Track Limit Abuse by most Top 10 Drivers

[JacksHerer]

I'm applying real world logic to an argument about opinions.

I don't object to how people choose the play a game, using aids or not using a wheel or not, using the same view, it really doesn't matter to me what lines people choose. But there are many ways to play this game that you can compete against yourself and have fun.

Give your head a wobble is a fun way to say have a think about the other perspective.

People who are driving to the penalty triggers instead of a visible track are maybe searching to be the fastest they can and compare themselves to the leaderboards. I'm trying to have fun driving a game on tracks that someone took time to design.

I make the occasional mistake and put more than two wheels outside the white lines, I would hate a penalty everytime I did that.

 

[JacksHerer]

I don't really understand the idea of 'driving to the penalty system' you drive within the rules and the laws... I don't live my life to the penalty system, I just follow the laws... Also I don't understand 'give your head a wobble' ?

Edit;
Guess this needs asking again;



Why have you assumed that they are different?

One is visible the other is invisible.

 

[lav01]

I raced cars for many years. I did not see anything wrong with his lines. Fast drivers in real life cut corners like that all the time. the only things in real life you have to be aware of is knocking out your alignment (based on how tough your car is) and cutting down a tire (depending on the rumble strips, if the inside is sharp), there is not really much traction on the inside tires on most corners anyway. Obviously, those two potential problems in real racing, do NOT apply in a video game. I have run those things over thousands of times in real life. I have never cut a tire, but the alignment goes away real quick. Looked like a clean run. Also, like the guy in the video said, which is true, you can run that stuff in qualifying, as you only need 1 clean lap usually. And you get a bunch of laps for that 1. In a race you cannot take as many chances. Other cars, potential spin, etc... You knock the alignment early, and guess what....that car will burn through tires like crazy. On a qualifier, who cares, go to pits and fix it. Get back out. Again that does not apply in a video game. Just watch out for the tears on the track, it might get slippery.

Good lap man!

 

[baldgye]

One is visible the other is invisible.

I don’t agree with PD’s track limits, but they are clearly defined and visible on track. Just because you can push past the white line dosnt mean that suddenly your outside of the tracks geometry and, like some speed runner you’ve glitched through the game and found a secret fast path.

It’s fair enough to see things from other angles, but you don’t seem interested in doing the same and present your stance on the subject as factual.

Bottom line is, we don’t know much about how PD defines its tracks limits or why, they do a pretty horrible job with communicating with (at least the English speaking) community, so things are assumed and conclusions reached without much substance to back it up.

All we can do is what @Scaff has been pointing out and look what they have done in the past.
I don’t see any reason to think that the track designer wanted the limits to be the white lines and I don’t see any reason as to why anyone at PD would cause internal issues by going against what was designed. I imagine (as GT has been doing this for so long) that track design, limits and even style is a team effort and everyone works together to a consistent design idea.

But maybe your right, maybe I should ‘wobble my head’ and ignore what evidence there is for how PD designs tracks and track limits and just go with my feelings. I don’t like them, so it must be wrong.

 

[JacksHerer]

I've not tried telling anyone what is right or wrong, nor tried to say that the track is where the invisible penalty triggers are.

What I do think is factual is that the track is between the white lines.

I'm not arguing about limits, I am happy to argue that the track is defined by white lines.

 

[Outspacer]

I'm applying real world logic to an argument about opinions.

I don't object to how people choose the play a game, using aids or not using a wheel or not, using the same view, it really doesn't matter to me what lines people choose. But there are many ways to play this game that you can compete against yourself and have fun.

Give your head a wobble is a fun way to say have a think about the other perspective.

People who are driving to the penalty triggers instead of a visible track are maybe searching to be the fastest they can and compare themselves to the leaderboards. I'm trying to have fun driving a game on tracks that someone took time to design.

I make the occasional mistake and put more than two wheels outside the white lines, I would hate a penalty everytime I did that.

Real world logic, as amply shown in previous posts, does not define the track as simply between the white lines and that isn't what real life racers follow. At the least, normal corner kerbing is usually included as being part of the track.

Regardless though, GTS clearly isn't trying for the nth degree of realism on the fantasy tracks. Kerbs that are wider than the car... it's clear that they are meant to be used. And by that logic, the same goes for any allowed area beyond that.

Now, I think that T4 is a much less interesting / challenging corner with the extra area - it makes the little crest no bother at all. Following white lines + kerb, you have to think about your line more and about when you come on full power. (But re. the hairpin, I couldn't care less, because it doesn't change how challenging the corner is).

It isn't like the penalty line is pushed back some arbitrary amount everywhere to give some leniency. It's placed hard on the edge of various visible features - intentionally so you know where it is. So...

One is visible the other is invisible.

No, they are both visible.

 

[TamasToth]

This whole topic is the real answer for the question: simulator or a simple game...
There should not be any question after the first corner of the video in a serious and fair motorsport event. 4 wheels out of the white line - lap time dropped. No problem, no penalties, just go on, lap time will be registered if you kept all the way on the track. The 2 white lines is the edges of the track. Not the curb, not the curb outside the curb, not the dashed lines, not the pavement outside the curbs. The 2 white lines. The is so simple. Not a big deal to use the kerbs with 2 wheels and keeping 2 other inside the track... I mean not technically but mentally.

 

[Scaff]

This whole topic is the real answer for the question: simulator or a simple game...
There should not be any question after the first corner of the video in a serious and fair motorsport event. 4 wheels out of the white line - lap time dropped. No problem, no penalties, just go on, lap time will be registered if you kept all the way on the track. The 2 white lines is the edges of the track. Not the curb, not the curb outside the curb, not the dashed lines, not the pavement outside the curbs. The 2 white lines. The is so simple. Not a big deal to use the kerbs with 2 wheels and keeping 2 other inside the track... I mean not technically but mentally.

Do you really want to see the number of real world photos that show that's not the case at all?

Serious and fair real world motorsport doesn't define it the way you have at all, I even posted a link to the MSA track guidelines that quite clearly states as much for any race that runs under its guidelines (which is most UK motorsport).

The white lines are not the only boundary to a race track.

 

[GTR365]

tbh I thought every corner seemed realistic in terms of track limit, asides from turn 4

IMO, I judged two track violations. One being the inner you quoted & the second being outer on exit where driver tracked wide into red runoff with both axles past curb.

 

[Factor41]

You missed my point,
When they tried racing the track limits and had 2 or 3 cars trying to race through a section and found that the penalty system was ruining the fun of racing, they expanded the penalty limit. They didn't expand the track.

racing is the number 1 objective. If people got a penalty everytime they had more than two wheels off track, then the 'bashers' would exploit that and push people off the track at every opportunity. Fair drivers may not dare to overtake at the same time as avoiding contact.

This is a very important point. There's a point on the outside of the Brands Hatch start/finish where sticking a tyre on the grass gets you a penalty. There's no advantage to being on the grass at that point, but if you do get run wide in a battle for position, you've then got a pointless penalty and the enjoyment from the close battle is effectively over because you've got to serve the penalty.

Similarly, on the Dragon Trail daily yesterday, someone across me on the first left-hander into the S-bends and forced me up onto the grass at a place where there was no advantage to be gained - I got a 3 second penalty which wouldn't naturally run down within the remaining two laps so that was it, my race with him was over through no fault of my own.

I'd much rather have a bit of leeway to push boundaries rather than have to worry about keeping precisely within the white lines. I'm sure most people would agree that the cut of T4 on the OP was a bit excessive, but the rest of that lap was, as far as I can see, textbook.

The 2 white lines is the edges of the track. Not the curb, not the curb outside the curb, not the dashed lines, not the pavement outside the curbs. The 2 white lines.

The problem with that statement is that, actually, it's completely incorrect. And once again, I refer you to the TRACK LIMITS (CIRCUIT RACING) Guidance notes, 2014 by the Motor Sports Association of the UK. There are even pictures for you to look at

 

[zzz_pt]

Regardless though, GTS clearly isn't trying for the nth degree of realism on the fantasy tracks. Kerbs that are wider than the car... it's clear that they are meant to be used. And by that logic, the same goes for any allowed area beyond that.

And this has been like that since GT1. Example: inside of turn 7 and outside of turn 8 and 16 at Grand Valley Speedway. For reference, TRL_IMMORTAL's WR.

No one in their right mind will call IMMORTAL anything but an alien. He probably holds more WRs than all of us in this thread combined. ^^

 

[TamasToth]

There are even pictures for you to look at

I can not see any picture of a car with 4 wheels outside the white line.

 

[banckzy]

This is a very important point. There's a point on the outside of the Brands Hatch start/finish where sticking a tyre on the grass gets you a penalty. There's no advantage to being on the grass at that point, but if you do get run wide in a battle for position, you've then got a pointless penalty and the enjoyment from the close battle is effectively over because you've got to serve the penalty.

Similarly, on the Dragon Trail daily yesterday, someone across me on the first left-hander into the S-bends and forced me up onto the grass at a place where there was no advantage to be gained - I got a 3 second penalty which wouldn't naturally run down within the remaining two laps so that was it, my race with him was over through no fault of my own.

I'd much rather have a bit of leeway to push boundaries rather than have to worry about keeping precisely within the white lines. I'm sure most people would agree that the cut of T4 on the OP was a bit excessive, but the rest of that lap was, as far as I can see, textbook.



The problem with that statement is that, actually, it's completely incorrect. And once again, I refer you to the TRACK LIMITS (CIRCUIT RACING) Guidance notes, 2014 by the Motor Sports Association of the UK. There are even pictures for you to look at

haha based on that I think we'd all be getting penalties on every corner

 

[Scaff]

I can not see any picture of a car with 4 wheels outside the white line.

Really?

The thread is littered with them.

Here's a few

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...st-top-10-drivers.373619/page-4#post-12159659

 

[Tornado]

I can not see any picture of a car with 4 wheels outside the white line.

Which wasn't what he was responding to you saying.

 

[JacksHerer]

I've nothing against the OP video, it's eye opening to what the game allows.
But from the MSA which I had never read until just now...

Q14.4.2.a states that: ‘the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track’ Therefore competitors can drive their cars onto – but not beyond – the white lines at the edge of the track without penalty.

Q14.4.2.b states that: ‘a driver will be judged to have left the track if any wheel of the car either goes beyond the outer edge of any kerb or goes beyond the white line where there is no kerb’ For illustrative purposes, the images below show cars in acceptable and unacceptable positions.

Edit : blah blah blah
All of the above penalties, plus alternative penalties, are available to officials if a competitor is judged to have gained position(s) as a result of exceeding track limits.

 

[Skiddy]

Really?

The thread is littered with them.

Here's a few

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...st-top-10-drivers.373619/page-4#post-12159659

I think he meant the pictures in the link provided by Factor41...

 

[Scaff]

I think he meant the pictures in the link provided by Factor41...

Ahh, OK.

 

[Outspacer]

And this has been like that since GT1. Example: inside of turn 7 and outside of turn 8 and 16 at Grand Valley Speedway. For reference, TRL_IMMORTAL's WR.

No one in their right mind will call IMMORTAL anything but an alien. He probably holds more WRs than all of us in this thread combined. ^^

Well indeed. I thought about including "in contrast to real world tracks in the game", but even there PD don't appear to strive for the nth degree of realism - so someone would've picked up on that rather than my point! At least with a fantasy track it's safe(r) to say it's how PD intended.

 

[Scaff]

I've nothing against the OP video, it's eye opening to what the game allows.
But from the MSA which I had never read until just now...

Q14.4.2.a states that: ‘the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track’ Therefore competitors can drive their cars onto – but not beyond – the white lines at the edge of the track without penalty.

Q14.4.2.b states that: ‘a driver will be judged to have left the track if any wheel of the car either goes beyond the outer edge of any kerb or goes beyond the white line where there is no kerb’ For illustrative purposes, the images below show cars in acceptable and unacceptable positions.

View attachment 708876

And yet the numerous BTCC photos (which race under the MSA regs) show the rules being broken repeatedly, and trust me penalties don't come from them (well until Alan Gow has a fit and then one corner gets picked for extra enforcement).

And a drivers view on them.

https://www.autosport.com/national/news/112242/video-uk-racing-tracklimits-row

 

[JacksHerer]

Yeh I looked at those in air photos and wondered if that was the line being taken every lap, ie deemed to be an advantage by the driver. If everyone is using the same lines then it doesn't matter.
Also wondered if their tires didn't touch the ground outside of the white lines lol

 

[TamasToth]

... I meant in the pdf you were kindly referred to me.
In general, I do not think there's any more point in this story. IRL there are stewards, in this game there are scripts and algorythms. There's a lot of room to improve.

you changed your argument

I didn't changed anything. (Maybe my english is not good enough to make my point clear?) I treat the white lines (and the primary kerbs - when they are) as the track's border, as most usually IRL. And when respecting the borders, I mean keeping inside with at least 2 wheels.

It's also not a question that there are a lot of occasions when a car was out with 4 wheels and there was not any consequence. IRL that is the stewards' job. Leaving the track accidentally or by a mistake is not a big deal, unless the one and only aim of leaving was to gain some advantage. This has to be judged. You can show several photos of cars 4w outside of track boundaries, but on the other hand, you can hardly count the dropped laps of TCR, WTCC or other touring car series' qualy sessions and - what a surprise - the reason was: leaving the track with 4 wheels. For me, the topic starter video is a joke. It is nice in a hotlappers game, but can not be serious in terms of track racing.

(And also, there is consequences of this bug of the game: If you are defending the inside line - and I mean the usual, IRL-like inside line -, you can not be sure that there's not any "more inside line", from where the attacker can come and push you out.)

 

[Woodybobs]

If everyone is using the same lines then it doesn't matter.

By that logic it would only take one to stay between the lines for the rest to be penalised. There are probably drivers who wish track limits were entirely set between the lines + curbs. When they're extended beyond that they just accept it.

 

[JacksHerer]

I see it more as above or below 50% in any particular race.
I lose time to the cars ahead and see cars catching me up on nurburg gp, It doesn't bother me because I'm playing my own game, I know I will reach a DR point that I can't progress without doing what 'everyone else' is doing. I've already started using the M4 for GR4 races, and started thinking about using the M6 for bathurst races.
The game has only been out a few months and been limited to a few tracks, so this topic has come to light, I've never been one for watching other peoples replays as they may not have done the perfect line on every corner, just strung the best lap together.
I've played my whole GT life within the white lines, I put in a lot of time on GT Academy and came close to the leader times but never close enough, I was too old anyway. But now I have a niggling that I wasn't playing the same game.

I'm glad this thread has opened my eyes and others, there is no moral high ground or low. You just do what you need to survive or excel in a competitive game.

 

[TamasToth]

But now I have a niggling that I wasn't playing the same game.

That's the point. There are people trying to "simulate" a good drive, a track day, etc. And there are gamers trying to play a game to its limits. Completely different aims, results; completely different league.

 

[Woodybobs]

This thread has opened my eyes too. It never even entered my head to check if the actual track limits matched my idea of track limits.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I wonder if the clean race bonus is more strict than the penalty kicking in for cutting the track?

Like with the oversized kerbstones through the chicane at Dragon Trail. They don't need to be there, but imagine the chaos that would be caused if you couldn't take them at a reasonable pace...

Also the chicane at Nurbugring GP. If you get that JUST right, you can have all 4 wheels off the tarmac

EDIT: this was in reply to JacksHerer

Yeah imagine people would actually slow down properly for the chicane at Dragon Trail to avoid penalties or resets instead of pushing it so close to the walls any slight mistake ends in chaos.... Instead of the kerbs and extra space being there for safety, they're just there to invite disaster.

And in Nurb GP a lot of contact happens from people following the chicane while others seek the limits of the penalty system (or even ignore the easily scrubbed penalty)

 

[Factor41]

I can not see any picture of a car with 4 wheels outside the white line.

No, I did say that the taking of T4 and the hairpin in the OP were probably both due a penalty, but not every corner, like a lot of people seem to be saying. The majority of the lap was perfectly legal and within the defined bounds of the MSA - themselves a little tighter than the likes of ToCA choose to enforce.

 

[Outspacer]

And in Nurb GP a lot of contact happens from people following the chicane while others seek the limits of the penalty system (or even ignore the easily scrubbed penalty)

To be fair, a lot happens there anyway because it's a long hard braking zone... just like T1. Also, I find that cutting that chicane too close to the limit unsettles the car, and the last thing you want is someone getting their nose in before the final turn (or in quali, tenths can be easily lost there).

You can lose clean race bonus for some cases that don't trigger a penalty, but only because you can go off and not get one if you're going slowly (and/or coming back onto the track slowly), and maybe on some straights. I think for all the cases of corner cutting and going wide on exit (for advantage) the clean race bonus matches the penalties.

 

[TamasToth]

No, I did say that the taking of T4 in the OP was probably due a penalty, but not every corner, like a lot of people seem to be saying.

OK. Not every corner. And _probably_ due a penalty.
Even one corner (where serious time advantage occured) can be picked from this video and that should be enough. So this lap is perfect for this game, and values a big zero in real life, with anybody stewarding.
But seriously.. I am spending my time here and trying to explain the difference between gamer-hotlapping and fair IRL racing? And others spending their times trying to wash away that boundaries? No way. I quit.