The infamous ultimate supercar thread.

  • Thread starter mPWRD
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Part of the reason why the Veyron weighs so much is because it can be used everyday. This requires engineering compromises versus a simple top speed car; adds complexity and weight, and caused the delay of the whole thing. Of all the other cars that have attempted the top speed record, how many could be driven daily? In all climates? In serene comfort?

Point well taken. At least the part that involved honest-to-god facts. Do you count 6-10 mpg as usable everyday?

Edit: This car won't have 10 radiators or a fancy hydraulic spoiler. An air brake, sure, but not something at the complexity of the Veyron's. There will be no suspension that raises or lowers depending on the speed of the car. This all saves weight. Inside, there will be enough creature comforts to keep the driver/passenger comfortable (probax seats, nice speaker system, sound-deadening material) without letting them forget that they are driving something quite powerful.

Some direct comparisons:
8.0L W16 vs. 6.0L V12 (less displacement + vds = better fuel economy)
4 valves/cyl vs. 5 valves/cyl
4 turbos vs. 2 twinchargers
4WD vs. RWD
7-speed DCT vs. 6/7-speed DCT (ok no real difference there)
Carbon-ceramic brakes vs. Carbon-ceramic brakes

Think about it - it's kinda hard to find holes in your own dreams. You want it to be as perfect as possible, with all the greatest things it can do. That's why you need other people to find those holes for you. The reason that I look wishy-washy is because i'm fixing the holes in my plan to be cheaper, more effective, and better technically. So thanks for the feedback.
 
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Point well taken. At least the part that involved honest-to-god facts. Do you count 8 mpg as usable everyday?

You'll find a good bit of America finds it to be.

Single digits certainly don't scare me as long as I'm getting something out of it, ie towing or beating the living crap out of something quickish. That and if you can afford a Veyron, you can afford the fuel.
 
The BMW engine in the McLaren was created specifically for that purpose.

Created for a project headed by some lowly person nobody had ever heard of named Gordon Murray, no less. Yup. BMW's going to do that for just about anybody. :D

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And again: crate engine = nothing bad.

You get to concentrate on the part of the supercar equation that is really important... getting the chassis/handling/ride/aerodynamics perfect.

Once you've got a car working with a Ford Racing V8 or a Chevy crate or whatever the heck you can dig up, then you've got a working proof of concept to sell to interested parties, which means downpayments. Which means funds to actually build that dream engine of yours.
 
And anybody who doesn't discount an electric supercharger out of hand as a complete load really does need to throttle their engineering ambitions back a little.
 
And anybody who doesn't discount an electric supercharger out of hand as a complete load really does need to throttle their engineering ambitions back a little.

:dopey: I've only just stopped laughing about the fact that he considered them!
 
You mentioned you will sell in limited numbers and it DEPENDS on the customer as well. HAHAHA:dopey: so what...oh..I don't really like you....sorry, won't sell. NEXT! Ahhh...you are great...be my best friend! free sat nav for you! Sold!
What a ridiculous idea and proves your naiveness
Just a light hearted point, have you heared of Bristol cars? If not they make the 1000bhp+ Bristol Fighter T and the luxury Blenheim and are really quiet exclusive.
http://www.bristolcars.co.uk/index2.htm
If yo go to the official dealership in London, the only one in the world and the owner doesn't like you, you leave with your cash and no car.

I'm not advocating that as a business stratergy, that is way too far imo even for super exclusivity but it's not unheared of. Infact when Peter Wheeler sold the TVR Cerbera Speed 12, he went decided he wouldn't sell the car to anyone, he wanted to know what the new owners intentions would be with the car and what type of person they were and then he's consider selling it to them. Though the Speed 12 would have sold to someone eventually being the only running road version in existence and all.
 
I'm 34 years old.

Dabbled a bit in engineering. Know a bit about air induction, bit about exhaust, little bit of fluid flow theory...

... emissions, carbon can design, student of suspension design, ride, handling, DV planning, project management, vehicle electrical distribution...

... vehicle electronics & diagnostics, in-line testing, manufacturing, process development, quality systems, quality in process...

... bit about alloys, bit about FR materials, plastics, moulding, casting, engine dyno testing, cooling systems, braking systems...

... oh, bit about styling, bit about aero, why torque is not important, why power is, thermodynamics, camshaft design, turbo-charging, supercharging...

... fuel systems, fuel types, charge-cooling, water-injection, nitrous theory and why engines that use it need to be built differently, bit a bit of gas turbine work at uni, solenoid valve engines, catalytic engines, direct injection engines...

... road cars, race cars, track cars, drag cars, mid-engined car theory, front-drive, rear-drive, four-wheel drive - heh, even 'SUV's (whatever they are)...

... bit about vehicle history, bit about tyres, bit about safety, crash regs, legals and certification....

... closures, sealing, wind noise - oh, yeah, NVH in general, drive-by noise...

I've worked for Jaguar and Aston Martin, a few tier ones...

I took a composites course in my degree specifically so I knew how to construct a FR tub in the future. Then I bought and built a kit car made in that way... improved the design a bit on the way... flogged it, moved on...

... nothing special, really. Turned down working for IAD at uni. Turned down working for Reynard because the pay was... not good. I know people at Renault F1, McLaren F1, Williams, Prodrive... I chat to Dennis Palatov (his excellent website was mentioned earlier and you'd be a fool not to read it from start to finish) and have monitored the development of a number of 'web-public' vehicle projects with interest. I know a few race drivers of various skills, I've even punted the odd single seater race car around a circuit or two, in among the Astons, Jaguars, Lamborghinis, Bentleys (cough) and Porsches.

I'm fairly bright. I get on.

So far, I think you've written some numbers down and had some ideas. But I'm not sure if you understand what you're getting into here.

Being a vehicle engineer is (oftentimes) getting to the target using the minimum fuss. Sounds to me like you want to make an engine. Well, developing an engine from scratch is hard - not impossible - but certainly a drain on resources when you consider that (as other people have mentioned) there are plenty of easy ways of making 700, 800 or even 1200hp, all on pump fuel. I could build a reliable, everyday usable, all-alloy, twin-turbo 1000hp engine for less than £10,000. It would never pass a single government emissions regulation, but I could do it with a set of hand tools and off the shelf parts. I wouldn't necessarily need to do that... I could probably buy an off the shelf engine for £25k that might even pass emissions regs, but a 9+ litre supercharger big-block V8 would probably look a bit silly in a car weighing just over a tonne.

Okay, you want to develop an engine, fine. What about the chassis? This is an order of magnitude harder. To get the compromise right is extremely difficult - you might spend a year just figuring out what you want. And as soon as your car does more than 120mph (or 90mph, if you bought an original Audi TT) you'll need to have a very good understanding of aerodynamics. Oh, it's not impossible, but it gets exponentially more difficult the faster you go. Ask Koenigsegg - don't forget, their car tried to kill the Stig. Or Spyker - their first C8 Laviolette failed the UK SVA test so badly it had to be towed off the site. Let's try harder - Ascari - lots of race engineers, made a nice car no-one bought, moved out of the UK. Or Gumpert - ex-Audi motorsport chief, knows the odd thing about cars. Ask Lee Noble... or Gordon Murray.

I tell you what. If you can (given all the numbers you've quoted) explain to me what the single most important component (or system) on your car is, how you're going to design the rest of the car around it, calculate the capabilities of the car around it, test it and validate it... and thus know it to be the cornerstone of your machine and therefore the ultimate success or demise of your product around it... then I'll offer my advice and council for free. Lee Noble and Gordon Murray would say it faster than you can snap your fingers.

No-one else is allowed to guess publicly here, mPWRD, this is just for you. What is that component/system?
 
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BTW... M5Power..... mPWRD .... sounds similar huh.:crazy:

It was brought up before minolta's revelation...

I think everyone that's not serious about this project should stfu and gtfo...
If he's serious and can do this, more power to him. If he's destined for fail, let him fail. Then we can laugh at him, after he's failed. If your only purpose here is to piss him off with pointless questions and pessimism, why bother?

Maybe Muza was right... this place isn't worth visiting obsessively every day...
 
Just a light hearted point, have you heared of Bristol cars? If not they make the 1000bhp+ Bristol Fighter T and the luxury Blenheim and are really quiet exclusive.
http://www.bristolcars.co.uk/index2.htm
If yo go to the official dealership in London, the only one in the world and the owner doesn't like you, you leave with your cash and no car.

I'm not advocating that as a business stratergy, that is way too far imo even for super exclusivity but it's not unheared of. Infact when Peter Wheeler sold the TVR Cerbera Speed 12, he went decided he wouldn't sell the car to anyone, he wanted to know what the new owners intentions would be with the car and what type of person they were and then he's consider selling it to them. Though the Speed 12 would have sold to someone eventually being the only running road version in existence and all.

I have heard of Bristol. In fact, there is an interesting story i read somewhere about them as well.

But, Bristol is established. That gives them some leverage of some sort.
A new up-start company trying to do that? :crazy:
 
Second, when I say it depends on the customer, it's not who it is, but what he or she wants. If you can afford something like this (it's not going to be cheap), you will probably want to add your own personal touch. Customers will be selected on how passionate they are (I don't want any of these sitting in a collection, rotting away), but I WILL NOT choose depending on how much I like them. Where on earth did you get that from?

If you could read, you would have seen this.
 
If you could read, you would have seen this.
If you lose the attitude, you'll get on a lot better. This is an open forum and anybody can post their view whether you like it or not.
 
@80Y... I think so... go ahead.

@daan... yes, i know... sry... i'm kinda sick (flu) and fed-up with this.. The quote I used was actually a reply to TSLeng's earlier post... so he should have read it before replying.
 
Second, when I say it depends on the customer, it's not who it is, but what he or she wants. If you can afford something like this (it's not going to be cheap), you will probably want to add your own personal touch. Customers will be selected on how passionate they are (I don't want any of these sitting in a collection, rotting away), but I WILL NOT choose depending on how much I like them. Where on earth did you get that from?


Err..... does it mean not selling it to someone who will just keep it in a garage as a collection?

That my friend, is just what I am talking about. You clearly do not like the potential customer based on the reason that he will just keep it brand new and shiny in his garage therefore not going to sell it to him. That is what I understand from your post. Unless you are gonna change your statement again.

As a new kid on the block, the last thing you'd wanna do is to reduce your customer base. When you are famous and successful...then you can think of these I do not like you therefore not selling to you attitude.
 
I've read through the whole thread (fun read too BTW) and I've got a few things myself to add to this. I love the initiative that you have shown here first and foremost. Rather than shoot you down like a gatling gun I'll go this way and do some more enquiries first.

1. Rather than the what's your background on design etc., have you done any car modification in any area with any other car before?? I'm not talking about this current car you're using as a guinea pig, but have you worked on other motors, other cars??

2. Do you have a rough goal of what is required to do such speeds....ie. Cd Figures, power & torque estimates, weight, etc. and have you looked at others have attempted to do the same as what you're proposing??

I'll show you what someone here in Australia is doing, his name is Matt Thomas. Now this car he is building has been a proven 11.5sec car down the 1/4 mile in prototype form in Victoria. It's moving into production phase now and it's taken the guy just on 10yrs to get to this point. Just to show that it's not impossible but that motor in this car is his own, designed and built from scratch, unlike your concept which is basically a welding of two current motors. Look at the stats and the weight. ;)

Joss Supercars Website!

If you're going the two motor route, I'd also look at BRABUS believe it or not for inspiration. Why you ask?? Because they merged two Smart motors and created the worlds smallest production V6 (only 1.4L). ;)

Good luck anyway.
 
And, as an owner of one of the actual smallest production V6 cars, the 1.8 V6 MX-3, I'll dispute the term "production". You know, given that they made 10 examples, none of which were ever sold nor can even be driven on public roads in Germany.

And yes, I'm aware of the 1.6 V6 Lancer. Japanese market only and in very small numbers.
 
Whereas the 1.8 is as smooth as you like. You even have acceleration in 5th gear at 15mph. It won't set the world alight with speed and power (or even raw acceleration), but it's smoo-oo-oo-ooth :D
 
The 1.8 Lancer, on the other hand... lovely. Smooth. And the 200 hp 2.0 is great.

Unfortunately, Mitsubishi saw fit to mate these engines to their truly dreadful four-speed INVECs box. I ran a Lancer with an FTO swap for a day and dear lord was it slow... Sounded like heaven, though. If car manufacturers weren't such sissies, we ought to have had 2 liter V6s everywhere, by now.
 
OK....it may be right (all the more reason having me on board heheh) or wrong, but I think the main factor one has to look into before any of the other planning is the drivetrain. Where is the engine and where is the drive?

These are important as one then needs to look into building the chassis correctly to cope with certain forces (from drive wheels and engine weight).
This is where the Vectra VXR went wrong (that understeer on TopGear was pure comical). The chassis was not set up right because there was alot more power going to the wheels without any structural modifications - and this all came about because more power was added. Imagine what would come from a car when it was orininally designed to be a MR and then turned into an FR - or even an FF.

I didn't get this off google - I'm really not sure if it's right or wrong, but it's my opinion.

If it's right - BOOOYAH

if its wrong - I can learn quickly. Knowledge is something that can be gained, passion isn't.
 
Ok, I read the WHOLE thread... took a while... interesting to read... I'm not going to flame or even ask questions... All I'm going to say is good luck M.... Youre going to need it with this one... 👍 After reading that post of Famines friend I would have imagined you to stop right there... but I guess you have real passion for this... so lets sit back and see what happends here :D
 
OK....it may be right (all the more reason having me on board heheh) or wrong, but I think the main factor one has to look into before any of the other planning is the drivetrain. Where is the engine and where is the drive?

These are important as one then needs to look into building the chassis correctly to cope with certain forces (from drive wheels and engine weight).
This is where the Vectra VXR went wrong (that understeer on TopGear was pure comical). The chassis was not set up right because there was alot more power going to the wheels without any structural modifications - and this all came about because more power was added. Imagine what would come from a car when it was orininally designed to be a MR and then turned into an FR - or even an FF.

I didn't get this off google - I'm really not sure if it's right or wrong, but it's my opinion.

If it's right - BOOOYAH

if its wrong - I can learn quickly. Knowledge is something that can be gained, passion isn't.

The Vectra VXR was originally designed and touted as a 4WD Audi S4 challenger... yeah right. Then, they had to move the drive wheels to the front for some reason, I couldn't find why... but don't worry... i'm not willing to compromise on that. MR all the way.

Ok, I read the WHOLE thread... took a while... interesting to read... I'm not going to flame or even ask questions... All I'm going to say is good luck M.... Youre going to need it with this one... 👍 After reading that post of Famines friend I would have imagined you to stop right there... but I guess you have real passion for this... so lets sit back and see what happends here :D

You're right on all accounts. I am going to need some luck... I did think of quitting after Famine's friend's comments... and then I talked to a couple of people with experience (including Henrik Fisker) about it. They noticed my enthusiasm and passion (like you guys), commented on my schematics and plans, and told me to build up my knowledge base and experience through college and perhaps a job outside... we'll see. I really talked to most of them in brief except for two, one who works at Aston Martin and the other who works at Audi.
 
See what a poorly or wronly designed chassis can do? They designed it as a 4WD chassis because they worked out where the drive and the engine were and changed it to FWD and probably changed the engine (although the existing one does have some cahoonahs) .So did I get it right? (the question that is).

EDIT: mPWRD - You talked to Fisker?! How did you get in contact with him?
 
I go to school in the San Fransisco Bay Area, near Fisker's headquarters. He came by my school to give a guest lecture on aerodynamic design... pity I could only talk to him for about 5-6 minutes total...
 
I talked to the main designer, engineer, owner of the Joss Supercar - Australia's first true super car. We mostly talked about design...and then he signed my hat hahah.
 
I'm still waiting for your answers to my questions mPWRD, either they slipped your mind or you just can't provide the answers I require.

I'm not flaming you (yet) but I await your reply, sooner rather than later.

And, as an owner of one of the actual smallest production V6 cars, the 1.8 V6 MX-3

*cough* Eunos 30X *cough*

I actually like those motors. We had a Eunos for a couple of hours, needless to say that V6 revved to 8000rpm quite happily while frying the tyres with the handbrake on. :mischievous:
 
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