Transgender Thread.

  • Thread starter Com Fox
  • 2,391 comments
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Transgender is...?

  • Ok for anyone

    Votes: 12 29.3%
  • Ok as long as it's binary (Male to Female or vice versa)

    Votes: 1 2.4%
  • Wrong

    Votes: 5 12.2%
  • No one's business except the person involved

    Votes: 20 48.8%
  • Don't care

    Votes: 3 7.3%

  • Total voters
    41
These 2 contradictory answers is the reason why I asked @Moglet. I think the misinformation and contradictory information out there is one of the reasons why there is not enough acceptance. People are afraid of what they don't understand.
They're not necessarily contradictory. I'd say it's relatively similar to the idea that queer is increasingly being used as an umbrella term in academia and some social circles. I may not describe myself personally as queer, but as a gay person, I'd fall under the umbrella of queer identities.

Someone who identifies as any sort of non-binary may not necessarily say 'hi I'm trans' but they'd fall under its use as an umbrella term.

Miriam-Webster
Definition of transgender
: of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity differs from the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth
especially: of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity is opposite the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth
The American Psychological Association and GLAAD both define it in a similar way as well:
APA
Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth.
GLAAD
An umbrella term for people whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from what is typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. People under the transgender umbrella may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms - including transgender. Some of those terms are defined below. Use the descriptive term preferred by the person. Many transgender people are prescribed hormones by their doctors to bring their bodies into alignment with their gender identity. Some undergo surgery as well. But not all transgender people can or will take those steps, and a transgender identity is not dependent upon physical appearance or medical procedures.
 
"gender expression differs from what is typically associated with the sex "

*shudders*

I hate all of this so much. Why can we not be ourselves without figuring out how we align with what is typically associated with whatever?
 
These 2 contradictary answers is the reason why I asked @Moglet. I think the misinformation and contradictary information out there is one of the reasons why there is not enough acceptance. People are afraid of what they dont understand.

I consider non binary under the trans umbrella but rarely use the term myself as it suggests a gender identity of the opposite you were assigned at birth which for non binary people is not the case.

You have raised a very good point with regards to the various terms and identities being confusing, especially as some people within the community are often quick to label someone a transphobe just because they don't have much knowledge of it. This is something I personally dislike and I'll always go out of my way to try and help someone understand what things mean or where they might trip up in conversation.

I even do it myself, just the other day I ended up calling another non binary person "she" rather than "they" just because of how the language has been ingrained into me.

"gender expression differs from what is typically associated with the sex "

*shudders*

I hate all of this so much. Why can we not be ourselves without figuring out how we align with what is typically associated with whatever?

That would be amazing, unfortunately society seems to love the idea of ensuring people have a gender label (just look at gendered products or anything aimed at boys or girls when they're infants) so I don't see it changing any time soon.
 
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I consider non binary under the trans umbrella but rarely use the term myself as it suggests a gender identity of the opposite you were assigned at birth which for non binary people is not the case.

You have raised a very good point with regards to the various terms and identities being confusing, especially as some people within the community are often quick to label someone a transphobe just because they don't have much knowledge of it. This is something I personally dislike and I'll always go out of my way to try and help someone understand what things mean or where they might trip up in conversation.

I even do it myself, just the other day I ended up calling another non binary person "she" rather than "they" just because of how the language has been ingrained into me.



That would be amazing, unfortunately society seems to love the idea of ensuring people have a gender label (just look at gendered products or anything aimed at boys or girls when they're infants) so I don't see it changing any time soon.
In the midst of raising a child just outside of his infancy and having raised an older child through it, I think gender neutrality has had the largest market there and has only grown in the last decade. Part of it driven by parents wanting to wait until a child is born to know the sex, but the recent pick up in the media has definitely shined a light on another market. I'd be willing to bet it's one of the fastest and most accepting market to the idea of gender neutrality.
 
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That would be amazing, unfortunately society seems to love the idea of ensuring people have a gender label (just look at gendered products or anything aimed at boys or girls when they're infants) so I don't see it changing any time soon.
I'm not sure if that's so much about wanting a label as it's about what has traditionally sold to which group.

In any case, if the labeling is so wrong, why contribute to keeping it around? I don't think it's such a hard sell to relax gender stereotypes a bit. I can't recall seeing pushback against that, but I have seen push back against less common gender classifications (not to imply that such stances are correct, just pointing out my own observations).
 
In any case, if the labeling is so wrong, why contribute to keeping it around?

Because what is the other option? Everyone identifies as agender? We have gender as an existing social construct; identifying in a certain way helps people with things like pronouns. I'd love to erase it completely but it's not realistic and I'm aware it's also a very selfish viewpoint. Most people have no issues with gender as it currently is.
 
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Because what is the other option? Everyone identifies as agender? We have gender as an existing social construct; identifying in a certain way helps people with things like pronouns. I'd love to erase it completely but it's not realistic.
Agender seeks similar
 
Because what is the other option? Everyone identifies as agender?
That sounds like a step in the right direction. I'd go further though and just not identify and get rid of gender entirely.

As I've mentioned in this thread before, gender as something separate from sex still confuses me. I don't me that as in "if you were born with male anatomy you're a male and nothing is ever going to change that". What I mean is that a being male or female is usually irrelevant to everyone, except maybe doctors. Telling me your sex/gender does not inform me of your personality or how to interact with you. Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding. If someone tells me that they are cisgender, how is that supposed to influence my interactions with them compared to them being non binary? If you reply to anything in this post I think answering this question would be the most helpful to me. My default stance is that I don't know anything about you until I learn through interacting with you. Giving me a gender identity up front just doesn't give me anything to go on. Not even cismale vs cisfemale. There is no meaningful difference between the two.

To explain a little more, what made me respond to your post was that it seemed to imply that gender isn't real, but just something humans have made up. People take on gender labels only to fit into these constructs. That to me sounds totally backwards. If gender is real, ie I should treat non binary people differently from males and both differently from females, then I can see a point in having a gender. Your post, as I interpreted it, doesn't suggest that to be the case.

We have gender as an existing social construct; identifying in a certain way helps people with things like pronouns. I'd love to erase it completely but it's not realistic and I'm aware it's also a very selfish viewpoint. Most people have no issues with gender as it currently is.
My experience is that erasing gender is actually pretty realistic. Maybe it can't be removed completely, but people are definitely willing to loosen the definitions of male and female vs what they were in the past.

On pronouns, they aren't the endgoal are they? Aren't they just markers to help people refer to you correctly? Being correctly gendered makes it easy to decide on what pronouns to use, I'll give you that, but that doesn't come across as the most important (I don't want to say it's unimportant) issue in having yourself represented accurately to others.

Agender seeks similar
I get that this is poking fun, but is "[fe]male seeking x", with no other information, any more informative or attractive as an advertisement for companionship? It tells you nothing.
 
It tells you nothing.

I think it's supposed to tell you what's between their legs, although I grant that it's not necessarily going to capture that as intended.

In the midst of raising a child just outside of his infancy and having raised an older child through it, I think gender neutrality has had the largest market there and has only grown in the last decade. Part of it driven by parents wanting to wait until a child is born to know the sex, but the recent pick up in the media has definitely shined a light on another market. I'd be willing to bet it's one of the fastest and most accepting market to the idea of gender neutrality.

But children are absolutely obsessed with it. They're going through the process of figuring out how to use the equipment in the bathroom, and they want to know everything about every other kid. Boy parts and girl parts are a huge delineation in preschool when it comes to bathroom use, which is an extremely common occurrence because of tiny bladders, and where mishaps abound.

I think for the most part the transgender community would be best served if everyone just chilled about what it means about you to be born with boy parts or girl parts. There are somewhat identifiable bins of childhood toys. And while I could pick bins like "building vs. artwork" I'm not entirely sure those are anywhere near as exclusive as the "beauty/nurturing vs. violence/sports" bins. Kids seem to separate themselves into those groups in a big way, and toy aisle is separated along those lines (with the occasional WTH thrown in... like cash registers and shopping carts... and there's also... ooooh, which aisle are you gonna put the vacuum in?). There is a sort of gender neutral aisle for building blocks and puzzles, where kids that are interested sports meet up with kids that are interested in dolls and find common ground.

So I don't even necessarily have a problem with the binning that happens in toy aisles. My girls are just not remotely interested in dinosaurs, soldiers, or guns. I've repeatedly tried taking them down that aisle and they just run through it on their way to their preferred toys. "Hey, what about this one with the soldier on the jeep with the gun in his hand and the dinosaurs and the fire truck" (yes that's a single toy). Nope, can't get the tiniest interest.

It's the part where we assume which aisle, or push toward a grouping, based on genitalia that we need to be careful about. To that end, we could label them something other than the "boy" aisle or the "girl" aisle. At a minimum we should help reduce the stigma of things like little boys playing with dolls.

I don't think there's anything wrong with using boy and girl (or male and female, or man and woman) as meaning whether you were born with a y chromosome. We should just treat it as only meaningful in a medical sense. To that end, the current transgender movement works against my preferred outcome here, by insisting on gender stereotypes.
 
I consider non binary under the trans umbrella but rarely use the term myself as it suggests a gender identity of the opposite you were assigned at birth which for non binary people is not the case.

You have raised a very good point with regards to the various terms and identities being confusing, especially as some people within the community are often quick to label someone a transphobe just because they don't have much knowledge of it. This is something I personally dislike and I'll always go out of my way to try and help someone understand what things mean or where they might trip up in conversation.

I even do it myself, just the other day I ended up calling another non binary person "she" rather than "they" just because of how the language has been ingrained into me.

It is very confusing to me. I can understand intersex (being both) and trans, but it is difficult to understand how someone is non-binary ? I considered Trans as transitioning from one to the other, but how can someone have no gender? Isnt that just A-sexual?

Why use "they"? I often use he/she, but understood that can be insulting to some people. Could you explain why?

How do you know they're not genuine?

They just seek attention.

They're not necessarily contradictory. I'd say it's relatively similar to the idea that queer is increasingly being used as an umbrella term in academia and some social circles. I may not describe myself personally as queer, but as a gay person, I'd fall under the umbrella of queer identities.

Someone who identifies as any sort of non-binary may not necessarily say 'hi I'm trans' but they'd fall under its use as an umbrella term.

For me this is confusing. Can I call a gay person queer? Or a Non binary person, Trans?
 
It is very confusing to me. I can understand intersex (being both) and trans, but it is difficult to understand how someone is non-binary ? I considered Trans as transitioning from one to the other, but how can someone have no gender? Isnt that just A-sexual?
Asexual is someone with no sexual desire. Agender is someone who has no gender. Non-binary is someone who does not believe that there are two exclusive genders (the binary states of being one gender or the other gender) and has characteristics of both.
 
I'll confess that logically, non-binary is the one that makes least sense to me as a definition. So, noob question, are non-binary folk bi-sexual by definition? Or do some non-binary folk exclusively prefer sex with someone who have the opposite set of genitals?
 
I'll confess that logically, non-binary is the one that makes least sense to me as a definition. So, noob question, are non-binary folk bi-sexual by definition? Or do some non-binary folk exclusively prefer sex with someone who have the opposite set of genitals?
I'm not aware that there's any direct correlation between sexual preference and "gender identity".
 
I'll confess that logically, non-binary is the one that makes least sense to me as a definition. So, noob question, are non-binary folk bi-sexual by definition? Or do some non-binary folk exclusively prefer sex with someone who have the opposite set of genitals?

In some regard, it strikes me as the most sensible. Given that it kinda says "I don't fit neatly in one of these stereotypes", which is basically what I think most people would say.
 
They just seek attention.

Again, how do you know that? Have you had conversations with them to try and learn why they behave or interact the way that they do? Or are you just assuming?

I can imagine that for someone who is non-binary, they've spent a lot of their life not feeling accepted. Perhaps you mistake seeking acceptance for seeking attention?
 
That sounds like a step in the right direction. I'd go further though and just not identify and get rid of gender entirely.

As I've mentioned in this thread before, gender as something separate from sex still confuses me. I don't me that as in "if you were born with male anatomy you're a male and nothing is ever going to change that". What I mean is that a being male or female is usually irrelevant to everyone, except maybe doctors.

You'd like to think so however it's still listed on passports, drivers licenses, bank accounts etc. and you have to jump through hoops to get that changed. In the UK you literally can't get your passport changed to anything except for male or female. Which means when I rock up to passport control with a feminine hairstyle and makeup on (and a ****ing fierce outfit) they're going to see male on my passport which adds awkwardness to a situation that doesn't need it.

I've heard of trans men with full beard getting their breasts removed still being referred to as "ma'am" because of this.

Telling me your sex/gender does not inform me of your personality or how to interact with you.

Maybe not in your case but it's apparently very important to some people. I know plenty of guys who would be very upset if a girl didn't tell them she was trans and he wanted to date her.

If someone tells me that they are cisgender, how is that supposed to influence my interactions with them compared to them being non binary? If you reply to anything in this post I think answering this question would be the most helpful to me. My default stance is that I don't know anything about you until I learn through interacting with you. Giving me a gender identity up front just doesn't give me anything to go on. Not even cismale vs cisfemale. There is no meaningful difference between the two.

It shouldn't influence your interactions at all besides the pronouns used. In an ideal world that's what would happen. Instead you get questions like "are you a boy or a girl?" and "are those womens clothes?" (No, they're mine)

To explain a little more, what made me respond to your post was that it seemed to imply that gender isn't real, but just something humans have made up. People take on gender labels only to fit into these constructs. That to me sounds totally backwards. If gender is real, ie I should treat non binary people differently from males and both differently from females, then I can see a point in having a gender. Your post, as I interpreted it, doesn't suggest that to be the case.

How are you defining "real"? We know gender exists because people use it daily all around the world. I may have worded one of my replies badly if it made you think that gender wasn't real, so I apologise for that. Gender is a very important thing for transgender folk who fit into the male or female side of things, less so for non-binary people.

On pronouns, they aren't the endgoal are they? Aren't they just markers to help people refer to you correctly? Being correctly gendered makes it easy to decide on what pronouns to use, I'll give you that, but that doesn't come across as the most important (I don't want to say it's unimportant) issue in having yourself represented accurately to others.

For many trans people pronouns and passing as their gender are the ultimate goal. I can't speak personally on the mental damage caused by the use of assigned gender at birth pronouns as I'm fine with using male pronouns, but I've spoken to lots of others who have really bad reactions to being mis-gendered.



It is very confusing to me. I can understand intersex (being both) and trans, but it is difficult to understand how someone is non-binary ? I considered Trans as transitioning from one to the other, but how can someone have no gender? Isnt that just A-sexual?

Someone with no gender is agender. Asexual refers to someone with no sexual feelings or motivations. Being Asexual is not related to gender identity.

Why use "they"? I often use he/she, but understood that can be insulting to some people. Could you explain why?

"They" has been used for many years and is already used more frequently than you'd think. Imagine you're driving with a partner and you see someone else driving along with a flat tyre but can't see them clearly. So you turn to your partner to tell them, what do you say? "Oh, they have a flat tyre!"

It's used when you don't know the gender of someone, so non-binary people prefer it. There are some other pronouns that are sometimes used but I can't recall them off the top of my head.

For me this is confusing. Can I call a gay person queer? Or a Non binary person, Trans?

Non-binary technically does fall under the transgender umbrella but it's not often used as it has an association with someone completely switching their gender. The use of the word "queer" is an interesting one as it's widely used within the LGBTQ+ community as a powerful word for self identification. Outside of that it depends on the context. I'd avoid it unless you're absolutely sure the person you're talking to won't find it offensive.

I'll confess that logically, non-binary is the one that makes least sense to me as a definition. So, noob question, are non-binary folk bi-sexual by definition? Or do some non-binary folk exclusively prefer sex with someone who have the opposite set of genitals?

That's a difficult one to answer as everyone feels differently. I consider myself fairly fluid in terms of gender (I have days where I feel way more masculine than feminine and vice versa) but I'm attracted to femininity and I'm married to a cisgender woman. I consider myself pansexual - Not limited in sexual choice with regard to biological sex, gender, or gender identity. I could say bisexual but that would exclude other non-binary people.
 
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In the UK you literally can't get your passport changed to anything except for male or female.

This is kind of amazing to me. Here in ultra-conservative and ultra-religious Utah, you can legally change your sex to "X" and have it show up on all state documents. Some people still complain, but it seems like a good way to represent people who don't identify are male or female even if it's a catch-all of sorts.

I know plenty of guys who would be very upset if a girl didn't tell them she was trans and he wanted to date her.

I'm not sure how I'd feel about this. While I certainly respect the rights of a trans person to be trans and identify however they want, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable entering a romantic relationship with someone who is. It's probably not "fair" to think that way, but I just don't think I'm progressive enough to be OK with the dynamics of that relationship. However, I don't think it's wrong for someone who is trans to get into a relationship with someone who isn't.
 
This is kind of amazing to me. Here in ultra-conservative and ultra-religious Utah, you can legally change your sex to "X" and have it show up on all state documents. Some people still complain, but it seems like a good way to represent people who don't identify are male or female even if it's a catch-all of sorts.

You can read a bit more on it here: https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/06/...s-high-court-battle-for-non-binary-passports/

The UK is pretty far behind a lot of other places when it comes to non-binary recognition: https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/07/14/non-binary-rights-countries-better-than-uk/

I'm not sure how I'd feel about this. While I certainly respect the rights of a trans person to be trans and identify however they want, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable entering a romantic relationship with someone who is. It's probably not "fair" to think that way, but I just don't think I'm progressive enough to be OK with the dynamics of that relationship. However, I don't think it's wrong for someone who is trans to get into a relationship with someone who isn't.

I think it's completely fair to feel that way, everyone has their own preferences when it comes to romantic partners.
 
HOW? You have the right to be in a relationship you're comfortable in!

That's why I put fair in quotes. I think many people would see it as unfair to simply dismiss someone who is MtF trans as a potential partner in a relationship. For all intents and purposes, a MtF trans person is female and she's had gender reassignment surgery, you might not even know (at least at first). I suppose it would be like dismissing someone who's Asian simply because they're Asian, even if they check all the other boxes for you in a relationship.

I guess it's hard to explain. But to narrow it down a bit, I don't think there's anything wrong with it being "unfair" and I fully agree with being in a relationship that makes you comfortable.
 
It shouldn't influence your interactions at all besides the pronouns used. In an ideal world that's what would happen.
OK that clears things up a bit, we're on the same page.

Instead you get questions like "are you a boy or a girl?" and "are those womens clothes?" (No, they're mine)
I can definitely see the frustration from this if it's repeated over and over, or worse done in a condescending manner over and over. Though I still lean toward the problem being the continued use of stereotypes above everything else. Even if someone is cisgender they can still face a similar issue. Some people will just assume you conform to a given stereotype think they can infer many things about you when they can't.



How are you defining "real"?
Real as in there is a biological basis for it in every individual. Something you can measure, even if not easily.

We know gender exists because people use it daily all around the world. I may have worded one of my replies badly if it made you think that gender wasn't real, so I apologise for that. Gender is a very important thing for transgender folk who fit into the male or female side of things, less so for non-binary people.
Gender as a social construct certainly exists, but if it's only a construct, I feel like it shouldn't be treated as something firm and binding. That is what I think leads to the problem you mentioned above ("are you a boy or a girl?" and "are those womens clothes?") for both LGBTQ+ and non LGBTQ+. From a practical standpoint though, I do see the appeal of just fitting in to the system in place.
 
I'm not aware that there's any direct correlation between sexual preference and "gender identity".

Perhaps it's just how I see sexuality ('the opposite', 'the same', 'either', or 'neither' / hetero, homo, bi, A-). If I state myself as a heterosexual male (sexuality - gender), it's simple to understand my partner would not be a homosexual male or female (for instance). I was wondering if stating that a non-binary person was either a heterosexual (opposite) or homosexual (same) undermined their gender since it assumes one state in order for them to be attracted to the same or opposite, therefore leaving bisexual or Asexual as the only two 'safe' options (if we're applying labels)

Not trying to pick fault, just curious.
 
Again, how do you know that? Have you had conversations with them to try and learn why they behave or interact the way that they do? Or are you just assuming?

I can imagine that for someone who is non-binary, they've spent a lot of their life not feeling accepted. Perhaps you mistake seeking acceptance for seeking attention?

Someone near my group of friends, that has changed his gender identity multiple times. And i am certain he enjoys the attention.

Someone with no gender is agender. Asexual refers to someone with no sexual feelings or motivations. Being Asexual is not related to gender identity.



"They" has been used for many years and is already used more frequently than you'd think. Imagine you're driving with a partner and you see someone else driving along with a flat tyre but can't see them clearly. So you turn to your partner to tell them, what do you say? "Oh, they have a flat tyre!"

It's used when you don't know the gender of someone, so non-binary people prefer it. There are some other pronouns that are sometimes used but I can't recall them off the top of my head.


Non-binary technically does fall under the transgender umbrella but it's not often used as it has an association with someone completely switching their gender. The use of the word "queer" is an interesting one as it's widely used within the LGBTQ+ community as a powerful word for self identification. Outside of that it depends on the context. I'd avoid it unless you're absolutely sure the person you're talking to won't find it offensive.

thanks for the insight and explanation. I dont know many people that are LGBTQ and that probably has to do with my asian background.

I think "they" just doesnt translate well in my language.

Thanks for the explanation. As you already pointed out, it doesnt help that the community themselves have trouble "labeling" yet some can find offence in mislabeling even when there is no malicious intent. Like within ethnic groups, slurs its kind of unanimous what is offensive and what not. Are there any definitive answers to the definion of LGBTQ+?
 
We know gender exists because people use it daily all around the world.

This is interesting thread for people from cultures where gender doesn't really exist, in every culture there are some expectations for males and females in society, but that's only expectation. English culture is trying to give label on something that can't be labeled because everybody is an individual.
 
This is interesting thread for people from cultures where gender doesn't really exist, in every culture there are some expectations for males and females in society, but that's only expectation. English culture is trying to give label on something that can't be labeled because everybody is an individual.

In some languages there is no seperate word for "gender" (as in identity). They use sex and gender interchangebly. I am curious if other languages make that difference though.
 
This is interesting thread for people from cultures where gender doesn't really exist, in every culture there are some expectations for males and females in society, but that's only expectation. English culture is trying to give label on something that can't be labeled because everybody is an individual.
On that bombshell, I speak Spanish too, not perfect but, I'd be fine if I went to Mexico. That said, they have specific words depending on if you are talking to a man or woman/boy or girl. Do we need to change the entire worlds languages?

For example:
Pendejo(male) pendeja(female) both mean dumbass.

*Please don't give me another infraction, I'm just giving an example.
 
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On that bombshell, I speak Spanish too, not perfect but, I'd be fine if I went to Mexico. That said, they have specific words depending on if you are talking to a man or woman/boy or girl. Do we need to change the entire worlds languages?

For example:
Pendejo(male) pendeja(female) both mean dumbass. Please don't give me anther infraction, I'm just giving an example.

You make a good point how does "they" work in other languages ?
 
That said, they have specific words depending on if you are talking to a man or woman/boy or girl. Do we need to change the entire worlds languages?

I reckon primary speakers of that language are capable of coming up with their own solutions, whether than means inventing their own non-gendered word (the use of the word "shim" (she+him) in the TV show Shameless comes to mind), or recognizing the gendered nature of their language and simply asking to be referred to by the one of their choosing. I don't think anybody has suggested "changing entire languages."

You make a good point how does "they" work in other languages ?

I'm not fluent in Spanish, but I know some. "Ellas" = they/them if you're referring to a woman, or a group that's entirely women. "Ellos" = they/them if you're referring to a man, or a group that has at least one male member.

So, the language already dictates that "ellos" can serve a neutral purpose, even though it's the "masculine" version of the word. Perhaps non-binary folks in Spanish-speaking languages would just utilize that already extant flexibility?
 

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