The war on ISIS.

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Carlos
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I guess the Su-24 is the red line, seems like it crossed NATO airspace but in my eyes this does not justify to shoot (kill) them.
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BBC radio is reporting the Russian jet crossed small finger of Turkish territory, that one of the pilots is dead, and Sergey Lavrov is so far not canceling a scheduled visit to Turkey today.

Edit: Remember that Turkey's highest priority is the removal of the Alawite (Shia) regime, and has consistently armed and supported Sunni fighters in Syria.

And, wrapped in the cloak of NATO, perhaps they feel invulnerable to military retaliation from Russia. Turkey and Russia have $30B in trade at stake, including a pipeline with a terminus in Europe.
 
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Dotini
BBC radio is reporting the Russian jet crossed small finger of Turkish territory, that one of the pilots is dead, and Sergey Lavrov is so far not canceling a scheduled visit to Turkey today.

Edit: Remember that Turkey's highest priority is the removal of the Alawite (Shia) regime, and has consistently armed and supported Sunni fighters in Syria.

And, wrapped in the cloak of NATO, perhaps they feel invulnerable to military retaliation from Russia. Turkey and Russia have $30B in trade at stake, including a pipeline with a terminus in Europe.
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Yeah I saw the video of the pilot on Twitter. With people screaming you know what.
 
Carlos
Yeah I saw the video of the pilot on Twitter. With people screaming you know what.
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TO THE SNACKBARRRRRR!

Edit.

Hearing Putin just now, I think Turkey seriously screwed up here.

Edit2

There was an attack on a hotel in the Sinai.
 
Yep, Putin has called the downing of that jet a "stab in the back committed by accomplices of terrorists". [BBC] Yowch.
 
Carlos
I guess the Su-24 is the red line, seems like it crossed NATO airspace but in my eyes this does not justify to shoot (kill) them.
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In view of the recent Russian bombardments of Turkmen (unrelated to the war on ISIS as far as I can see) tensions are high. The warnings have been clear, if the Russians allowed one of their planes to stray into "enemy" airspace then the outcome, as I said, is clear.
 
TenEightyOne
In view of the recent Russian bombardments of Turkmen (unrelated to the war on ISIS as far as I can see) tensions are high. The warnings have been clear, if the Russians allowed one of their planes to stray into "enemy" airspace then the outcome, as I said, is clear.
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Word goes that they shot down a chopper too, it was on mission finding the shot down pilots.

Turkey: says it bombs IS and Kurds get bombed, says it's against IS but rather shoot down a Russian plane because they help Assad.
 
TenEightyOne
I'd have to disagree with that although I'd agree with @Dennisch about the EU. Turkey should remain part of the UN as should Russia.
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With the recent developments in Turkey, I'm really not so sure. They are becoming one of the biggest implications on making this war on terror succeed.
 
Well, this is a problem, a pretty big one.

Is likely that bombers are now going to fly with fighter escorts. F-16 vs Su-24M is an easy one, Su-34 has AA weapon systems and is capable of confront a F-16. Russians are not stupid and they will probably send something with more aerial capabilities to confront air to air threats (Su-35 or Mig-35).

This could escalate if aerial bombardment continues. Personally I believe Russians are getting too close to ISIS owned pipelines and supply routes towards Turkey, what I don't get is why Turkey is defending them, it seems to be close to NATO operational airspace which should be doing such bombardments on supply routes.
 
Akira AC
Russians are getting too close to ISIS owned pipelines and supply routes towards Turkey, what I don't get is why Turkey is defending them, it seems to be close to NATO operational airspace which should be doing such bombardments on supply routes.
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Turkey is playing both sides of the street. And not very well.
 
So what will be the ramifications behind the downing of the SU-24? While I believe the Russians may have entered the airspace, if Turkey knows(at least I hope they know) that Russia isn't trying to invade or destroy Turkish assets(If they aren't involved in ISIS assets) why would they shoot the plane down? Do they not realize Russia could wipe turkey out in less than a year without the help of NATO? Or are they being brazen because they know NATO will protect them from the wraith and blowback from their idiotic actions? Things like this make me think the U.S should leave NATO(never gonna happen)
 
HELLAFLUSH240SX
So what will be the ramifications behind the downing of the SU-24? While I believe the Russians may have entered the airspace, if Turkey knows(at least I hope they know) that Russia isn't trying to invade or destroy Turkish assets(If they aren't involved in ISIS assets) why would they shoot the plane down? Do they not realize Russia could wipe turkey out in less than a year without the help of NATO? Or are they being brazen because they know NATO will protect them from the wraith and blowback from their idiotic actions? Things like this make me think the U.S should leave NATO(never gonna happen)
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It is almost as if Turkey is pulling us into a war against Russia. ;)
 
HELLAFLUSH240SX
So what will be the ramifications behind the downing of the SU-24?...why would they shoot the plane down?...Do they not realize Russia could wipe turkey out in less than a year without the help of NATO?....Or are they being brazen because they know NATO will protect them from the wraith and blowback from their idiotic actions?
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In the news conference just concluded, Hollande and Obama took pains to emphasize that Russia and Iran is a coalition of two to save Assad, that he and France are in a coalition of 65 to defeat ISIS, that Assad must go and Russia had better get on board. The jet was shot down because it was attacking moderate democratic rebels and not ISIS. But we want to deescalate. It was a pretty flabby performance by a pair of very confused and worried leaders.
 
Dotini
Turkey is playing both sides of the street. And not very well.
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I'd agree. Having seen a better map of the Fencer's location I think it's arguable that it was flying out of Turkish airspace as much as anything. Bad move by the Turks but one does wonder how countries can enforce their sovereignty otherwise. Are such incursions okay if it's "only a little bit of an incursion" as in this case?
 
The crossed finger of the Turkish territory was about 2.5 km in width, and if the bomber was flying at 600 km/h, it would take 15 seconds to leave it. Do you believe the plane recieved 10 warnings in that time? It is quite possible that the bomber was already in Syrian airspace when the missile hit it.

The Pentagon doesn't seem to be openly approving the downing, at least. Obama says a direct conversation between Russia and Turkey is needed.

A Turkmen rebel commander said the pilots were shot when they were landing on parachutes. Very clever.
http://www.todayszaman.com/anasayfa...s-down-warplane-near-syria-border_405108.html

Edit. Russian Defence Ministry reports:
One pilot was killed by gunfire from the ground. The fate of the second is unknown, they're still searching for him. Two Mi-8 helicopters headed for the crash site to rescue the pilots, one of them was damaged by gunfire and landed, having one mariner killed on board. The crew and the rescue team were evacuated, then the empty chopper was destroyed by rebels with a TOW missile.
Moskva cruiser ship equipped with S-300F long-range SAM missiles will be deployed near Latakia coast to destroy all targets appearing to be a "potential threat to us".

Well, what can I say? 🤬 happens. War is never a walk in a park.
 
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What was that plane doing in that sector anyways? There are no ISIS positions over there. Turkey warned many times and already shot down some drones.
 
I think that with the shooting of the Russian pilots, we have reached our Archduke Ferdinand moment. Turkey has started World War 3.

Dotini
In the news conference just concluded, Hollande and Obama took pains to emphasize that Russia and Iran is a coalition of two to save Assad, that he and France are in a coalition of 65 to defeat ISIS, that Assad must go and Russia had better get on board. The jet was shot down because it was attacking moderate democratic rebels and not ISIS. But we want to deescalate. It was a pretty flabby performance by a pair of very confused and worried leaders.
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Sanji Himura
I think that with the shooting of the Russian pilots, we have reached our Archduke Ferdinand moment. Turkey has started World War 3.
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Buddy, it's getting closer!

Believe it or not, there are men, and even a few women, who ardently pray and work toward WWIII. Lindsey Graham, the 2nd tier wannabe presidential candidate is one of them. But it is not them whom I fear. It is the pious blunderers who would sacrifice us all on their personal altar of honor and righteousness. The way perverted interlocking treaties and alliances cascaded into WWI has eery similarities with the present predicament.
 
Carlos
Okay, what if the Russian planes did fly into Turkish airspace. What benefit has Turkey to shoot them down?

edit;
"A Russian Su-24 fighter has been shot down in Syria, the Russian Defense Ministry said, adding the plane hadn’t violated Turkish airspace and was flying at an altitude of 6,000 meters." -RT

So yeah.. Why does Turkey do this? They must know Russia isn't directly fighting against Turkey, at this moment.
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Cause turkey said they would do this after the last airspace violation where SU-30 and F-16 got hard locks on each other
 
unit-one
Nicely written, but... man, why take the risk? What's the point? And this kinda reminds me all those annoying fly-bys above the US warships.
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Were saving a little bit of fuel and didn't care about the "last Turkish warnings" maybe?..
I guess the Russian bombers will be flying with fighter escort from now on.

BTW, there's a president security bus was bombed in Tunisia. At least 12 dead and 16 wounded.
 
Rage Racer
Were saving a little bit of fuel and didn't care about the "last Turkish warnings" maybe?..
I guess the Russian bombers will be flying with fighter escort from now on.
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Didn't care about the last warnings and the other 10. Crossed the "finger" two times (?) (I'm looking at the trajectory on the map) Saved a bit of fuel, now lost two men and a plane. And got more problems.

Don't they calculate how much fuel you need for the mission and what path you will fly before sortie? It wasn't a ground support mission, right?
 
unit-one
Didn't care about the last warnings and the other 10. Crossed the "finger" two times (?) (I'm looking at the trajectory on the map) Saved a bit of fuel, now lost two men and a plane. And got more problems.

Don't they calculate how much fuel you need for the mission and what path you will fly before sortie? It wasn't a ground support mission, right?
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The "finger" was 2 - 2.5 km in width and it would take 15-20 seconds for a jet to leave it. The pilots possibly did not assume the Turks to be shooting because of such a short violation of their airspace.

BTW, the Russian Defence Ministry doesn't admit the very fact of violation... Anyway, they won't be so careless from now on.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
Cause turkey said they would do this after the last airspace violation where SU-30 and F-16 got hard locks on each other
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Not quite. Turkey changed their rules of engagement to declare any plane flying from Syria would be an enemy combatant. Now that they shot down a Russian plane, now they want to invoke Article five in a fight that they really started.
 
Rage Racer
The "finger" was 2 - 2.5 km in width and it would take 15-20 seconds for a jet to leave it. The pilots possibly did not assume the Turks to be shooting because of such a short violation of their airspace.

BTW, the Russian Defence Ministry doesn't admit the very fact of violation... Anyway, they won't be so careless from now on.
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I'm guessing they warned them about the dangerous maneuvers like... in Ace Combat :I "warning, you are leaving the area of operation" and when the plane was heading towards and then crossed the border...
They had enough time to sortie their Falcon and arrive at the scene.

Yeah, I too hope that there won't be any risky maneuvers from now on.
 

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