The war on ISIS.

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Liberal? Not in my worst nightmares. When I look around, I can see that liberal left-wing politicians are the ones causing this whole massive, nearly uncontrolled influx of immigrants from incompatible cultures. As long as they keep shoving multiculturalism down people's throats, I steer clear of them in the voting booth.
You do know that in Australia, the Liberal Party - Abbott, Hockey, Bishop, Pyne, Morrisom et al - are actually right-wing, right? It's one of our little idiosyncrasies; Liberal does not mean liberal, but right-wing.

And I fail to see how you can blame the previous government for the current situation. Their border protection policies might have been poor, but the bulk of asylum seekers arriving illegally were either Tamils from Sri Lanka or from south-east Asia.

But you're right - we can blame the Liberals. Just not the liberals. For example, look at George Brandis trying to change Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act. We had a rich, white, older conservative male trying to change legislation to redefine what is considered offensive. In doing so, there was no community consultation. Nobody from any other racial, ethnic, religious or socio-economic background was asked whether they thought those changes were needed, much less what changes would be appropriate.

That was a small hiccup, maybe, but look at the past week. We've had Abbott commit us to military action in Iraq and possibly Syria, the terror threat level upgraded, widespread raids across two cities and now an attack on police officers. Look at it from the perspective of the Muslim community - the threat level was upgraded with no reason given, the politicians are divided over rapid escalation from providing aid to military action in Iraq, the terror raids were carried out with a police media unit in attendance and wall-to-wall coverage across the nation (which will make it difficult for the suspects to get a fair trial) and nobody in the media - especially the conservative private media - has bothered to report on vandalism of mosques or threats and abuse directed at Muslims. And in the middle of it all, you have ISIL, who have a widespread and effective propaganda and social media presence, are led by a man who claims a direct bloodline to the original nomadic tribes that first spread Islam, and have been smart enough to question in their propaganda what threat Australia poses to Iraq and Syria and why we are getting involved.

At every step of the way, the government has done things that have played right into the hands of the ISIL propaganda juggernaut. On that moment when the suspect in Melbourne pulled the knife, there was nothing more that could be done. But that was one moment in eighteen years, so obviously something had to happen to set him down that path. Surely a better question to ask is what happened and why, and more importantly, how it can be prevented next time.

But I find your comments extremely disturbing, because once upon a time, that was government policy. It was called the White Australia Policy.
 
Totally off topic, this IS leader guy has a pretty baller name. Al Bag Daddy #Swag

No one shopped a pic of him yet, like what people did with Rmoney?
 
Why would we want to do that? Glorifying him or mocking him will only play into ISIL's hands.
Glorifying in the sense that I've compared him to a politician? :confused: How is mocking him playing into ISIL's hands?

Oh yeah, we don't *want someone being killed over a stupid picture again. :rolleyes:

Edited. My bad.
 
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If you make memes mocking him, you're only going to infuriate ISIL. Their leader can claim a bloodline going all the way back to the first tribes united under Islam, which is a big deal in establishing his claim as caliph.

And since ISIL's social media presence is very effective, they will likely start producing memes of their own, glorifying him.
 
Are stupid people not to be mocked?
This is the problem that everyone keeps making - assuming that ISIL are stupid, like a bunch of morons who somehow got their hands on some AK-47s and decided that they wanted to rule the world.

But they're not stupid. They have defeated two armies in Iraq and Syria, have managed to maintain the economy of the regions they have seized, and have an extremely effective propaganda and social media presence. They're aggressive, they're brutal, and they're cruel, but that does not automatically make them stupid.
 
This is the problem that everyone keeps making - assuming that ISIL are stupid, like a bunch of morons who somehow got their hands on some AK-47s and decided that they wanted to rule the world.

But they're not stupid. They have defeated two armies in Iraq and Syria, have managed to maintain the economy of the regions they have seized, and have an extremely effective propaganda and social media presence. They're aggressive, they're brutal, and they're cruel, but that does not automatically make them stupid.
Even believing in 1,400-year-old gibberish as blindly as they do doesn't make them stupid? I beg to differ.
 
This is the problem that everyone keeps making - assuming that ISIL are stupid, like a bunch of morons who somehow got their hands on some AK-47s and decided that they wanted to rule the world.

But they're not stupid. They have defeated two armies in Iraq and Syria, have managed to maintain the economy of the regions they have seized, and have an extremely effective propaganda and social media presence. They're aggressive, they're brutal, and they're cruel, but that does not automatically make them stupid.
No, I meant stupid in the sense that they're fighting for a religious cause, and with such determination at that.
 
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No, I meant stupid in the sense that they're fighting for a religious cause, and with such determination at that.

I have doubts they are all fighting for a religious cause. Some of these people with ISIS have real grievances, such as Iraqi Sunni dispossessed from power by Iraqi Shiites (installed by the US). Such as the educated, elite secular Ba'athists formerly running Iraq for the Saddam Hussein regime. They are very closely working with al-Baghdadi at the head of ISIS.

Edit: Some of these folks are smartest, best educated people the Arab race has to offer. In my opinion, they are successfully, if cynically, using religion as a means to redress their grievances.
 
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Even believing in 1,400-year-old gibberish as blindly as they do doesn't make them stupid? I beg to differ.
Certainly no more stupid than writing them off as fools for believing something that you don't.

No, I meant stupid in the sense that they're fighting for a religious cause, and with such determination at that.
That still doesn't make them stupid.
 
Certainly no more stupid than writing them off as fools for believing something that you don't.


That still doesn't make them stupid.
Does killing a person in the name of religion make them stupid then?

Also, I find it ridiculous that Western politicians are trying to distance IS from Islam by claiming that it is not Islam. (Political correctness?) The Islamic State is Islam in it's truest form.



Check this out, strict implementation of Sharia law, tax on non-Muslims; it's exactly what the Koran instructs.

I think I'm beginning to turn into one of those nutjob conspiracy theorists claiming the West is being controlled by Saudi oil. :boggled:
 
Also, I find it ridiculous that Western politicians are trying to distance IS from Islam by claiming that it is not Islam. (Political correctness?) The Islamic State is Islam in it's truest form.



Check this out, strict implementation of Sharia law, tax on non-Muslims; it's exactly what the Koran instructs.

I think I'm beginning to turn into one of those nutjob conspiracy theorists claiming the West is being controlled by Saudi oil. :boggled:


Yes you are :P as i'm pretty sure the Bible has similar laws and nutty concepts that christian countries do not implement, does that mean they should all be distanced from Christianity?
 
I think I'm beginning to turn into one of those nutjob conspiracy theorists claiming the West is being controlled by Saudi oil. :boggled:

Not so nutty after all.

About two centuries ago the Sauds made a deal with the Wahhabs to support each other. History, and the Muslim religion, hasn't been the same since. In my opinion, Islam has been corrupted - maybe fatally - by this incestuous alliance of mosque and state.

In my very reluctant opinion, it's worth fracking your water (not mine) and building new pipelines in your backyard (not mine) to free us from the damnable Sauds and their sweet, light crude.
 
Yes you are :P as i'm pretty sure the Bible has similar laws and nutty concepts that christian countries do not implement, does that mean they should all be distanced from Christianity?
Thanks for the reassurance, I'm slowly creeping back into sanity now. :P

But you see, no Western/Christian country still follows ancient outdated laws that violate human rights. (Or are there? I certainly do not know of any) Meanwhile in Saudi Arabia. They have sharia and the ideology is basically the same as IS. Only difference is that IS poses a threat to the monarchy. (read that from some comment on an article, I'm not that great a conspiracy theorist)
 
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@kennylmao there are a few Latin American countries like El Salvador that have a total ban on abortion, and the Catholic Church has massive influence in those countries. I think the Philippines only legalised divorce in the last couple of years (another country where the RCC has a strong influence) and Malta remains the only country in the world (if you don't count the Vatican) that has a ban on divorce.

@Dotini I think I remember reading this piece about former Baathists becoming radicalised in Iraqi prisons; I think this might be it: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/18/someone-is-spilling-isis-s-secrets-on-twitter.html
 
Certainly no more stupid than writing them off as fools for believing something that you don't.
Yeah, because I'm pretty stupid for not believing the moon is able to emit light on its own, and that the sun is a flat disk. (Just like Earth)

Similarly to the Bible, the Quran was written by people who had no understanding of how science, or space in general, works. I don't blame those people for lack of knowledge - I blame those who still thinks the Quran is infallible after all these scientific advancements have proven several of its claims false.
 
Also, I find it ridiculous that Western politicians are trying to distance IS from Islam by claiming that it is not Islam. (Political correctness?) The Islamic State is Islam in it's truest form.
A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. You post one questionable video with an obvious agenda and consider yourself to be not just an expert on 1500 years of culture, history and theology as you have clearly taken it upon yourself to judge the merits of an entire religion with a single generalisation. And then you will no doubt wonder why you get community backlash when you claim the most extreme form of a religion is its truest.

It's this ignorant, narrow-minded, insular, self-righteous, arrogant, hypocritical, mule-headed, cynical, disgraceful and conservative outlook that pisses me off. It is not your right and it is not your place to judge millions of people this way.
 
Also, I find it ridiculous that Western politicians are trying to distance IS from Islam by claiming that it is not Islam. (Political correctness?) The Islamic State is Islam in it's truest form.

Has it occurred to you that some of those politicians might be Muslim? And have you listened to any of the comments from senior Imams in Europe? Not much support for the IS method here except amongst a few extremists. Because it's an extremist form of Isla'am far removed from 99% of Muslim's lives.

IS rely on brainwashing people who can't think outside the information that's fed to them. There's irony.
 
A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. You post one questionable video with an obvious agenda and consider yourself to be not just an expert on 1500 years of culture, history and theology as you have clearly taken it upon yourself to judge the merits of an entire religion with a single generalisation. And then you will no doubt wonder why you get community backlash when you claim the most extreme form of a religion is its truest.

It's this ignorant, narrow-minded, insular, self-righteous, arrogant, hypocritical, mule-headed, cynical, disgraceful and conservative outlook that pisses me off. It is not your right and it is not your place to judge millions of people this way.
Ohoho, that's what they all say. "The religion is misunderstood. People misinterpreted wrongly." Isn't religion convenient?

I do not consider myself an expert but I know the facts. Tell me Islam =/= Sharia. Or are the Saudis doing things wrong? You have laws that are not only unfair to women and minorities, it violates human rights and have no place in the modern world. Stoning of the gays (only if caught during intercourse IIRC), women can only be considered to have been raped if there are 4 Muslim male witnesses(?!!), death to apostates (I'll get back to you in the other thread soon, sorry), amputation for theft and so on.

As far as I know, all holy books are just story books, and should only be used as that. Nothing more. What makes me sad is that it's the 21st century and people still believe in sky fairies. And it greatly depresses me that the people who are progressing to a future without one is being held back by the people with one of the greatest sky fairies of all.

So great that you can't question, criticize or insult at all without politically correct people calling you out as a racist.
Has it occurred to you that some of those politicians might be Muslim? And have you listened to any of the comments from senior Imams in Europe? Not much support for the IS method here except amongst a few extremists. Because it's an extremist form of Isla'am far removed from 99% of Muslim's lives.

IS rely on brainwashing people who can't think outside the information that's fed to them. There's irony.
I'm not sure which Western politician is a Muslim. Yes, I've read the letter written to IS by a bunch of scholars condemning their actions. But wait, what they've said is only to 'not be so harsh' in their actions. The only thing that's extreme is in their implementation, according to them. Sharia is still sharia.

*Brainwashing and out of fear of being killed.

I have a properly functioning brain, btw. I am able to consume information, weed out the propaganda and come up with a logical answer, thank you.
 
Ohoho, that's what they all say. "The religion is misunderstood. People misinterpreted wrongly."
That's not what I said. I said you were wrong to judge an entire religion based on single, obviously-biased "source". I'll bet you never so much as considered a single alternative source.

If, as you said, "Islamic State is the truest form of Islam", how do you explain the way the overwhelming majority of Muslims reject ISIS? That video you posted is the equivalent of judging Christianity as a whole based solely on the Westboro Baptist Church.

ISIS work a lot like a street gang. They identify disaffected young men as potential recruits and offer them something that is absent from their lives, or something that they think is absent - a sense of identity, or direction. And they appeal to that through the idea of fighting to build a state where they can live as they see fit. A big part of that is convincing these young men that the society they live in rejects them, or doesn't respect them; that the Western world has no place for Islam - but by joining ISIS, they can have that sense of fulfilment. Their propaganda videos show senior ISIS figures (who are usually in their early thirties) engaging directly with recruits and treating them as grown men, or music videos showing fighters on the front lines. It's carefully-constructed to make the group as appealing as possible. And it's effective - the group's strength has been estimated to be around 30,000.

This is why community involvement is needed to thwart ISIS. We need to identify at-risk youths before they are at risk and respond to them individually. We need to demonstrate that they are not just valued and respected, but that they can contribute to society at large. The more successful we are, the less likely they will fall in line with ISIS. But when your attitude amounts to "anyone who joins ISIS is stupid" and "Islam is a barbaric religion", you're creating more problems that you're solving. To the vast majority of Muslims, renouncing their faith is unthinkable - even in communuties where doing so is not considered a crime. So all you have managed to do is insult them for thinking differently to you.

Like I said, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
 
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I'll list some for you; for a start you can normally take the Pakistani representatives on this list of ethnic-minority members of the UK parliament to be Muslim.

Reading your reply I got the feeling that it hadn't occurred to you that there are Muslim politicians just like any other? Christianity isn't the only religious game in town you know ;)
Wow, there's a list of politicians based on ethnicity? :eek: Racist! :P

JK, thanks for the link. 👍 At first, I thought you were implying Obama. :lol: That's some hardcore conspiracy theory poop, eh?

Yep, I assumed. But seriously, religion and politics is one helluva bad combo man.

EDIT: LOL GRATZ BRAH :D
 
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Wow, there's a list of politicians based on ethnicity? :eek:

I was surprised at find a specific list so quickly, looking at the Edit I'd say that it's maintained by someone in the UK Parliament themselves (most likely a civil servant).

Here are some basic facts about Isla'am, a very moderate and sensible page. Just like 99% of all educational pages of course.

I was a little terse when I reversely accused you of being brain-washed but I still wonder if you take a balanced view of the "good" sides along with the clearly-very-bad.
 
I was surprised at find a specific list so quickly, looking at the Edit I'd say that it's maintained by someone in the UK Parliament themselves (most likely a civil servant).

Here are some basic facts about Isla'am, a very moderate and sensible page. Just like 99% of all educational pages of course.

I was a little terse when I reversely accused you of being brain-washed but I still wonder if you take a balanced view of the "good" sides along with the clearly-very-bad.
Thanks for the link. Seems much more appropriate for a Westerner than a Malaysian though. :P I agree, initial opinion still plays a role in influencing a person's view, but I try my best to see things for what it truly is. After all, I believe in truth not Gods. I try. That is why I reply so slow, I have like a million tabs opened. :crazy:

I still haven't figured out how VICE would be a news outlet with an agenda. (I'm slow at picking up hints :ouch:) I know Fox is one you can't trust.
 
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Also, I find it ridiculous that Western politicians are trying to distance IS from Islam by claiming that it is not Islam. (Political correctness?) The Islamic State is Islam in it's truest form.
No. It's a commercial organization hidden behind Islam. They sell oil from the captured sites, their leaders gain billions of dollars and use brainwashed people as their personnel. Islam is just to unify those mobs and keep them loyal. It's a special kind of religious sect.
 
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