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- Thread starter trobes29
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- 1,219
- Cambridge
- trobes29
Just as a better explanation here. The primary reason I am not reverting the results to what they were before we resumed racing is because ever since the backlash from ending the Red Bull Ring race during Season 1 early due to rain, I made it a rule that we would never end a race due to rain. Now because of last night I am under flack for changing a rule. Because of this, I am not going to change another rule to revert the results, as that would just make my rules even more inconsistent. The only plausible options are
1: Leave the results as they are
2: Nullify all points from the race
3: Re-run the last 7 or so laps. This is almost guaranteed not to happen as it went poorly ever time it's happened previously in INBD, and the time it happened in VRR also went poorly.
1: Leave the results as they are
2: Nullify all points from the race
3: Re-run the last 7 or so laps. This is almost guaranteed not to happen as it went poorly ever time it's happened previously in INBD, and the time it happened in VRR also went poorly.
- 4,716
- Indiana
- CWM_Spirit
In THIS circumstance, it'd be best to revert the results. Red Bull Ring was different, you had the option to reset weather and go again right there. That's why you got the backlash there. That didn't happen in this instance.
Look, this shouldn't effect me either way. I'm just trying to look out for the integrity of the championship and integrity of the race itself. I know you don't want to tell people they finished worst than they thought but the positions they gained were under arbitrary, uncommon, unsafe, and according to your rules, prohibited conditions.
Think about it from multiple perspectives and seriously consider the ramifications this may have for disadvantaged drivers.
Look, this shouldn't effect me either way. I'm just trying to look out for the integrity of the championship and integrity of the race itself. I know you don't want to tell people they finished worst than they thought but the positions they gained were under arbitrary, uncommon, unsafe, and according to your rules, prohibited conditions.
Think about it from multiple perspectives and seriously consider the ramifications this may have for disadvantaged drivers.
- 1,150
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- GTP_KrispyKrim
- 4,716
- Indiana
- CWM_Spirit
The problem I have with nullifying points is that then the whole race we ran beforehand means absolutely nothing. We took the time out of our day, practiced a lot (at least I did), and tuned these cars to perfection and should get the benefits from that, to the extent of the red flag that didn't happen. I'm 99% sure any other series (even NASCAR-based) would do the reversion, it's the most fair way to go about it. A series just can't make a mistake and not make it right, that's just straight up immoral in my opinion. The only way to make things 100% right and in compliance with the rules stated in the drivers' meeting is to revert to before we went back green.
- 27
- United States
- tvjmdajuphgj
Or if everyone's cool with it rerun the laps under dry conditions like we orginally were
- 4,716
- Indiana
- CWM_Spirit
That doesn't really work. Just opens the door for more drama and controversy.
- 965
- Eastern USA
- Peelster1
In theory, it is fair to rerun those laps if everyone attends. In practice, rerunning those laps hasn't worked well in the past when it's been attempted. As far as I know, whenever that method has been used it's at first received positively, but after the rerun there is much negativity and we really don't need more of that around here.
Nullifying the results doesn't make sense here either, people showed up and took time out of their day for nothing if this option is used.
As far as a revert to the point before resuming the race, it's the most fair and professional option, however I can also understand trobes reasoning for wanting to stay consistent with "races never end due to rain". In this particular case however, we resumed the race when we should not have. In any other case, the procedure would've (and has been) to reset the lobby as if we had a rain delay. In this case, it's inconsistent with what we have done in the past in regards to rain, which is why I believe a revert to before that restart is the most professional solution.
It's a catch-22, either trobes reverts the standings to before that restart (in which case it's inconsistent with the past "races never end due to rain" or trobes keeps the standings as is, and is inconsistent with "if the rain becomes too much to race in, the race will have a 'rain delay' and the track will be reset to dry conditions" as has always been done in the past. Either way trobes, you're going to have to be inconsistent with something regardless of what decision is made.
Nullifying the results doesn't make sense here either, people showed up and took time out of their day for nothing if this option is used.
As far as a revert to the point before resuming the race, it's the most fair and professional option, however I can also understand trobes reasoning for wanting to stay consistent with "races never end due to rain". In this particular case however, we resumed the race when we should not have. In any other case, the procedure would've (and has been) to reset the lobby as if we had a rain delay. In this case, it's inconsistent with what we have done in the past in regards to rain, which is why I believe a revert to before that restart is the most professional solution.
It's a catch-22, either trobes reverts the standings to before that restart (in which case it's inconsistent with the past "races never end due to rain" or trobes keeps the standings as is, and is inconsistent with "if the rain becomes too much to race in, the race will have a 'rain delay' and the track will be reset to dry conditions" as has always been done in the past. Either way trobes, you're going to have to be inconsistent with something regardless of what decision is made.
- 4,716
- Indiana
- CWM_Spirit
Which was the opposite of the "precedent" set at Red Bull Ring, where the race was stopped when it should have resumed. Therefore I don't really see it as a precedent at all and is only very marginally and technically inconsistent in my book. Ideally the results should be reverted, but if it comes down to re-running the closing laps then I'd be more for just keeping them the way they are now, as unfair as it is. There have been examples of NASCAR fixing mistakes they've made (starting the race on a wet track) and examples of them not doing anything about it (SHR getting screwed over in Vegas qualifying).
I think I'm more against re-running those closing laps as then we should have been under a "parc ferme" condition over the extended Red Flag and no set up changes should be made. We can't enforce that now. Someone who had a terrible car Friday night could show up with a lightning-fast car. We can't prove they didn't change anything and the integrity of the closing laps is compromised that way.
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- 1,219
- Cambridge
- trobes29
"Once it's 75%, regardless of what drivers say, it will be a Red Flag."
My exact words during the driver's meeting. I never stated we wouldn't, or COULDN'T, go back Green. Just said there would be a Red Flag, and never said what we would do after that point. So, 75% came, we threw the Reg Flag, did what the Rule said, then decided to go back Green. So we technically didn't go against what I said.
And also, since I never said "Once the Red Flag comes out we will back out and change the track back to dry conditions." That would technically be going against what I said too.
My exact words during the driver's meeting. I never stated we wouldn't, or COULDN'T, go back Green. Just said there would be a Red Flag, and never said what we would do after that point. So, 75% came, we threw the Reg Flag, did what the Rule said, then decided to go back Green. So we technically didn't go against what I said.
And also, since I never said "Once the Red Flag comes out we will back out and change the track back to dry conditions." That would technically be going against what I said too.
- 4,716
- Indiana
- CWM_Spirit
All of this isn't in the rule book, but it's something you have done before. Just like how never ending a race under Red is something that isn't in the rule book, but it is something you've stood by. You can't have it both ways here. You can't stand by something that isn't in the rules, but has been done before while defending a mistake you made by the same logic.
My post above, what I'm trying to say is that this is something that I don't think has ever happened before. It's time to set a new standard for situations like this, and have it in the regulations so we won't cross this road again. We really can't pull the precedent card here, it's time to set a new precedent for a new, arbitrary situation. All of us are asking that you make it the right decision. Everybody I've talked to specifically about this situation has agreed that the only way to go about it is to revert the standings to where they were at the original Red Flag.
- 1,219
- Cambridge
- trobes29
Yes, the Rulebook has been updated for Rain. And you're right, non of this is in the Rules, but we've never had a situation like this in the past like you said, so there really isn't a cut, set in stone way to have handled the rain, and the way I handled it never went against what I said. Regardless, the Rules for rain on Oval and Road are in the Rulebook now.
And also, I will gladly revert or nullify the results if the majority of the drivers involved vote for one or the other.
- 4,716
- Indiana
- CWM_Spirit
My vote is to revert the standings to as they were at the moment of the caution when the rain exceeded 75%.
Here's what I would have in the regulations regarding situations like this:
- In the circumstance were the race is stopped after halfway, and an overnight period had passed (overnight meaning majority of the drivers went to bed not for a nap but to actually sleep at night or), the standings will be reverted to the moment of the last caution flag and the race will be called. This excludes situations where it is in the best interest of fairness and integrity of the race to revert the standings to a time before the last caution flag. Regarding overnight periods, if it is the best interest of the drivers' to abandon the race and sleep in preparation for the next day's activities, it can also be instated and the race is either concluded early or the race will be postponed to a later date. If it is prior to halfway in the race, it will be abandoned and postponed to a later date with a complete restart. If the race is exactly halfway through, then the league will make a decision in the drivers' best interest regarding next day work, school, and other important activities.
- For raced that happen in the morning or mid-day (using the relative time zones of the majority of the drivers), the race can be stopped early at a Red Flag if it is after halfway and it's in the best interest of the drivers regarding any important activities they have following the race. If the race started really late and it is before halfway, the race can be abandoned and postponed if it is in the best interest of the drivers.
Although it really shouldn't come down to a vote. The drivers will just vote in accordance to if they lose those unfair spots they gained/lost. Much like how they voted to continue in the monsoon or not based on if they thought they could or couldn't gain something out of it.
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- 4,716
- Indiana
- CWM_Spirit
I'm saying it's not really a matter to vote on, just like the vote to go back green. It's not objective at all, there's going to be bias regardless of what people really think. You need to make the decision to correct your mistake, and revert the standings so those who got screwed aren't losing points in an unfair manner. The people who gained positions in that mess of a finish didn't earn their finish in a fair way with the track conditions being the way they were.
To me, it's really not that hard to justify reverting the standings. It's the only professional, fair, respectful, etc. way to go about it.
- 4,716
- Indiana
- CWM_Spirit
So my vote and opinion doesn't even matter? The fact that it was an organizational mistake and people were unfairly disadvantaged doesn't even matter?
Driver | B/A | (Δ) | Points Δ | Vote
GTP_Bambi 1/1 (0) No Change - Said it should have been stopped
trobes29 3/2 (+1) 2 points gained - Hosting vote
Dcrimnal 2/3 (-1) 2 points lost - Said it should have been stopped
nascarfan1400 6/4 (+2) 2 points gained - TBD
Jayden5536 8/5 (+3) 3 points gained - TBD
BRRT_Angel 4/6 (-2) 2 points lost - Said it shoud have been stopped
tvjmdajuphgj 7/7 (0) No Change - TBD
Peelster1 5/8 (-3) 3 points lost - Said it should have been stopped
Right now, unless you need to hear it from them here, or if the "leader's opinion doesn't matter" like in the race, 50% of the drivers in the race feel the race should be called at that Red Flag.
- 1,150
- Georgia
- GTP_KrispyKrim
I did say it need to be stopped so my vote is that we revert points back to when the race was stopped unless we all get on Friday and redo the final laps.
- 4,716
- Indiana
- CWM_Spirit
No.
- 1,150
- Georgia
- GTP_KrispyKrim
- 965
- Eastern USA
- Peelster1
I've said it earlier and I'll say it again.
If you are calling a Red Flag for rain past a certain percentage, unless the Red Flag is to put on Wet tires (in which case a Yellow Flag would actually be sufficient.) then you shouldn't be resuming the race. The Red Flag was called at 75% because it was earlier deemed that past that percentage it would be too dangerous to race. Wet tires were not put on, and this means we resumed the race in worse conditions than the Red Flag was called for in the first place. In what universe does that make sense? 75% is too dangerous to race in but 76%-100% is okay? No.
As far as why this shouldn't be a vote, Bambi already stated the obvious bias of if you gained spots you vote to keep it as is, if you lost spots you vote to revert. (Sure, some people have more integrity then that, but voting got us in this mess in the first place) Something that affects the standings in such a manner shouldn't come down to a vote, but should be a decision made by league organizers.
Also, @Whitetail's chart is inaccurate. I checked the video and @DcrRaikkonen voted to resume the race.
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