting him and not hitting his ideas and dreams down with a baseball bat..

 

[mPWRD]

My friend, you are amazing. And i'm kicking off the hybrid temporarily to cut costs. But down the road, it just might show up...

 

[Eric.]

Can I throw one really absurd suggestion in here? Pretty please? Stick a heavy duty diesel from one of the Big Three's heavy duty pickups in there. There's your power, torque, and fuel economy.

 

[Leonidae]

*cough* VW touareg V10 Tdi > those

 

[mPWRD]

You know, i was thinking about diesel. But it would require seriously beefy components and a steel block. Along with torque (not much power) and some fuel economy, you get a LOT more weight... i hope that the vds will boost the fuel economy a bit. Turbos help as well... and the diesels in the heavy duty pickups are large, loud, and don't make a very pretty noise. The sound that comes out of those modified Bimmer six-pots? heavenly. Imagine two together.... OOOHHH!

 

[Eric.]

*cough* VW touareg V10 Tdi > those

Yeah, but will it hold up to all of the stress that the American ones do (800hp, 1200lb-ft without anything truly serious done to them).

 

[mPWRD]

w00t over 100 posts... yeah right.

Anyway, VW is really finicky about selling their engine technology. The only people I know who have used VW engines are Gumpert. and that's because Roland Gumpert was head of Audi motorsport for 25 years... so yeah right. They aren't even using a diesel in the r8 (they might) so why would they want a competitor? Besides, diesel is out of the running.

 

[Leonidae]

unknown. but it does pass emissions with green flag.

 

[opendriver]

ISUZU 6.6L FTW

That plus a 6 speed would give you some good numbers

 

[Eric.]

You know, i was thinking about diesel. But it would require seriously beefy components and a steel block. Along with torque (not much power) and some fuel economy, you get a LOT more weight... i hope that the vds will boost the fuel economy a bit. Turbos help as well... and the diesels in the heavy duty pickups are large, loud, and don't make a very pretty noise. The sound that comes out of those modified Bimmer six-pots? heavenly. Imagine two together.... OOOHHH!

I disagree. You're gonna need just as strong components with your dual twincharger setup...I would definitely be interested in a diesel supercar making the sort of power and torque that they do with the trucks (like I posted earlier, 800hp and 1200lb-ft or so). Who cares if it sounds like a semi (good thing in my opinion!)? The hard part there will just be making them meet emissions. Maybe you could have the ECU switchable to the different mappings that would still make the stock power and stuff...Or offer it as optional but not street legal. Who knows.

Yeah, that's another thing...your engine is gonna have to meet emissions.

 

[mPWRD]

It will. If BMW's base 6.0 meets emissions, this should as well. Another thing - the truck engines are built for low-end torque and towing power. The car's engine won't carry much weight, unlike a 2.5-ton truck. As i said earlier, the sheer torque produced by a diesel engine is disproportionate to what is needed. The twinchargers are completely variable. The only time you would have both them switched on is at full acceleration. My friend thinks he's come up with a program that will allow the computer to redirect air through a forced induction system at certain speeds... we'll see if he's just full of hot air or not. Strong components are one thing - my uncle and I built a carbon fiber/aluminum honeycomb "driveshaft" with a steel core... required 4 tons to even bend it. And it only weighed about 70 lbs. By comparison, a solid steel shaft, which would be required with a diesel engine, would weigh around... oh... 130? yeah. You don't need 1200 lb-ft. of torque to get you off the line.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

You know... The power plant that would make the most sense here has already been used in a supercar. The Koenigseggseggseggblahrgyegg.

That would be a Ford 4.6 with the DOHC heads. And the old-style 1993-1998 Mark VIII/Cobra block. And a good rotating assembly. 800hp reliably, perfectly refined, discussion over.

Also, RE: twincharger setup. Why, oh why did you even CONSIDER running centrifugal blowers AND turbochargers? A roots or twin screw blower and a pair of turbos would make infinitely more sense, with the centrifugal/turbo setup you'll have capability for 60psi boost up top and still have nothing down low.

EDIT: You don't need 1200 ft-lbs, true. But the vehicle will pull like a freight train at higher speeds with that sort of torque.

 

[Eric.]

But if geared correctly, every bit of that torque is useful at high speeds.

Refresh me, BMW's 6L is the V12? Just because that meets emissions isn't going to mean anything with your heavily modified custom V12.

And I still think twincharging isn't the best route here. With a smaller motor its good because you can have a bigger turbo and not worry about lag. I don't think the V12 is going to struggle with making boost or initial power. Its unnecessary complexity.

 

[mPWRD]

oh... you have a point. The thing is, centrifugal blowers sap the least amount of power from the engine. Roots and twin-screws sap at least 50-100 hp to produce the return. Which is slightly detrimental to the whole thing. And in case you didn't notice, I plan to use VGTs... variable geometry, which has vanes which are hydraulically controlled to eliminate lag. And plus, the setup would have turbos coming first, which would allow the supercharger to be relatively independent of the rpm level. At least i think. i have yet to actually try it. But you raise a good point.

 

[Tornado]

Would VTGs even be able to work in a twin charge system? As I understand it, twin charging is used so VTG doesn't have to be.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

All you'd really want to do is have a pair of turbos that would stay efficient at high RPM and not care about how soft it would be on the bottom, then add a Roots or twin screw with a clutch on the drive and a bypass. Roots spins up with the motor until the turbos come online and then shuts down.

EDIT: And yeah, what Toronado said. You don't use twincharging for more power, you use it to avoid any and all lag. Unless you've got one of those freak motors that likes holding up to 45+psi.

 

[Tornado]

^ That's how VW does it, essentially.

 

[mPWRD]

I do have to try that out... the twincharging thing worked at both low and high rpm... interesting idea glad i bought three engines...if i try it out on the six-cylinder engines it should work on 12, right?

and eric... what's your strategy for the emissions test?

 

[niky]

Are you designing VGT superchargers from the ground up, or using off-the-shelf?

One thing to point out here, Koenigsegg started using off the shelf-technology for his grounds-up supercar... as do most manufacturers who don't have a big budget.

If you're really serious about making this all work, I suggest reading this:

http://dpcars.net

As the site has basically a full build diary of what the guy did to build his own track car.

It's certainly not a supercar, but it's a hayabusa powered (soon to be powered by a V8-engine based on the Busa, built by another company) four-wheel drive trackster, with a full tub, CF body, completely custom suspension and differentials.

The amount of work that goes into a project this small is mind-boggling, to say the least. But read through it, and you'll get some ideas on what other programs besides CAD you'd need for the designing process, programs for calculating loads, parts strength, aerodynamics, etcetera... that's not to mention the software you'd need for modelling the engine and the stresses involved in designing the reciprocating assembly. Which this guy skipped by buying an engine (albeit an experimental one) off-the-shelf.

One thing to note: you can't just fuse two straight-sixes at the crank. You also have to redesign the head of one of the siamesed engines... swap around the intake and exhaust ports (lucky you if you can just turn the head around on the block) and design custom cams (ground from fresh billet) to run the valves (as the timing will be completely different with the head turned around). Simpler, maybe, to install the block backwards, but you'd still have to grind new cams to work the valves in reverse order... or something.

Of course, you could short-cut it and do it the way other "supercar-challenger" builders do it. Build a basic, crude, tube-frame racer, cover it in an exotic-looking fiberglass shell, stick a big V8 with turbos in the back and call it a day, but you will likely want to do it the way this guy did it.

 

[Tornado]

if i try it out on the six-cylinder engines it should work on 12, right?

If you buy a twin screw (or a roots if you want to save some money at the expense of efficiency) for the down low and a turbo for up top, yes.

and eric... what's your strategy for the emissions test?

Kit car certification is how I would do it.

 

[mPWRD]

Going from the top down -

Oh god no... of course i'm buying them... no one aside from porsche and garrett have managed to build their own vg turbos (not superchargers)... i would be stupid to try to develop one.

i will use off-the-shelf parts for a lot, but remember, for things like the chassis, the body, and the drivetrain, you can't really compromise. you have to go custom.

nice website! sure will take a look at it from time to time

Trust me. Autodesk Inventor does CAD and more. It does stress tests, weight, thermal tests, everything short of driving the car around a track (and aero. i need a program for that)

And what makes you think I want the quick way out? Read some of my earlier posts... i am totally willing to put in as much time and effort as needed to make this work.

@Toronado - i was wondering about general stuff i try out on the I-6. it should work on the 12... and i totally forgot about kit car certification... that's a possibility. thanks.

 

[niky]

Read the edited portion of my post up-top.

You will also want to research on how the one or two companies that build Haybusa-based V8s actually get them to work. It's quite involved, and you will need to learn quite a bit about engine-building and flow before going into it.

It can be done, but you'll need specific software for cam designing (yes, it's commercially available) to make this work.

 

[mPWRD]

Yeah... i know about the whole fusing engines thing... i haven't tried it before... obviously i cant just put them together. I will have to change up the timing and possibly the timing order... and re-"wire" the whole thing for VDS. wonderful... and i think inventor also does cam design...

must log off for today. time to sleep around here... keep the suggestions coming!