The war on ISIS.

[TenEightyOne]

The pilot denies that he received any warnings from Turkish Air Control and says that there's no way he was in Turkish airspace. Interestingly this report says that he and his crewmate "parachuted from the plane", hard to imagine... surely they ejected?

Others say that there were at least 10 contacts between ground and the jet.

The Turkish PM stands by his line on Russia's attacks on the Syrian opposition;

No-one can legitimise attacks on Turkmen in Syria using the pretext of fighting the Islamic State

 

[Dennisch]

If that's the reason the plane has been shot down...

Dundundun!

 

[unit-one]

Just saw an interview with the co-pilot. He was not showing his face and was standing with his back towards the camera. He and the reporters are outside. He has a calm voice and looks like he is reading the text from a paper or something. Each time before talking his head leans as if he's looking at the papers. Then he rises his left arm as if he's really holding something in front of him. His voice volume differs from the reporters. It's very clean and almost no wind noise.

He's saying that he was controlling the flight path and that they didn't cross the border. They knew that sector like the palm of their hands. He could navigate without using the equipment. He also said that they didn't visually see the incoming missile. His last words were that when he will be released from the hospital, he will go back to flying and he will "return the favor".

EDIT" here - click

 

[TenEightyOne]

Each time before talking his head leans as if he's looking at the papers.

As if there's an official line on the incident? No kidding

Here is a quote from the Turkish Prime Minister back in October:

Even if it’s a flying bird, whoever violates Turkish airspace will be subject to the necessary actions… Turkey’s rules of engagement are valid for Syria’s, Russia’s or another country’s warplanes.

I missed this reply earlier, apologies. With respect that quote has nothing to do with your blanket assertion that

Turkey can't have it both ways though. You can't go and declare any fighter craft flying out of Syria to be the enemy (reserving the right to shoot said plane down in the process)

They said their rules of engagement were valid for the warplanes of Syria, Russia or another country... when they violate Turkish airspace, flying from Syria wasn't mentioned.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Not quite. Turkey changed their rules of engagement to declare any plane flying from Syria would be an enemy combatant. Now that they shot down a Russian plane, now they want to invoke Article five in a fight that they really started.

The point is they gave the world a public notice of intent. That was already showing they were willing to violate. And now Obama makes it a point to say "Turkey should be allowed to defend it's airspace"...

I'm not defending turkey but people should have had far more issue with this before a plane actually was shot clean out of the sky.

 

[Dotini]

The downing of the plane was an act of pique and extreme violence against Russia only remotely connected to the supposed border violation. Turkey ardently wants the Alawite regime and Assad gone, and Russia is bombing the hell out of Turkmen rebels and al Qaeda's Nusra Front who are trying to overthrow the regime in Latakia - ground zero and the heartland of the Alawites.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/russia-bombards-syrian-rebels-near-downed-russian-jet-122428258.html
YAYLADAGI, Turkey (Reuters) - Russian forces launched a heavy bombardment against insurgent-held areas in Syria's Latakia province on Wednesday, near where a Russian warplane had been shot down by Turkey the day before, rebels and a monitoring group said.

At least 12 air strikes hit Latakia's northern countryside as pro-government forces clashed with fighters from al Qaeda's Nusra Front and Turkmen insurgents in the Jabal Akrad and Jabal Turkman areas, the British-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said.

A Turkmen commander said missiles fired from Russian warships in the Mediterranean were also hitting the area, as well as heavy artillery shelling.

 

[CTznOfTime]

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but while turkey and russia are playing tic-tac-to

Europe is buying Oil from ISIS indirectly from Turkey?

NATO,Europe,Turkey and the US are against Assad.
Assad and Russia have a common enemy,
Assad is fighting ISIS

Giving the priorities, shouldnt ISIS be taken care first, then Assad?

Did i correctly understood the situation?

I am a bit confused as to who is fighting whom and for what reasons...

 

[Speedracer8218]

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but while turkey and russia are playing tic-tac-to

Europe is buying Oil from ISIS indirectly from Turkey?

NATO,Europe,Turkey and the US are against Assad.
Assad and Russia have a common enemy,
Assad is fighting ISIS

Giving the priorities, shouldnt ISIS be taken care first, then Assad?

Did i correctly understood the situation?

I am a bit confused as to who is fighting whom and for what reasons...

I found this clip the other day and found it helpful to illustrate somewhat the situation over in Syria

 

[TenEightyOne]

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but while turkey and russia are playing tic-tac-to

Europe is buying Oil from ISIS indirectly from Turkey?

NATO,Europe,Turkey and the US are against Assad.
Assad and Russia have a common enemy,
Assad is fighting ISIS

Giving the priorities, shouldnt ISIS be taken care first, then Assad?

Did i correctly understood the situation?

I am a bit confused as to who is fighting whom and for what reasons...

The UN and many of its constituent countries have, for many years, been pushing for a change in the Assad regime. That would ideally be one where sectarian accusations can no longer hold ground, where the people's democratic wishes are respected and where the behaviour of the state is becoming as such.

There's a long-established black market in oil, it's true that oil commandeered in production or delivery by ISIS finds its way into Turkey in addition to other places (source) and, as ever, that raises natural suspicion about the apparently altruistic motives of the countries losing out on business like Russia and the USA.

Turkey is in oil deficit, it produces less than it consumes. Therefore it's true to say that ISIS oil ends up in Europe (as Turkey is partly in Europe) but the amounts going to the wider European market are negligible, if any.

In terms of priorities the waters are muddied. Russian strikes against anti-Assad targets do not form part of the war against ISIS. The latest Russian line is that some of the people they're bombing are from Russia and may return to instigate terror. Others see it as Assad using the situation to further bolster his dictatorship.

ISIS is a priority but maybe also a blind.

 

[Touring Mars]

Who'd be a Turkmen this close to Thanksgiving?

 

[Rage Racer]

Really? So the Turks are actually helping ISIS, that's why the Russians are bombing the Turkmen?

Turkey intends to remove Assad from Damascus by any means possible. Like arming some rebels. Now who do you think is in the position of self-defense here, Turkmen or Syria?

And yes, Turkey assists ISIS directly. There's some research has been done and facts are collected here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-l-phillips/research-paper-isis-turke_b_6128950.html?ir=Australia

Unlike Putin, I don't think shooting the Russian jet was a "stab in the back". This should have been expected. Russia was ignoring Turkey's hostile actions for too long.

Also: some reports come up about the Russian Airforce bombing a Turkish humanitarian convoy in the vicinity of Azaz. Luckily, there is a video where you can see how humanitarian such convoys are by checking the baby food and pampers carried by those trucks to Syria.


Erdogan vows to find and punish the journalists who recorded this:
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2015/06/01/413821/Turkey-threat-Cumhuriyet-MIT-trucks-Syria-weapons

Spoiler: joke of the day

Russians bombed a Turkish humanitarian convoy carrying construction metal and cement. The metal had been exploding for 2 days and cement fragments pierced a tank's armor nearby.

 

[Dennisch]

Erdogan is just as much a piece of poo like any other religious nutter in the region. I'm still amazed that the so called secular pride of the army is no where in sight.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Turkey intends to remove Assad from Damascus by any means possible. Like arming some rebels. Now who do you think is in the position of self-defense here, Turkmen or Syria?

That video's nearly two years old now and demonstrates that Turkey arm the pro-democracy rebels, as you say. I can't think of any other country that helps to arm rebels in aid of its political causes, of course...

Unlike Putin, I don't think shooting the Russian jet was a "stab in the back". This should have been expected. Russia was ignoring Turkey's hostile actions for too long.

So you don't accept that Russian jets were entering Turkish airspace? Or is it that you do accept that but it's okay?

Erdogan vows to find and punish the journalists who recorded this:
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2015/06/01/413821/Turkey-threat-Cumhuriyet-MIT-trucks-Syria-weapons

Yup, he's an idiot who is apparently against free speech.

 

[Dotini]

Carl Higbie, a former Navy Seal, is being interviewed on FOX right now. He advocates a select multinational discussion on the threshold for use of nuclear weapons against ISIS.

 

[Rage Racer]

pro-democracy rebels

Oh, here we go again.
To get guns and go taking power by force is truly democratic, if it's sponsored by a democratic state from outside, of course.

So you don't accept that Russian jets were entering Turkish airspace? Or is it that you do accept that but it's okay?

I'm not just about the plane case, I'm talking about other hostile and pro-ISIS actions (see the research link I've given before). Lots of ISIS fighters came to Syria through Turkey. Some even were trained in Turkey. And earlier, the Chechen islamists were funded through Turkey, later they seeked hideout in Turkey. But Russia was ignorant to this for too long. Turkey was our economic partner and a common tourist spot. I've been in Turkey once, too...

Yup, he's an idiot who is apparently against free speech.

Now let's arm some pro-free-speech rebels and set Turkey afire like Syria, in the sake of democracy and freedom, shall we?

P.S:
Turkish intelligence chief: Putin's intervention in Syria is against Islam and international law, ISIS is a reality and we are optimistic about the future

“ISIS is a reality and we have to accept that we cannot eradicate a well-organized and popular establishment such as the Islamic State; therefore I urge my western colleagues to revise their mindset about Islamic political currents, put aside their cynical mentalité and thwart Vladimir Putin's plans to crush Syrian Islamist revolutionaries,” Anadolu News Agency quoted Mr. Fidan as saying on Sunday.

Fidan further added that in order to deal with the vast number of foreign Jihadists craving to travel to Syria, it is imperative that ISIS must set up a consulate or at least a political office in Istanbul. He underlined that it is Turkey’s firm belief to provide medical care for all injured people fleeing Russian ruthless airstrikes regardless of their political or religious affiliation.

Recently as the fierce clashes between Russian army and ISIS terrorists raging across the war-torn Syria, countless number of ISIS injured fighters enter the Turkish territory and are being admitted in the military hospitals namely those in Hatay Province. Over the last few days, the Syrian army with the support of Russian air cover could fend off ISIS forces in strategic provinces of Homs and Hama.

 

[McLaren]

“ISIS is a reality and we have to accept that we cannot eradicate a well-organized and popular establishment such as the Islamic State
.....
countless number of ISIS injured fighters enter the Turkish territory and are being admitted in the military hospitals

Turkey needs to get rid of this guy, or accept the fact it'll become a target by more than just Russia.

Edit*
Russia deploys its S-400 air defense missile system in Syria.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...er-turkey-downs-one-of-its-jets-a6749041.html

 

[Dotini]

Following their meeting in Moscow, it was announced France and Russia will cooperate in strikes against ISIS.

Putin was quoted as saying of Turkey, "Those who do business with ISIS are playing with fire."

Hollande was quoted as saying Assad has no place in the future of Syria.

 

[Dennisch]

Trollololololol

 

[Dennisch]

Turkey intends to remove Assad from Damascus by any means possible. Like arming some rebels. Now who do you think is in the position of self-defense here, Turkmen or Syria?

And yes, Turkey assists ISIS directly. There's some research has been done and facts are collected here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-l-phillips/research-paper-isis-turke_b_6128950.html?ir=Australia

Unlike Putin, I don't think shooting the Russian jet was a "stab in the back". This should have been expected. Russia was ignoring Turkey's hostile actions for too long.

Also: some reports come up about the Russian Airforce bombing a Turkish humanitarian convoy in the vicinity of Azaz. Luckily, there is a video where you can see how humanitarian such convoys are by checking the baby food and pampers carried by those trucks to Syria.


Erdogan vows to find and punish the journalists who recorded this:
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2015/06/01/413821/Turkey-threat-Cumhuriyet-MIT-trucks-Syria-weapons

Spoiler: joke of the day

Russians bombed a Turkish humanitarian convoy carrying construction metal and cement. The metal had been exploding for 2 days and cement fragments pierced a tank's armor nearby.

I don't know if it's related but 2 prominent journalists have been arrested for 'aiding' IS. Apparently they were the ones who uncovered that the Turkish secret service was supplying IS.

And Russia has severed all ties with the Turkish army, even the hotline that was set up to prevent mid-air shenanigans. And Putin expects an apology from the Turks for the incident.

 

[CinnamonOD]

Well, Mexico took the warning issued by the IS to the coalition really seriously.
Now there's more soldiers patrolling the city, more police officers have carbines now and there are helicopters flying around the city every few hours. And crossing the US-MX border takes more time.
I think it's good, but I also think we're not in a position as dangerous as other countries like Germany and Belgium. The moves made by Mexico are a bit of an overreaction.

 

[CTznOfTime]

From Netflix US,i just saw a documenary by Frontline called "Syria's second front", and it is enlightning!

I highly recommend you view it...

 

[ExigeEvan]

Jane's Defence reporting that standard radio on Su24 doesn't receive emergency VHF and UHF frequencies, and requires additional module to do so.

If Turkey did sent interceptors have to ask the question why they didn't close to visual range if no radio response.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Jane's Defence reporting that standard radio on Su24 doesn't receive emergency VHF and UHF frequencies, and requires additional module to do so.

So they fly into NATO airspace (which they have, even if it's eventually proven that they didn't on this occasion) without the comms that even a private aircraft would have?

If Turkey did sent interceptors have to ask the question why they didn't close to visual range if no radio response.

Turkey would say that the aircraft was unidentified, that it was in their airspace, that the flight profile fitted that of a military jet and that they'd publicly warned many times previously of an armed response.

 

[jimipitbull]

And Putin expects an apology from the Turks for the incident.

Somewhat hypocritical for a bloke who usually acts like a turkey. He's definitely a strong leader though.

 

[Alex p.]

Turkey would say that the aircraft was unidentified, that it was in their airspace, that the flight profile fitted that of a military jet and that they'd publicly warned many times previously of an armed response.

I wonder how many times you can warn someone, than shoot him down from the sky, all in 17 seconds, those Turkish ground defence forces must be very efficient in their work and decision making!

Carl Higbie, a former Navy Seal, is being interviewed on FOX right now. He advocates a select multinational discussion on the threshold for use of nuclear weapons against ISIS.

Seriously though, that's insane.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I wonder how many times you can warn someone, than shoot him down from the sky, all in 17 seconds, those Turkish ground defence forces must be very efficient in their work and decision making!

I think it's more likely that the jet was warned as it approached Turkish airspace - it wouldn't be the first time that foreign jets have been warned on approach to the territory. I don't think anybody's saying that the entire sequence of events only began once the jet entered Turkey. Certainly the purported recording of the broadcast warnings takes significantly longer than 17 seconds to listen to, even with the gaps cut out.

 

[ExigeEvan]

So they fly into NATO airspace (which they have, even if it's eventually proven that they didn't on this occasion) without the comms that even a private aircraft would have?

Quite probably It somewhat ties in with the pilot claiming no notice of the missile either, which at 6,000 metres (?) you'd imagine some form of active radar guidance would be used. Despite recent investments Russian aircraft are still under equipped.

Turkey would say that the aircraft was unidentified, that it was in their airspace, that the flight profile fitted that of a military jet and that they'd publicly warned many times previously of an armed response.

Still a UFO, still perfectly valid to confirm visual contact on a target if you can't confirm radio comms and there's little threat of being attacked yourself (Which is a reasonable assumption when approaching a ground attack aircraft in uncontested airspace ).

It smacks of ill discipline to shoot an unidentified target.

I wonder how many times you can warn someone, than shoot him down from the sky, all in 17 seconds, those Turkish ground defence forces must be very efficient in their work and decision making!

If the aircraft is flying a vector into Turkish airspace then they're within their rights to warn them before they enter the airspace.

 

[Dotini]

If the aircraft is flying a vector into Turkish airspace then they're within their rights to warn them before they enter the airspace.

I imagine the rest of NATO is furious with Turkey. It is a violation of all known rules of engagement to shoot down a plane that is not threatening and is actually flying past and away from your territory. Turkey is endangering the peace, should be sanctioned, and their membership in NATO suspended. They cannot be allowed to start a war on a whim in a fit of pique.

 

[niky]

They cannot be allowed to start a war on a whim in a fit of pique.

Of course not.

That's only something Russia and America can do, while reasonably hoping to get away with it.

 

[Sanji Himura]

If the aircraft is flying a vector into Turkish airspace then they're within their rights to warn them before they enter the airspace.

The question still stands though, in my opinion. 10 warnings and a shoot down all in 17 seconds? That isn't to mention that if ExigeEvan's reporting is true and that there is a comm module required to receive emergency broadcasts (that was evidently missing from the shot down jet), sending and receiving those warnings in a frame of 17 seconds alone seem like a daunting task.

Besides, Turkey hasn't released their comms log to disprove the eye witness to the whole thing that is still alive.