The war on ISIS.
- Thread starter mister dog
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Putin says he has evidence that they never crossed into Turkish air space.
Turkey has provided proof, I take it russia is still photoshopping their "proof"
Heck if putin contacted turkey and said can we fly with in this small area to make it easier to fight ISIS this may not have happened.
Turkey has provided proof, I take it russia is still photoshopping their "proof"
Heck if putin contacted turkey and said can we fly with in this small area to make it easier to fight ISIS this may not have happened.
- 31,470
- Buckwheat City
- Dennisch
I think Turkey is acting a bit too anal towards the Russians, and they screwed up seriously.
Erdogans speech about their right to defend themselves was absolute bullcrap, since the Russians aren't threatening the Turks. But that just might change.
Erdogans speech about their right to defend themselves was absolute bullcrap, since the Russians aren't threatening the Turks. But that just might change.
- 7,176
- Lisboa
- FLAT_TWELVE
I think the issue is more that Russia isn't an ally in the fight against Daesh. Russia is an ally to Assad in the fight against any and all rebels. Including the Syrian "turks" in that region. So, basically that a Russian airplane is doing fly overs in a piece of Turkish airspace AND is doing it to bomb the crap out of the groups of turkish ethnic origin that are fighting both Assad and Daesh ... is adding insult to injury.
To clarify, I don't know if this is what's happening, but that's what it seems the Turks believe is happening. Which makes it pretty much the same.
To clarify, I don't know if this is what's happening, but that's what it seems the Turks believe is happening. Which makes it pretty much the same.
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I dunno. It's certainly inadvisable to play hardball with any powerful country, but Russia has spent so much of the past five years acting like they are hot 🤬 and dick swinging like they still have the power that they had 30 years ago that it's rather refreshing for a country to tell Russia to eff off when they start screwing around in their affairs and back it up instead of just acquiescing everything because they don't want to rock the boat.
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- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
While you're strictly correct it's true that Russia have been bombing the Turkmens.
Turkey have told Russia on many occasions that if they send jets into Turkish airspace then the Turks will shoot one down. Russia have continued to send jets through a little bit of Turkish airspace either because it's convenient, because they didn't believe the NATO/Turkish threats or because they didn't care. That's led to the loss of two Russian aircraft and, much more sadly, two Russian crew (one flyer and one marine, as I understand it).
The threat was always there, it was always spoken and it was always real. Putin's pootin' but this was always on the cards, particularly as there's never been any love lost there.
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- Azle, TX
- supermanfromazle
- SanjiHimura
Turkey can't have it both ways though. You can't go and declare any fighter craft flying out of Syria to be the enemy (reserving the right to shoot said plane down in the process), and then try to invoke Article V when YOU shoot down a fighter jet that was using your airspace as a short cut. It certainly doesn't help your case when the rebels that you are arming and aiding go and destroy a rescue helicopter and its crew.
McLaren
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So, Turkey is upset that Russia kept crossing into their airspace, yet they do the same to Greece?
The one thing I can't see Turkey explaining is even if they had justification to shoot the jet down, why is there a video of Turkish fighters firing shots at the pilot who was parachuting down?
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/01/turkey-greece-cyprus-aegean-air-space-nato.html#
The one thing I can't see Turkey explaining is even if they had justification to shoot the jet down, why is there a video of Turkish fighters firing shots at the pilot who was parachuting down?
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- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Do you have a source for them making that blanket statement?
Even if your former statement is true then I don't see how the second is remotely connected? You make it sound like "a shortcut" is okay?
If you read your own link you'll see that Greece claim a greater airspace over the Aegean than is internationally recognised - it's not really relevant to this particular discussion, it's more like the case of US ships being warned that they're in Iranian waters a few months ago. You'll also see that Greek aircraft fly incursively in Turkish airspace within the nationally recognised boundary. A definite difference there, I think.
There's video of Turkmen (not Turkish army) shooting at the pilot... the same Turkmen that Russia have bombed heavily in recent weeks. Hardly a surprising reaction from them, I have to say.
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- jimipitbull
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Remember that the Turks were buying the cheap oil from ISIS until the oil convoys started to get heavily bombed by RuAF. They were losing some big profit...
The Russian policy in the region is simple: everyone who fights Assad's forces is an ISIS assistant. Plus there are many players in this region who would rather team up with ISIS than Damascus or Russia.
Normally, an opposing force would try to capture the pilot alive and have good use of it (the scandal would be much less serious if both pilots were alive). Shooting someone who's not in the condition to resist isn't cool. Even Luftwaffe didn't shoot enemy pilots parachuting down during the WWII.
BREAKING:
The second pilot is alive, picked up by SAA and delivered to the airbase.
https://www.rt.com/news/323377-russian-pilot-saved-syria/
The Russian policy in the region is simple: everyone who fights Assad's forces is an ISIS assistant. Plus there are many players in this region who would rather team up with ISIS than Damascus or Russia.
This clearly shows how "moderate" these rebels are. At least the confirmed dead pilot wasn't tortured to death or burnt alive.
Normally, an opposing force would try to capture the pilot alive and have good use of it (the scandal would be much less serious if both pilots were alive). Shooting someone who's not in the condition to resist isn't cool. Even Luftwaffe didn't shoot enemy pilots parachuting down during the WWII.
Yes, he has.
Oh this is so proven by the international investigators...
BREAKING:
The second pilot is alive, picked up by SAA and delivered to the airbase.
https://www.rt.com/news/323377-russian-pilot-saved-syria/
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- 2,993
- Brisbane
- jimipitbull
Do you really think Russia would veto the UN Security Council tribunal if they were innocent?
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- Moscow
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- RageRacer48
RF is about to deploy S-400 Triumph long-range SAM systems.
https://www.rt.com/news/323379-s400-russia-syria-airbase/
Erdogan admits that the Su-24 wasn't in the Turkish airspace for longer than 17 seconds (this number is mentioned in the NATO reports.
Some news say the Turkish fighters do not operate in this area after being spotted by Russian radars of the S-300 systems.
It's been discussed over 9000 times in the respective thread. Please keep it on topic.
https://www.rt.com/news/323379-s400-russia-syria-airbase/
Erdogan admits that the Su-24 wasn't in the Turkish airspace for longer than 17 seconds (this number is mentioned in the NATO reports.
Some news say the Turkish fighters do not operate in this area after being spotted by Russian radars of the S-300 systems.
Do you think it is OK to start a tribunal (that is meant to punish the culprits) before the investigation (that is to define the culprit) is complete? Punishment precedes the investigations?
It's been discussed over 9000 times in the respective thread. Please keep it on topic.
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- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Who said their methods against the far from "moderate" Assad were "moderate"? Was the Russian bombing of them "moderate"?
I quite agree that shooting at a parachuting pilot isn't the done thing amongst airforces, but they were enemies parachuting into enemy territory. Good to hear that they're both alive and well.
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- Dennisch
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- EelX 5
I kinda feel sorry for all the ISIS Teens, we actually had a discussion in English about why mlst of these people are Teens to Young Adults and an interesting idea is that these people are being manipulated by the ISIS, through online usage and these people are likely weak minded so them being manipulated is easy, which gets them to flee to ISIS or even go out and kill people in their own country.
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- Moscow
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Immoderate response to immoderate actions. Arrange a ceasefire with SAA and let's go fighting ISIS together, then you'll be moderate. But the Turks and Turkmen seem to be more hostile to the Syrian govt than to ISIS. They turn out to be helping ISIS, one might say.
Geneva conventions, Protocol I, Article 42:
1. No person parachuting from an aircraft in distress shall be made the object of attack during his descent.
2. Upon reaching the ground in territory controlled by an adverse Party, a person who has parachuted from an aircraft in distress shall be given an opportunity to surrender before being made the object of attack, unless it is apparent that he is engaging in a hostile act.
3. Airborne troops are not protected by this Article.
One Su-24 pilot and one marine soldier from the search-and-rescue team are dead. There is a reason why the rebels would shoot at the helicopter, as the marines were a threat to them. But killing the pilot wasn't a good idea. If they captured a pilot alive, the Russians wouldn't bomb them so hard knowing their comrade is held in that area. But now, these positions are bombed out heavily and those who shot the pilot are most probably dead already.
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Ok, so I have a question. Some of you seem quite in the know of all this, so here goes: The Turkmen, who have been bombarded by the Russians, have they been members of the ISIS or some sort of helpers, or are they a completely different group alltogether?
Because if they HAVE been pro ISIS, then Russia has EVERY right to eliminate them. If they were blonde, blue/green eyed Germans with names like Schmidt, Müller whatever and pro ISIS, I would applaud the Russians for killing them.
"He, who lives by the sword, shall die by the sword", or "You shall reap what you sow". Not to get too religious here, but you get the point. They are getting what they deserve (ISIS).
Because if they HAVE been pro ISIS, then Russia has EVERY right to eliminate them. If they were blonde, blue/green eyed Germans with names like Schmidt, Müller whatever and pro ISIS, I would applaud the Russians for killing them.
"He, who lives by the sword, shall die by the sword", or "You shall reap what you sow". Not to get too religious here, but you get the point. They are getting what they deserve (ISIS).
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- Carbonox
There's a big difference between a paratrooper and a pilot who's forced to parachute out of a shot-down plane...
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- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Really? So the Turks are actually helping ISIS, that's why the Russians are bombing the Turkmen?
Completely different group altogether, the Turkmen oppose Assad but have nothing to do with ISIS.
The Turkmen are not a state and not a treaty member. I deplore what they did but I remain unsurprised.
My mistake, I thought that it had turned out that both were alive.
See the earlier comments on the Geneva convention.
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- Hanover/Germany
- alexpkas
Well, that's a tricky one. I can see where the Russians are coming from: The enemy of my friend is also my enemy...one should realize that the Russians (understandably so) would be interested in sustaining their friendships, even by military means...
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- Azle, TX
- supermanfromazle
- SanjiHimura
Here is a quote from the Turkish Prime Minister back in October:
Source: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/11/24/nato-should-tell-turkey-this-thanksgiving-youre-dumped/
Not saying that it is, but when you consider where the plane actually crashed, Map Here, I would certainly give Russia the benefit of the doubt here. 4km from the Turkish border is still in Syria, and the Russians were bombing in the area (I think the intended target was ISIS oil convoys since Turkey imports ISIS oil (see Breitbart link).
As for the Article V connection, there was an immediate meeting of NATO leaders yesterday. If Turkey considers that fighter jet to be a threat, which it does, it can invoke Article V, which essentially means an attack on one is an attack on all. The last time Article V was invoked since World War 2 was 2001.
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- Tallinn
He could have been killed when the missile hit the plane. There's a video where the two pilots are parachuting down and some lazy gunfire is heard, but the pilots were very high up. One of the pilots (co-pilot) is alive and well. The other one (commander) had damage to the head and body.
Yeah, another of those "they just accidentally got lost" situations.
