The Words of the Winds are Now all Clear

  • Thread starter amar212
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i got a question, its not for this theadar but.. i ask anyway :) what do you think about rally track in gran turismo 5? i hope they wont be like grand canyon in gt4.. what i mean is the track is like ice or asphalt.. and you got only a dust efect.. i hope they will put road like in sega rally revo where the track is deformable.. when your wheele burnaut you will make a whole in ground..
 
Jag, listen. Going bullet point by bullet point on features that other games have that GT5 doesn't isn't really saying anything, unless those other games have ALL the things you're bringing up. But they don't.

See, you pick and choose things, and ignore the fact that all those other games don't include your laundry list either. I own and... well, until recently, played GTR Evo quite a bit, which I'm waiting until I get a proper PC wheel, which looks like my G25 will be here tuesday, WOO! But I digress. The physics are marginally better than in Prologue. The driver cams are adjustable but not that much better. The damage implementation is mostly mechanical, which surprised me. The graphics are atrocious, and look like a PS2 in high def, with poor particle effects. The sounds are not much better at all, and in fact, the tire noise in Prologue is much better, and contribute to a much better communication between me and the car, despite some saying force feedback is much better, which I differ over.

And this is a much heralded PC sim. SIM. Is it now rubbish because Prologue, not GT5, but PROLOGUE smokes it in a few significant areas?

See, if you contrast every game equally, put little checkmarks by every positive feature, none are perfect. So to grouse about GT5 - which isn't even out yet - when no other game seems to meet your standards either is particularly unimpressive.

By the way, there are EA's claims about Shift, and there are the videos, which lay out what they have so far. And I'm telling you, they have a LONG way to go before they can seriously start using the "sim" word.

big dani
what do you think about rally track in gran turismo 5? i hope they wont be like grand canyon in gt4.. what i mean is the track is like ice or asphalt.. and you got only a dust efect.. i hope they will put road like in sega rally revo where the track is deformable.. when your wheele burnaut you will make a whole in ground..
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Hard packed ground like you'd have in a course like Grand Canyon won't deform. I do agree with you though, as there are rally courses like Tahiti Road which have loose dirt, Charmonix which has snow, Cathedral Rocks which has gravel. Those tracks I hope to see deformation in the track, so that with each lap, you encounter ever more grooves.
 
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Tenacious D
Hard packed ground like you'd have in a course like Grand Canyon won't deform. I do agree with you though, as there are rally courses like Tahiti Road which have loose dirt, Charmonix which has snow, Cathedral Rocks which has gravel. Those tracks I hope to see deformation in the track, so that with each lap, you encounter ever more grooves.
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would be nice, but i guess this has to work with the game engine and i fear that the GT5 Engine might not be that flexible to simulate races on track and offroad with that degree of detail.

It would be nice to feel a bigger difference between loose dirt, snow and gravel, since they felt pretty similar to race on in GT4, especially loose dirt and gravel.
 
Digital-Nitrate
... and based on your last few posts, neither are facts. :ouch:

For someone who likes to say people are drinkin' some kind of Sony/PD/GT Kool-aid because they not only disagree with you, but have facts to back them up, you really should pay closer attention to what you're drinking because it certainly is negatively effecting your judgment and truth telling ability, and instead is apparently letting your biased subjective opinions take over where reasonable critical thinking would otherwise be. :indiff:
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I'm not here to massage my ego with praise, I'm a car enthusiast who's played the whole range of sims.

At this stage the GT series is lacking in all but the graphical area, but even here they've arguably been matched by some upcoming titles.

Sound is barely above average, with GT4 resorting to generic, unrealistic sounds.

On the physics side the cars drive great, but still lack finesse in the tyre grip area with a tendency to swap ends violently.

Online is extremely basic, but again GT5P is just a demo.

The tracks look great but lack detail in the surface, they're just far too smooth. Tyre build-up, gravel brought onto the the track are lacking, as is the atmosphere on a race weekend.

Weather, none, damage , none, day/night transitions, none. All must be priorities in my, and most sim racers, belief, considering the resources and technology available to PD.

That's one heck of a checklist to work and deliver on, I'd prefare to see some results before jumping on the GT is king bandwagon. Ever more cars and tracks shouldn't hold back technical innovation, there's only so many cars you can drive.

You know were I stand, I prefare this side of the fence as opposed to those who argue against the quality of iRacing and it's damage system, the dismissal of NFS Shift despite the most highly acclaimed sim team and physics programmer of recent years behind it, not wanting damage to spoil the beauty of the cars, taking the **** out of the respect inside sim racing guys etc.

It's over to you PD, bring the excitement and innovation back to the GT series, don't settle for good enough.
 
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JAGUAR1977
It's over to you PD, bring the excitement and innovation back to the GT series, don't settle for good enough.
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Well, here's one for you. I hopped into GTR Evo, which is arguably one of the best offering from PC racing, at least from Simbin. Others differ, but that's to be expected. This is after a good stint with Prologue for about an hour. I wanted to enjoy some race car action on some new tracks with sim physics. And...

I was disappointed. The physics weren't much better. The sounds weren't really any better. The force feedback wasn't any better. The damage was actually pretty lame. The graphics blow.

So, why is that? Was I being a GT fanboy and refusing to like it? Quite the opposite. When the PC fried the FFB in my DF Pro wheel, I missed it quite a bit and couldn't wait to get back into it. You know, race cars with serious physics. New tracks. I still want to throw it around with the G25.

It's the fact that Prologue really is that good. I think you're never going to be happy because you're always going to be comparing a certain engine or muffler note, a certain damage look, and no game is alike in that department. Not one. You need to realize this, or you're going to regret buying GT5. And we won't listen to you then. We'll be too busy spending time in racing heaven instead of being as nitpicky as a mother-in-law. ;)
 
GTR EVO is based on 4-5 year old PC tech from GTR2.

The latest and greatest, tech wise, will be GT5, Forza 3, Codemasters F1/Dirt2, SMS's NFS Shift/Ferrari project and rFactor 2.

All but rFactor 2 are destined for consoles, that's why there's more pressure on PD and Sony to deliver.
 
Tenacious D
It's the fact that Prologue really is that good. I think you're never going to be happy because you're always going to be comparing a certain engine or muffler note, a certain damage look, and no game is alike in that department. Not one.
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Dont think your getting anywhere with Jag mate...

Regards P Digital, i would like to point out that if anything Turn 10 and other PC games have copied alot from what the GT series started. Yes they have done some ground breaking things but Id also like to put down the following credits they managed over the years in changing the racing game genre with many firsts and if we are honest here with every release they have set a high standard and technical high standard.

GT one of the first games to use upgrades/component swapping for cars
GT4 the first game with a good photo mode, it even allowed printing
GT the first game to make replays look good
GT Concept the first console game to support 3 screens (system link)
GT5P the first racing game and still yet (18 months later) the only one to date on ANY console that offers 16 car races with 60FPS and in a 1080p res
GT5P to date also has the best looking car models and high level of paint/ finish seen in ANY racing game including PC

Credit were credit is due but I applaud the people at Polphony Digital.
 
JAGUAR1977
GTR EVO is based on 4-5 year old PC tech from GTR2.
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So, its one of the newest games and hes making a fair comparison. We cant be responsible for the tech etc used the point is that is the latest sim game to be released on the PC.
 
JAGUAR1977
GTR EVO is based on 4-5 year old PC tech from GTR2.
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That's not the reason why the physics aren't great. They lack the realism they were denied when they carried over from GTR2. I still play GTR2 to this day, and there's no argument that even the little ol' Lotus in that game is harder to drive fast than most of the cars in Race Pro with no aids.
The latest and greatest, tech wise, will be GT5, Forza 3, Codemasters F1/Dirt2, SMS's NFS Shift/Ferrari project and rFactor 2.
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Except DiRT 2 is probably going to be just like GRiD 2. Arcadey as can be....
 
Again about NFS Shift... in the link that i posted, EA said that they DON'T WANT to compete with GT, Forza or Grid, they only use those games as target of quality.
And if EA thinks Grid is a SIM, and they say that NFS Shift won't fight in the same “sim style” as Grid, what do you expect from it ?

The NFS franchise really needs a good game, and hope Shift do it well.
You talk about Dirt 2... well all you are saying is based on a video, but you have to remenber that even Haze and Lair looks good in promo videos...
 
Cocomoto
The NFS franchise really needs a good game, and hope Shift do it well.
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Which is why I was happy to see it going back to a ProStreet-esque gameplay. I may be alone here, but for once, I was extremely happy to see the NFS series ditch the street racing & the attempt at turning the game into a rolling movie.

TBH, the only titles I have really enjoyed have been Most Wanted (and that was merely for the rush of running from the police) and ProStreet. I loved the attempt at recreating amateur-like racing series from the road racing to the drifting to the drag strips and doing it all as part of a "Weekend Event". Given they did once again add a story to it, but I liked it. The fact that they're going after that again makes me quite interested in Shift, esp with the modifications this time actually making sense (Ex. The Audi RS4 sporting a DTM-like bodykit).

If the physics are anything at least like ProStreet, I will be satisfied. Once again, that was a nice change from the usually arcade physics from previous titles.
 
JAGUAR1977
GTR EVO is based on 4-5 year old PC tech from GTR2.
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Two points, and then I really need to just drop this for good.
  • So? If it wasn't crap physics 4 or 5 years ago, why would it be now?
  • Race 07 is included now. How old is it's technology? ;)
I bought GTR2 with my G25 wheel, so I'll see if it's leaps and wheelies better than Evo, but from what I read at one of the sim racing boards, opinion is heavily slanted in favor of GTR Evo being just fine. Unless G2 has some ignorant version of Starforce on it, in which case I doubt I'll mess with it.

By the way, I played around some with rFactor and I wasn't blown away. It still seems that Live For Speed smokes just about everyone in sheer realistic physics.
 
Tenacious D
Two points, and then I really need to just drop this for good.
  • So? If it wasn't crap physics 4 or 5 years ago, why would it be now?
  • Race 07 is included now. How old is it's technology? ;)
I bought GTR2 with my G25 wheel, so I'll see if it's leaps and wheelies better than Evo, but from what I read at one of the sim racing boards, opinion is heavily slanted in favor of GTR Evo being just fine. Unless G2 has some ignorant version of Starforce on it, in which case I doubt I'll mess with it.
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The physics are fundamentally good, significantly better than GT4 and a match for GT5P, it's just an old engine. For everyone that says GTR2 is perfect, you'll find another who prefares the slightly grippier Evo physics, there's still much guess work and testing to perfect physics, even GT5P has been through a couple of iterations.

SMS's physics engine calculates more data points and is quicker, that enables them to better calculate tyre grip etc. and reduce lag from your inputs, they also have the guy from RBR working with them. With that in place they are offering three difficulty levels in NFS Shift, with the sim mode, they say, being the best on the market.

BTW, essentially the same engine powers GTR2, EVO, Rfactor, Race, Rfactor, GT Legends and a few other things, that's why so many mods are easily interchangeable. The whole PC market is stagnating, iRacing's too expensive for many, so all hopes rest on Rfacter 2 and mod teams. The large development teams are joining PD and Turn 10 on consoles, so everyone needs to up their game. GT5 isn't competing with the already established sims on the market, but next gen ones.
 
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Jag, point id like to make, dont judge any game with its PR, its HYPE or indeed past reputation of the devs or studio.

Ive got an idea lets wait till each game is released and decide then whats good about each, whats not so good and only then make the decision.

Discussing now what could, will or wont be when none of us are in any position to know any different is a waste of time.

Im happy so many games are coming and variation and competition within the games market can only be a good thing to not only give us more choice but also for the level of quality to be raised.
 
You could have said that much better then, PSNk. ;)

Anyway, I'm curious now about a new German video which is going to be translated to death by tomorrow. And with it coming, this may be the break in the dam which will preceed a trickle of info becoming a small flood. Back to my thread...
 
All we can do at this point is sit and wait patiently with our eyes and ears open for "THE BIG BANG" . approximaitly (21) twentyone more days to go before E3 2009 correct me if am wrong.
 
ZANELE
All we can do at this point is sit and wait patiently with our eyes and ears open for "THE BIG BANG" . approximaitly (21) twentyone more days to go before E3 2009 correct me if am wrong.
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I thought it was longer, I hope we at least get a solid release date.
 
Ok if the worst happens and there is no info at E3 at all do we feel that the game will be released at some point in late 2010? Because I've got a funny feeling that GT5 will now not appear until late 2010 or later. There is just such a lack of any real information coming out. Here we are in May 2009 and I would imagine that some info would have surfaced by this point if the game is indeed to be released 4th quarter 2009 or 1st quarter 2010? I’ve been a fan of all the GT games but can’t recall the build up to the release of the individual games. For example when GT4 came out was there this much silence regarding the game (with similar time scales to debut as GT5) before the release? I’m not saying that Amar212 is wrong, maybe our interpretation of the text is wrong. I hope I’m wrong. I hope there is detail given at E3, I just wouldn’t be surprised if this thing doesn’t happen until late 2010 and we get a pretty good update of GT5P at the end of 2009.
 
gazcanuk
Ok if the worst happens and there is no info at E3 at all do we feel that the game will be released at some point in late 2010? Because I've got a funny feeling that GT5 will now not appear until late 2010 or later. There is just such a lack of any real information coming out. Here we are in May 2009 and I would imagine that some info would have surfaced by this point if the game is indeed to be released 4th quarter 2009 or 1st quarter 2010? I’ve been a fan of all the GT games but can’t recall the build up to the release of the individual games. For example when GT4 came out was there this much silence regarding the game (with similar time scales to debut as GT5) before the release? I’m not saying that Amar212 is wrong, maybe our interpretation of the text is wrong. I hope I’m wrong. I hope there is detail given at E3, I just wouldn’t be surprised if this thing doesn’t happen until late 2010 and we get a pretty good update of GT5P at the end of 2009.
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I am fairly confident it will be a December 2009 release, there are a number of sources suggesting this year, it seems perfect timeing for PD and Sony, missing the christmas release would really be missing a trick.
 
PrudentBear
Let's hope so for their sake. They're going to need every penny by the looks of it.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Sony-reports-1-billion-annual-apf-15239492.html
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The PlayStation brand is only a small percentage of that loss, and the story misconstrues the loss as being due to a lack of console sales, when the truth is that they were losing money on each console up until recently. If they had sold more they would have lost more. Sony themselves do not comment on the PlayStation brand, and that article forgets to mention the still going PS2.

That said, now is when they do start to expect money to come in from the PS3, assuming they don't price drop down into another level of loss. So, if they do get a ton of console sales from the GT brand now it will be perfect timing.

And now I wonder if they haven't gone from pushing PD to get GT out soon after launch (like GT3) to getting out soon after the console becomes profitable, which would explain why it is taking so long. It is quite possible that PD has been given the open window to take the time necessary to make it how they want it.
 
FoolKiller
The PlayStation brand is only a small percentage of that loss, and the story misconstrues the loss as being due to a lack of console sales, when the truth is that they were losing money on each console up until recently. If they had sold more they would have lost more. Sony themselves do not comment on the PlayStation brand, and that article forgets to mention the still going PS2.
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Sorry, but you are wrong here - they would not have lost more money if they sold more consoles in the past. Consoles do not get cheaper to produce because time goes by (although time may play a small part in lowering costs, but mainly due to the learning curve of employees). Parts and production costs become cheaper with economies of scale and those are achieved when you simply produce more. If sony had sold a lot more PS3's they would have benefited from economies of scale a lot sooner, which would have led to lower production costs in the past, i.e. profitable console sales for sony.

...and don't forget that more consoles on the market means more games sold, and >90% of the sales price of each additional game is pure profit, since the variable costs of selling that game are very small (Blue-Ray disc, packaging, shipping etc.)
 
rob_0926
Parts and production costs become cheaper with economies of scale and those are achieved when you simply produce more. If sony had sold a lot more PS3's they would have benefited from economies of scale a lot sooner, which would have led to lower production costs in the past, i.e. profitable console sales for sony.
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Yeah, but they were already at a sales pace to match the PS2 and 360 at their same point in their life cycles. It would have been very hard for them to have sold enough more to actually change it enough to make a difference. I'm not even sure Wii numbers could have made a difference of more than a month or two. Remember that, factoring in the price drop since launch, to break even they managed to already knock at least $300 off the cost of production, which is a 25%-30% difference.

As for the software sales profit issue, it is hard to etermine how much it offsets hardware losses without finding exact details on console losses vs attach rates by date, and then calculating which games were Sony developed, which were first-party, and which were third-party. Of course, then attach rates do not take into account PSN sales.
 
rob_0926
...and don't forget that more consoles on the market means more games sold, and >90% of the sales price of each additional game is pure profit, since the variable costs of selling that game are very small (Blue-Ray disc, packaging, shipping etc.)
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You just forgot the development, that account for a big chunck of the cost.
Other than that, you're right
 
Stevisiov.
I am fairly confident it will be a December 2009 release, there are a number of sources suggesting this year, it seems perfect timeing for PD and Sony, missing the christmas release would really be missing a trick.
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+1

KY did mention he wouldn't announce GT5 until the last possible moment, and surprise us all.
 

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